The W3C Credentials Community Group

Verifiable Claims and Digital Verification

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Credentials CG Telecon

Minutes for 2015-01-13

Sunny Lee is scribing.
Manu Sporny: Agenda today we have update on webpayments f2f and how credentials integrate into that
Manu Sporny: We have reports from subgroups
Manu Sporny: Any other agenda items?

Topic: Web Payments Face-to-Face

Manu Sporny: First up is webpayments f2f
Manu Sporny: Robobank is a big international bank in the Netherlands, meeting will be there:
Manu Sporny: These are the use cases they're working on:
Manu Sporny: We need to make sure our use cases are integrated into web payments work, do the bulk of the work here and then integrate with them
Manu Sporny: Meeting on Feb 2 - 4 in Utrecht, planning on making strong push to get credentials use cases to get integrated in some way
Manu Sporny: Use cases document is in pretty good shape. We need to make sure that this group understands what we're trying to do at that meeting
Nate Otto: The Web Payments use cases doc is a good one.
Nate Otto: I didn't know of an integration plan.
Eric Korb: New to me
Manu Sporny: Is this new to folks, if so please speak up
Kerri Lemoie: New to me too
Dave Longley: Plan is not new to me, sounds good
Manu Sporny: This is new to a number of people
Manu Sporny: During web payments f2f in Santa Clara, a number of orgs showed up from Ed world, ETS, Verisign, Accreditrust, came to web payments and said there's a credential issue and they'd like to take on the bulk of the credential work. This happend in Oct 2014
Manu Sporny: Web payments group has since been focusing on payments with strong verifiable credentiail so you can prove who people are. First f2f was last Oct, next is in Feb 2015.
Manu Sporny: What's happening in Feb is to convince web payments IG, official group within w3c, the credential cg is going to make a strong push to have our roadmap and use cases doc and tech we're working on, become a part of the set of technologies that the web payments group proposes to be officially standardized by w3c.
Nate Otto: Thanks for the recap, Manu
Dave Longley: Might help to quickly clarify that w3c process recommends some groups to officially work on official work
Manu Sporny: 2 Processes to start official work at w3c
Manu Sporny: W3C member company proposes a new activity is created, say a company says w3c should do something with credentials, then w3c gives 4 - 6 mo lead, get people interested, have workshop, 3 - 6 mo later, they'll charter Interest Group to charter creation of an official WG, which happens another 6 months later.
Manu Sporny: We don't want to wait 18 mo to start stuff we're talking about in this group
Manu Sporny: Web payments group has gone through 12 of the 18 months into the process. we're trying to piggyback on the web payment group's work.
Manu Sporny: We don't want to wait, they absolutely need credential piece. This will help us get more support for credential stuff if it were looped in with payments rather than doing this on our own.
Kerri Lemoie: Makes good sense - thanks
Manu Sporny: Any qs on w3c process or why we're trying to hook into web payments work?
Nate Otto: Clearly explained, thanks.
Mark Leuba: Makes sense
Manu Sporny: We have a critical meeting in Feb where we're pushing for this. Belaboring this point to make sure everyone in this group is for this approach.
Manu Sporny: Please make your objections loud before Feb meeting.
Mary Bold: Is a warm reception expected?
Manu Sporny: Any other qs?
Manu Sporny: Yeah it should because without credential problem solves, can't do high value high stakes payments and the group has not been working on the credentialing at all.
Manu Sporny: This is not coming to the web payments group without warning.
Mary Bold: Filling a gap is a fine approach. You will be telling us about agenda, right?
Manu Sporny: Agenda is still being created. In fact just had a call about the agenda. Review our roadmap doc and/or use cases and review work on signatures.
Sunny Lee: What do think the results of that meeting are going to be? [scribe assist by Manu Sporny]
Nate Otto: For Open Badges, a spec already being used in the wild: what is the impact of including our credentials use cases (that incorporate some existing functions of open badges) into an already chartered group?
