Joe Andrieu: We're going to go over the standard stuff... most of the conversation willb e about TPAC planning. We have a session on Tuesday, some stuff on Wednesday. ✪
Snorre Lothar von Gohren Edwin: Snorre from Diwala - I'm a DIF member. ✪
Snorre Lothar von Gohren Edwin: No probs :) I might have gone under the name vongohren :) ✪
Joe Andrieu: Ah-hah! It's an identity problem. ;) ✪
Matt Stone: Hi Matt Stone, one of the Chairs of the Verifiable Claims WG... been working in this area for a while. Used to work for Pearson Acclaim... haven't dialed in in a while, dialing in now. :) ✪
Topic: Announcements / Reminders
Joe Andrieu: W3C TPAC is coming up... Oct 23rd - Oct 26th. If you're going and you haven't registered, you need to do so soon. IIW is going on at the same time, some of us will be there. ✪
Christopher Allen: December 10th and 11th, 2018; Location Microsoft Building 27, Redmond, WA ✪
Manu Sporny: The purpose of the workshop is to align standards initiatives around strong authentication and identity. So DIDs will be a big part of the discussion, VCs as well. WebAuthn and privacy. Things of that nature. [scribe assist by Dave Longley] ✪
Manu Sporny: It's happening Dec 10-11th in Building 27 on the Microsoft Campus in Redmond, WA. If you care about this stuff and you can join, please do. Usually you have to submit a position statement, 1-3 pages, the group gets back to you. Pretty much anyone can attend. [scribe assist by Dave Longley] ✪
Manu Sporny: DIDs and verifiable claims/credentials, web auth, privacy, etc dec 10-11th building 27 microsoft campus redmond washington [scribe assist by Samantha Mathews Chase] ✪
Samantha Mathews Chase: Strong authentication and identity workshop going on ✪
Samantha Mathews Chase: ... If you care about this stuff please attend, write paper to join ✪
Manu Sporny: Sometimes they close it to journalists because the big companies get touchy. When journalists are there changes engagement. [scribe assist by Dave Longley] ✪
Manu Sporny: If you care about Strong AuthN and Identity please attend. A mix between RWoT, IIW, and the more formal conferences as far as what to expect somewhere in the middle of those types of things. [scribe assist by Dave Longley] ✪
Manu Sporny: Any questions? [scribe assist by Dave Longley] ✪
Joe Andrieu: Attendance is limited to 70 people, it's invitation only, please apply and show up... first come first served. ✪
Topic: Progress on Action/Work Items
Joe Andrieu: Scribe training - Kim has published a video. ✪
Kim Hamilton Duffy: We had a scribe training, posted video for that, will update w/ clarifications that Manu made. ✪
Kim Hamilton Duffy: I updated the IRC commands Github page, will post a link for that later... will try to organize it along the lines of "if you're scribing"... "if you're attending", etc. ✪
Kim Hamilton Duffy: IRC command reference should be more useful now. ✪
Samantha Mathews Chase: Thanks for all that kim, very helpful!! ✪
Joe Andrieu: Spec text training... I tried to watch the raw video again, it's difficult. Andrew, is there some way we can do an edited version of that? ✪
Andrew Hughes: It's just going to take time to mark it up and chop it up and edit... will take time. ✪
Joe Andrieu: Is there anyone in the group that has video editing chops? ✪
Heather Vescent: I have the chops, but I don't have time right now. ✪
Andrew Hughes: We just need someone to use any tool to chop out sections. ✪
Joe Andrieu: There is the Data Minimization work item - Lionel has an update, but don't think he's here today. ✪
Christopher Allen: It's been published as a final draft for Rebooting. ✪
Christopher Allen: The goal at this point is to turn it into spec text and then get some more review and consensus on the terminology that we use there. One of the reasons for this document was the data minimization standards and thoughts about that were not well documented, sometimes behind paywalls. ✪
Christopher Allen: Certain terms were being bandied about w/o precision. It needs to work for communities broader than our own. We'd like to do a little iteration on it, do a WG note. ✪
