The W3C Credentials Community Group

Verifiable Claims and Digital Verification

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Credentials CG Telecon

Minutes for 2018-04-10

Agenda
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-credentials/2018Apr/0025.html
Topics
  1. Introductions
  2. Next Week - Crypto Tuesdays - ZKLang
  3. Action Items
  4. MyData Panel at Helsinki
  5. Work items - DID Spec and DID Methods
  6. IIW26 Report Out
  7. Verifiable Claims WG Meeting
Action Items
  1. Chairs to add CCG Stories to work items.
Organizer
Joe Andrieu, Kim Hamilton Duffy, Christopher Allen
Scribe
Lionel Wolberger
Present
Joe Andrieu, Lionel Wolberger, Kim Hamilton Duffy, Christopher Allen, Heather Vescent, Manu Sporny, Dan Greening, Derek Munneke, Yancy Ribbens, Ed Eykholt, Chris Boscolo, Jeff Orgel, Lucas Parker, Anthony Ronning, Drummond Reed, Mike Lodder, Dave Longley, Moses Ma, Nathan George, Chris Webber, Andrew Hughes, Cherie Duncan, Greg Linklater, Ted Thibodeau, David Chadwick, David I. Lehn, Shadan Kam, Kyle Den Hartog, Nate Otto, Christian Lundkvist
Audio Log
Joe Andrieu: These calls are open to the public, anyone can participate... if you have not agreed to IPR policy, don't provide substantive contributions. [scribe assist by Manu Sporny]
Lionel Wolberger is scribing.
Heather Vescent: There is some background noise.
Manu Sporny: New conference bridge! Cross fingers, hope it holds up.
Heather Vescent: Someone needs to mute. There is background chatter.
Joe Andrieu: Agenda, intro's, current actions

Topic: Introductions

Dan Greening: Computer scientist, working with Moses and others to improve the market for DIDs
Derek Munneke: Work at Meeco, Personal Data Solution.
Yancy Ribbens: Been lurking, but first time doing an intro. Work at Pearson VUE.
Ed Eykholt: Pythia -- working with RChain, scheduled for ship in Dec
Chris Boscolo: Working on identity solution on distributed ledger
Jeff Orgel: First call, was @ IIW. Digital anthropologist, looking at ways identity evolves.
... attentive to the "human operating system" that is the foundation of the stack. Watching the interplay.
Lucas Parker: Hi, Lucas Parker, work with Kim at Learning Machine as a software developer.
Anthony Ronning: Hi, Anthony Ronning, also from Learning Machine

Topic: Next Week - Crypto Tuesdays - ZKLang

Joe Andrieu: Summer, bring in developers.
... next week Jan to attend "Crypto Tuesday"
Drummond Reed: Voip
Kim Hamilton Duffy: Crypto Tuesday will be devoted to selective disclosure.
... ZKLang
Manu Sporny: Any relationship to KD Lang? :P
Kim Hamilton Duffy: Has a lot of verifiable credentials examples throughout
... Good opportunity for questions.
Mike Lodder: Working with Jann. High level view of ZKLang, give developers a simpler language for implementing ZK proofs
... math heavy, but actually is a simpler implementation
... wraps different methods into a common language to be used

Topic: Action Items

Manu Sporny: DID method spec, almost published... Many pull requests pending.
... will take rest of April. Good progress.
Kim Hamilton Duffy: Created github issues for each step to be done.

Topic: MyData Panel at Helsinki

Joe Andrieu: Markus around to report status?
Dave Longley: Due by April 19th I believe
Manu Sporny: Markus has shared via email, that there is time to add session topics to the Helsinki conference.
... Markus has a session setup devoted to these topics.
Ed Eykholt: I'm interested in this. ed.eykholt@pithia.com
Drummond Reed: I strongly encourage CCG members to attend if you can and submit CCG talks for MyData2018.
Manu Sporny: Breakout session focused on non-tech people (philosophy, humanities, UX) --
... good progress there and we some people attending here as a result.