Manu Sporny: If everything goes according to plan, web payments IG will absorb credential CG's use cases. Once those use cases are in there, that puts a stake in the ground
Manu Sporny: Credential use cases will be part of a uses cases release that is 1 - 2 months later. After picking up credential use cases web payments are on the hook to make a proposal on how to tackle the use cases.
Sunny Lee: Yep
Manu Sporny: Split up into data format and protocol. As far as we align on data format, we should be able to do that in the next few months, we'll be in good shape. We're using JSON-LD and obi created vocabulary in json-ld context. As far as protocol, still uncertain. We have backpack federation issue, identity transfer...big question mark...
Manu Sporny: Need to understand what BA wants for the protocol. Including our use cases has a lot of upsides.
Manu Sporny: Now that you've identified the problem, what technologies exist out there? OBI stuff is one such thing. Identity credentials is another one. OpenID and OpenID Connect is yet another one. Then we need to figure which one of these gets reused to solve the problem.
Nate Otto: BA wants to revisit protocol for backpack federation because a lot of stakeholders have specific needs that need to be improved. Say Cities of Learning under 13 learners
Nate Otto: Wouldn't want to change anything that causes any further work or confusion.
Manu Sporny: All this stuff is moving quickly and in parallel. Impossible to predict the future. The only thing we can try and promise is to coordinate as much as possible to create as little misalignment as possible.
Nate Otto: Do you think going forward with this strategy, piggybacking on the web payments, gets in the way of going faster?
Manu Sporny: The more market verticals we involve the higher the chance of success for the core technology, but the slower we move.
Nate Otto: Have particular things we'd like to get done this year to help folks having trouble with the backpack being more centralized than initially intended. Will likely be a BA priority this year. We'll move forward with all these issues in mind. And be collaborative and open.
Eric Korb: As Nate is talking about specific issues we're trying to address, it's difficult to try to cover the back of all the projects asking for specific things. We have to understand that we have to build things to patch things but not build things that put us in a corner.
Eric Korb: Waiting on a communication layer on our platform. in the mean time, just patching in between. That effects our customer base.
Eric Korb: Don't think it's reasonable to expect us to solve this problem worldwide by this summer.
Manu Sporny: One of the core features of w3c is extensibility.
Nate Otto: Yes, "solve" would be overly optimistic --
Nate Otto: "Experiment in a positive direction" is my hope
Manu Sporny: With json-ld extensibility is in there from day 1. Same goes for protocols. The only way to make progress on this is to figure out core of the comm protocol and data format and extend that.
Manu Sporny: There's gonna be a certain amount of effort, where we prototype some of the experimental features, if someone comes up with features that seem like a good candidate for standardization we'll coalesce around that.
Manu Sporny: Eg. let's say NateOtto has a deliverable by this summer and needs to figure out improvements to the backpack. what NateOtto implements is generalizable enough that it can be applied to health care and payments as well. He proposes it, group discusses, and the feature can be standardized.
Manu Sporny: Creating a standard is a long drawn out process.
Nate Otto: Haha, I don't think you would get Manu to say creating rock solid standards is easy.
Manu Sporny: We have a chunk of technologies that are out there that work. we have a core of things that can be standardized. It's true that the backpack federation isn't figured out but there might be badges data formats that we can all agree on. We can move on pieces quickly.
Manu Sporny: Any qs?
Nate Otto: Thanks, that sounds good for some of my concerns.
Manu Sporny: As always this is an ongoing convo.
Manu Sporny: We'll jump into deliverables. these are important because it provides a roadmap for the other groups outside of this comm to try and understand what we're trying to accomplish.
Manu Sporny: Next bit of work is linked data signatures
Manu Sporny: All of these docs we're about to talk about are there to communicate externally where we're headed.