Manu Sporny: Tzyiva has proposed to give us time in front of AC meeting. AC meeting has people from every 400+ company in front of the room, Tzviya has asked us to do a lightning talk in front of everyone about DIDs. [scribe assist by Dave Longley] ✪
Manu Sporny: I think the time is good because it doesn't conflict with the AC meeting. [scribe assist by Dave Longley] ✪
Joe Andrieu: I thought this was in front of the AC meeting? [scribe assist by Dave Longley] ✪
Manu Sporny: 3-6Pm on Tuesday, there's 30 mins of overlap. [scribe assist by Dave Longley] ✪
Manu Sporny: In the CCG meeting, it's whatever the CCG wants to talk about, we may do some last minute fine tuning. Wed is a big day where we have to run multiple sessions, it's an unconference. What we're trying to do during TPAC is give W3C members as many opportunities as possible to engage with the concept of DIDs. [scribe assist by Dave Longley] ✪
Manu Sporny: We'll talk at the CCG meeting, we'll talk on Wed about them, talk about during WICG Thursday, and in the VCWG on Thurs and Fri. [scribe assist by Dave Longley] ✪
Manu Sporny: Hopefully everyone will be sick and tired about hearing about DIDs by the end of the week but we will have socialized the concept broadly in the community and given them a heads up we'll be asking for a WG in Jan. [scribe assist by Dave Longley] ✪
Manu Sporny: That's what we should be focused on at TPAC this year, I know Joe you are coordinating us wearing buttons "Ask me about DIDs" and other coordinations. [scribe assist by Dave Longley] ✪
Drummond Reed: "Ask me about Decentralized Identifiers?" buttons? How do I get one of those?? ✪
Manu Sporny: I think at a high level that's what we're trying to do but specifically for the CCG meeting we should talk about other things as well, next steps, etc. [scribe assist by Dave Longley] ✪
Manu Sporny: These CCG meetings are going to be attended by people who have never engaged by the CCG. People who are just sort of interested in what's going on. We may want the first part of the meeting to just be an introductory thing. "If you've never been to a CCG meeting, this is what we're working on, VCs, DIDs, data minimization schemes, so on" [scribe assist by Dave Longley] ✪
Manu Sporny: Then the latter part of the meeting can talk about how we're going to move work forward and that sort of stuff. Those are suggestions, it's up to this group to shape the agenda for that Tuesday meeting. [scribe assist by Dave Longley] ✪
Joe Andrieu: Also helps me organize what we're doing for the panel, so on. [scribe assist by Dave Longley] ✪
Christopher Allen: Wondering if it's worthwhile updating the DID primer in time for the event. People want something they can read and it's a bit out of date now. [scribe assist by Dave Longley] ✪
Manu Sporny: So I don't know if it's super out of date, I think it's enough. Everything we wanted to submit to TPAC it's already too late to work on, sending out tomorrow. I looked at the primer and it's good enough for people to get a general idea of it. [scribe assist by Dave Longley] ✪
Manu Sporny: Typically people are very unprepared at TPAC and people walk into the room to learn about something and didn't do pre-reading. Over time we'll want to update primer, spec and have use cases doc in respec but we're already too late for TPAC. [scribe assist by Dave Longley] ✪
Manu Sporny: That said, the stuff I'm sending out will just be links so we can update in place as we have time. [scribe assist by Dave Longley] ✪
Manu Sporny: It does raise the question about handouts though... typically frowned upon at TPAC because it feels like marketing. [scribe assist by Dave Longley] ✪
Manu Sporny: May be a discussion to be had there. [scribe assist by Dave Longley] ✪
Andrew Hughes: If anyone wants to work on Friday to do concept maps of the DID primer or spec, whatever, I'd be happy to do that. [scribe assist by Dave Longley] ✪
Andrew Hughes: I will be at IIW, not TPAC. [scribe assist by Dave Longley] ✪
Andrew Hughes: I've got, pretty much, the VC primer as a concept now, from RWoT. But if people want to jump in for a couple hours on Friday with me we can jointly create one for the DID primer. [scribe assist by Dave Longley] ✪
Christopher Allen: I can’t Friday, but interested ✪