Topic: Work items - DID Spec and DID Methods

Lionel Wolberger: Lots of Chairs to do things in Action Items... is that being progressed. DID Use Cases, DID Charter, etc. [scribe assist by Manu Sporny]
Kim Hamilton Duffy: Yes, chairs need to follow up in earnest this week
Joe Andrieu: "Chairs" actions remain on the list. Some will be reported on in the IIW report-out
Kim Hamilton Duffy: Occupational VCs. Reviewed paper around alignment of VCs and Open Badges
... options how to structure the Verfiable Credentials envelope
... leaning towards an option that makes good sense
... Minutes to follow from Kim, soon.
... add to work items, Kim did a pull request on the methods spec.
Manu Sporny: +1 For initial skeleton version, update w/ dates.
Manu Sporny: DID working group charter being worked on.
... Some discussion on a DID Working Group at W3C. May announce in W3C Plenary.
... if it is to happen, lots of work to complete and key milestones/events to meet on the way
... But people, NOTE-- the interest in DID that is generating 'rumors' or thoughts of other groups doing a DID working group
Kim Hamilton Duffy: Thanks @manu; will do
... NOTE that this could harm the process of getting the WG going at W3C.
... Let's allow the W3C process to complete, we need this to happen at the right time, and based on the right deployments of the spec and so on
Mike Lodder: COmpleted Sovrin DID method spec, published in the Sovrin foundations git repo

Topic: IIW26 Report Out

Drummond Reed: Just FYI, just for the record, I have an action item to complete my issues and PRs on the DID spec.
Joe Andrieu: Work item -- drum up W3C Member company support for DID WG.
... 3 companies were very receptive and supportive. Good start.
... Window of six months to onboard them.
Manu Sporny: Breakout session @ IIW.
... Triggered by a piece by Samantha. She expressed, 'my background is not STEM but I want to participate'
... Session to humanize DIDs and engage philo, humanities, UX people
... Heather is interested, Jeff attended this call ;could inolove Samantha, Denise
... outcome: a focus on stories.
Moses Ma: "Humanizing DIDs" is brilliant
Manu Sporny: Stories that explain what we are trying to achieve here.
... explainers, stories, fables, sagas-- open a wide tent including the format (word, git, PDF)
... Next step Heather, Jeff, Manu strategize on how to engage these people and reap what they produce
ACTION: Chairs to add CCG Stories to work items.
Joe Andrieu: Add to work items: Add stories.
Lionel Wolberger: I'm interested in Veres One working session? [scribe assist by Manu Sporny]
Heather Vescent: Kim - I can totally make [School House Rock for VCs and DIDs] happen, just need some funding and have some convos.
Drummond Reed: There was a Sovrin discussion, overview, along with the DID methods under development.
... DKMS demo was shown, the same that was done at DHS
... largest session was explaining ZK proofs using only Japanese high school math
Dan Greening: ^^ Is a transcription
Manu Sporny: Veres One did a number of sessions at IIW.
Manu Sporny: We did a Verifiable Credentials and DIDs Primer: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1GMQy4rI093c_9zojwLRgp2r-fTscpDUSfX-wqwBk4j4
Manu Sporny: We did a DID Methods Lightning Talk series: http://iiw.idcommons.net/DID_Ledger_Lightening_Talks
Drummond Reed: The link to the DKMS Design and Architecture document that was released by Evernym to the Hyperledger Indy repository is https://github.com/hyperledger/indy-sdk/blob/master/doc/dkms/DKMS%20Design%20and%20Architecture%20V3.md
... primer on DIDs and VCs. Well attended.
... Lightning Talk style presentations on DID methods as they are being implemented. Nathn on Sovrin. UPort presented. IPFS. Veres.One
... deep dives followed. Evernym/Sovrin did one. Veres.One did a deep dive on governance and performance.
Manu Sporny: They had 250+ people at this IIW
Manu Sporny: Normally, they have around 180
Joe Andrieu: IIW was very well attended.
... In addition to the usual philosophy and high level discussion, there was detailed discussion of DIDs, CCG, self-sovereign identity
Nathan George: There were many interesting sessions with reasonable notes (one example http://iiw.idcommons.net/User-Controlled_GDPR_Consent_Cookie)
... ChrisA polled the room to see if this was "NOT" reasonable, and Joe was pleased to see half the number of responses
... There are some "anti-" and skeptical folks, who don't see how blockchain is a practical solution
... but the overall indication was real engagement and positive reactions, traction, to the proposed uses of Blockchain that we are discussing
Joe Andrieu: Point of clarification: the Verifiable CLaims Working Group is a different group