Topic: Linked Data Signatures

Manu Sporny: Dave Longley is lead, can you give us an overview of where we are?
Dave Longley: Most of the work for this is waiting on me to do spec editing on RDF dataset. have updated intro on the spec
Dave Longley: The spec has been woefully out of date. 4 diff implementations in 4 diff languages.
Dave Longley: The intro details what the spec is for, main algorithm is also in there. will be filling in details for other meatier parts.
Dave Longley: I'll be working to get more of the spec done. Very technical work.
Manu Sporny: Also been talking with w3c staff on pass forward for this spec. The reason why we need this spec is because we need it to do digital signatures. The spec is more or less done. We just need to update it to shove it into a w3c process.
Manu Sporny: Feel we can fast track this and move it into existing working group.
Manu Sporny: RDF data set normalization will not go into a credential since expertise to do this spec well is different than the skillset within the credential wg.

Topic: JSON-LD Credentials Context/Vocabulary Update

Nate Otto: Has all the vocab that open badges community has been using.
Nate Otto: We also have the json-ld context file that you can use to build your open badges and other credential document.
Manu Sporny: The document looks great. Fantastic progress.
Manu Sporny: Part of the work here is to do document reviews. This looks like it's in good enough shape to do a doc review.
Nate Otto: Yes, this is now open for document review, and would love for a couple folks on this call to take a pass through
Manu Sporny: Any volunteers to do a review on this doc?
Brian Sletten: I'll review the document.
Nate Otto: Thanks, bsletten
Manu Sporny: I'll do a review too.
Manu Sporny: Any other reviewers?
Manu Sporny: Once you do the review, send all feedback to the mailing list and we'll process it there.
Manu Sporny: You get review comments in, at w3c you have to respond to every singe comment/question.
Nate Otto: Build some good habits now
Manu Sporny: As a community group, technically we don't have to do that but it's good practice.
Nate Otto: Need to take off but thanks and look forward to comments.
Manu Sporny: Anything else on the vocab?
Sunny Lee: Kerri has also been helping w/ the editing. Looking forward to comments/review. [scribe assist by Manu Sporny]

Topic: Roadmap Update

Mark Leuba: Made good progress since we started this before the holidays
Mark Leuba: Please take a look at the google doc, if you don't have access, e-mail me.
Mark Leuba: Thanks for your input manu
Mark Leuba: Next is to establish some targets
Mark Leuba: Appreciate Nate Otto helping with credential vocab
Mark Leuba: Simple use cases in the initial section of the doc, we could probably expand upon the work place civil society ... if someone wanted to add to the other 3 or the education one, that would be helpful.
Manu Sporny: Is the doc ready for review?
Mark Leuba: Only thing I'd like to resolve is terminology for credentialee. Default would be to keep current terminology. Each of which have certain downsides. Beyond that think it's ready for review.
Manu Sporny: Do you want to give it another week and then jump in and review next week?
Mark Leuba: This is not my document, it's a team effort.
Manu Sporny: Tim Holborn and Pindar Wong have also weighed in on the doc. They're in the web payments group but they clearly have interest. Their input is important in addition they're based in Asia Pacific so that can provide a different perspective.
Manu Sporny: Any qs on the roadmap doc?
Manu Sporny: Question: in the web payments IG, we have a payment agent that can execute transactions on your behalf. I would imagine similarly, credential agent can receive and process credentials.
Manu Sporny: Once we've created that in web payments IG, we've broken down the phases of a transaction (earn credential, assign credential, request credential, etc.) and this process was helpful.
Manu Sporny: Certain companies are only interested in certain phases.
Manu Sporny: These are all different phases, can say they're all different use cases, wonder if we should talk about the different phases of earning credentials and receiving one.
Manu Sporny: I understand there's a higher overview but maybe having something time-based would also be useful.
Mark Leuba: There are so many use cases that you describe. You're saying show a series of sequential use cases?
Manu Sporny: Let's say earning a credential that is fairly generic. There may be 20 different use cases on how you earn a credential. eg. work on a farm, take the SATs, take a shop class. All these are about doing an activity and earning a credential. It's this high level thing of doing an activity and earning a credential. That we might want to put in a high level roadmap doc.
Mary Bold: Sounds like what you're suggesting is simplest workflow.
Mark Leuba: Marybold and I are working on this together.
Mary Bold: Can think about one schematic.
Manu Sporny: Big +1 from me.
Dave Longley: Credential agent, think it's good to have things broken out into different parts. If we have a credential agent doing everything together...
Manu Sporny: Credential agent doesn't have to do everything.
Dave Longley: What's the advantage of saying there's a credential agent?
Manu Sporny: Because none are the actual piece of software. this is the way the web payments group seems to be structuring their work. The closer we map our work with theirs, it's easier for them to integrate the work.
Mark Leuba: There's a credential service that is a software program.
Manu Sporny: Would argue that a company runs a program and within that program there might be credential agent.
Manu Sporny: This is a barely formed idea so we need to hammer on it some more.
Manu Sporny: Anything else we should cover in the remaining seconds?
Manu Sporny: Thanks everyone for a very productive call. please continue to work on your docs. Will be showing them to web payments IG in the beginning of Feb. Please focus on the bits you think will have the most impact.