Joe Andrieu: That would be great, pretty cool bit of work that Andrew started at RWoT. [scribe assist by Dave Longley] ✪
Joe Andrieu: Follow up with Drummond [and Kaliya], they are interested. [scribe assist by Dave Longley] ✪
Joe Andrieu: Wednesday is an unconference format. An opportunity to present panels on a variety of things. We propose things and if we get a time slot of an hour. [scribe assist by Dave Longley] ✪
Joe Andrieu: My idea, I ran this by Manu, and want to suggest to everyone here, maybe do an hour talking about roadmap and getting input on that. Here's where VCs are and where we hope DIDs are but we know that doesn't solve the whole problem with identity sharing online, what else is on the longer term horizon. [scribe assist by Dave Longley] ✪
Joe Andrieu: If people want to jump on the queue and give feedback on that. [scribe assist by Dave Longley] ✪
Drummond Reed: What do we think is missing on the DID primer? The spec hasn't really changed and the primer was updated for it. I was curious folks thought was going to be missing but we're moving onto another topic so don't have to cover that now. [scribe assist by Dave Longley] ✪
Joe Andrieu: Any note in particular, Christopher? [scribe assist by Dave Longley] ✪
Andrew Hughes: We still have to reconcile the concept map against the VC spec (this was built against the VC Primer) - but it’s pretty good start ✪
Christopher Allen: More related to what people were saying at RWoT, a lot of that stuff was about VC... it may be good enough. Just raised as a question. [scribe assist by Dave Longley] ✪
Joe Andrieu: Andrew found some differences between the primer and the spec. [scribe assist by Dave Longley] ✪
Andrew Hughes: For VCs ... we may find the same thing with the DID spec as we develop the concept out. [scribe assist by Dave Longley] ✪
Drummond Reed: Cool, depending on the time on Friday I'd love to work on the concept map, those are fantastic. [scribe assist by Dave Longley] ✪
Drummond Reed: Will join if I can. [scribe assist by Dave Longley] ✪
Andrew Hughes: Will send a doodle out to the list. [scribe assist by Dave Longley] ✪
Joe Andrieu: Thanks. [scribe assist by Dave Longley] ✪
Kim Hamilton Duffy: One thing we could audit in the DID primer is whether there are legacy terms around "ownership" and "control" ✪
Joe Andrieu: Sam's question was about how do we engage around Solid and WebID and what's some of the history there and the politics? [scribe assist by Dave Longley] ✪
Manu Sporny: Solid has been around for a while, WebID has been around for much much longer, Digital Bazaar was actually the first implementer of the WebID and wrote the first spec, wrote the first implementation. [scribe assist by Dave Longley] ✪
Manu Sporny: About 10ish years ago. [scribe assist by Dave Longley] ✪
Manu Sporny: That work grew into what DIDs are today. We abandoned WebID for a variety of scalability issues -- that is a controversial statement. [scribe assist by Dave Longley] ✪
Manu Sporny: Some people don't feel like that's the right approach, they prefer a more Webby way of doing stuff vs. what we're doing with DIDs. [scribe assist by Dave Longley] ✪
Manu Sporny: The Solid project is more of a cousin of the work we're doing here -- personal data store and data locker, philosophically aligned with what we're doing here. Tech stack is a different, more semweb, utilizing WebID. Kayode [sp?] has been in this group working on Solid. The devs who have worked on Solid in the past know about the work we're doing here and we're trying to align. [scribe assist by Dave Longley] ✪
Manu Sporny: The approach for Solid, please someone else jump in if you don't think this is fair, but Solid's philosophy is to build a generalized data store off of Web principles first and people will come -- build it and they will come mentality. The stuff we're doing in this community is more focused. [scribe assist by Dave Longley] ✪
Manu Sporny: We're very focused on DIDs and VCs there's the identity hub stuff that's going on. We're focused on very specific techs and, in time, over 10 years, etc. these things will converge. That's the hope. [scribe assist by Dave Longley] ✪