Topic: Verifiable Claims WG Meeting

Manu Sporny: Minutes themselves: https://www.w3.org/2018/04/06-vcwg-minutes.html
Manu Sporny: We had good attendance-- a good sign
.... extensibility was highlighted and we understand now that we need to clarify this
... clarify how Sovrin does its proofs, and signatures do that in credentials and DIDs
... Did Auth discussions at IIW
... interesting ideas about hardware-backed keys participating in signature generation
Dave Longley: (And doing it on the Web)
Dave Longley: (Web API)
... critical for high stakes/high value transactions, e.g. high cost governmental interactions
... W3C extended their hands and were interested in contributing in order to add that layer of security
... solid progress overall
... some more subtle issues surrounding philosophy and design really benefited from the face to face time
Manu Sporny: VCWG face to face issue tracker: https://github.com/w3c/vc-data-model/issues
Drummond Reed: +1 To Manu's point that there was great progress in seeing a path for how Sovrin verifiable credentials that use ZKP can fit within the standard definition of VCs that the WG is creating.
Joe Andrieu: Face to faces are extremely valuable for the subtle work. So hey, get on a train/plane/bus and come on over!
Drummond Reed: +1 To Joe's point about how much progress can be made at F2F meetings.
Joe Andrieu: Next TPAC with expected big push...
Lionel Wolberger: Face to face -- there are other venues. Is Consensus in NYC going to attract DID folks? [scribe assist by Manu Sporny]
Lionel Wolberger: Who is attending Consensus in May, NYC
Manu Sporny: Veres One won't be at Consensus.
Manu Sporny: Sherry_from_Dominode: We'll be there w/ a booth.
Drummond Reed: Drummond will be at Consensus - and a number of other folks from the Sovrin Foundation.
Moses Ma: It's Cherie Duncan
Lionel Wolberger: Impact of changes in impact of Facebook? More interest? [scribe assist by Manu Sporny]
Nathan George: Also a note that many folks will be at the European Identity Conference that runs the same time as Consensus
Lionel Wolberger: Comment on the Facebook personal data leak issues and its impact...
Joe Andrieu: More a shift in Twitter debates (as opposed to FB)
... This was more an outside IIW, but it is getting clear that some things broken in FB can be fixed by DIDs
Chris Webber: I'm here
Andrew Hughes: Twitter is the focus of a debate about verifiable credentials
... self sovereign identity is attracting interest in multiple threads
Drummond Reed: Andrew is right - there is still a lot of confusion about self-sovereign identity and verifiable credentials. The Twitter threads are good evidence of that.
Moses Ma: A couple of notable media companies have asked me to assemble a webinar/podcast about how DIDs might fix Facebook's problems. If anyone has ideas about this, I'd love to hear from you.
Heather Vescent: Can someone link to the twitter thread?
... people in the user-centric movement are trying to reconcile latest developments
... looking at the similarities and new features e.g. cryptographic proofs, and the latter does show that there is some innovation and something new here
Drummond Reed: The thread on Twitter is indeed engaging the user-centric folks (openID, UMA, SAML)
... surprising amount of push back and lack of understanding differentiating between that (openID, UMA, SAML) and DIDs
... solutions and working code will help
... FB issues: IIW did have some conversations. And Sovrin is experiencing more inbound interest, Kaliya's article helped.
SSI = self-sovereign identity
Chris Webber: I work on ActivityPub
... we see an uptick in people involved with the federated social networks
... alternatives are in place to catch people who are now looking
... current interfaces are more like Twitter, less like FB
... but these use a small portion of the technologies discussed here
... DIDs are not used (obviously)
... for those interested, look at Social Community Group
Chris Webber: Could you send a link to some of your work on decentralized social networks? [scribe assist by Ed Eykholt]
.... This FB incident is an extreme screwup, but this is not a unique event. FB/Twitter leaks will continue to drive interest in us
Manu Sporny: Urges us to focus on what has to be done to serve the upcoming opportunities
Drummond Reed: +1 To Chris' point that the migration from centralized social networks to decentralized social networks is going to take years, and that it will have many small milestones, not one huge leap.
... use cases, architectural review, privacy review...
... these are critical milestones and if we miss we will not make the TPAC requirements
Andrew Hughes: Heathervescent, start here and follow down https://twitter.com/coindesk/status/982076954336808961
Andrew Hughes: Heathervescent, also here: https://twitter.com/bobblakley/status/983345568725553152
Joe Andrieu: Twitter engagement is bringing UMA, SAML advocates to look at the DID/VC work and dialog with this group
... Issue: conflation of SSI ideology (political movement reclaiming human authority) with SSI mechanisms (systems, technological manifestations/implementations)
... Focusing on untangling these two issues can help move forward the conversation
... as there are $$$$Billions already invested in IT that will need to work with these new systems
Joe Andrieu: Proposed, upload twitter threads as stories
Lionel Wolberger: <Clapping for first story experiment!>
Joe Andrieu: Sovrin method spec, propose to review on a call
... next week ZKLang focus
Moses Ma: Bye people
Kim Hamilton Duffy: Bye!
Joe Andrieu: Cheers all