Manu Sporny: Self-sovereign data stores will converge, etc but it hasn't happened yet. People are asking about Solid because during Tim's hiatus from W3C he raised funding and built a company to work on this stuff and talked about Solid being a way to redecentralize the Web. [scribe assist by Dave Longley] ✪
Manu Sporny: I think philosophically we're all aligned, but the foundational techs there's a disconnect. We've tried to invite the solid team in here many times but there's a desire to build a solution out quickly and get it in front of people and then standardize. [scribe assist by Dave Longley] ✪
Manu Sporny: I'll stop there. I don't know if there are any questions, but I'm also probably not well qualified to talk about where Solid is going post funding. [scribe assist by Dave Longley] ✪
Joe Andrieu: The WebID is basically a URL that resolves to a profile. [scribe assist by Dave Longley] ✪
Joe Andrieu: My read on it is that Solid could use DIDs and it has a slightly different architecture. [scribe assist by Dave Longley] ✪
Samantha Mathews Chase: I didn't have a good feeling in my mind about it and coming from the outside to this world and working on the floor with Tim and then coming back ... I feel sick in my stomach about it because it feels like totally messed up. I don't feel aligned philosophically with someone who takes credit for something so vast and is still the head of W3C. [scribe assist by Dave Longley] ✪
Samantha Mathews Chase: And if you aren't going to work through your organization you shouldn't be the head of it. I don't know. I'm trying to find ... someone wrote a nice thing, welcome to the community but it's appalling that we can't work together. I've refocused on things to work on things long term and collaboratively and it doesn't seem right to see someone not willing to collaborate be the head of a collaboration organization. [scribe assist by Dave Longley] ✪
Manu Sporny: I just wanted to point out that you may be reading a bit too much into what the media has portrayed as going on. Tim is incredibly collaborative, and while he's the Director of W3C, those duties are delegated to W3C staff, Tim rarely steps in and makes decisions, except in incredibly difficult decisions. [scribe assist by Dave Longley] ✪
Manu Sporny: Encrypted media extensions was the last time I think. [scribe assist by Dave Longley] ✪
Manu Sporny: Tim has said publicly that there are large companies in the W3C that drive the discussion. This isn't Tim saying this but there are small companies that feel there is a disturbing power dynamic between smaller companies and big browser vendors -- the browser vendors get their way because they implement. [scribe assist by Dave Longley] ✪
Manu Sporny: When in a WG there are highly funded multinationals, etc. that are sitting at the same table as small companies, startups, govts etc. and the outcomes are more driven by implementation than social construct. [scribe assist by Dave Longley] ✪
Manu Sporny: I believe Tim is taking the right approach, building software and coming to the table with that software because it gives you more leverage with WGs than just coming to WGs with a number of concepts. [scribe assist by Dave Longley] ✪
Manu Sporny: I think what you may not have seen over the 13-14 years, 1998 ...right after the first round of browser wars and Tim was trying to collaborate doing SemWeb stuff and it was slog to get that stuff out there and then it wasn't really picked up. I think from a collaboration perspective he's doing the right thing and you may be concerned about the right party. [scribe assist by Dave Longley] ✪
Manu Sporny: I'm not defending Tim just saying that everything I've seen him has been more aligned with how I believe you view the world vs what you were just concerned about. [scribe assist by Dave Longley] ✪
Samantha Mathews Chase: I appreciate the insight ✪
Kaliya Young: Snapping fingers for what Kim is saying. ✪
Kim Hamilton Duffy: Not to take this on too much of tangent, but one of the frustrations some members of our community have is that certain people are viewed as legends who can do no wrong. This perception of infallibility can cause damage for what we're trying to accomplish and it's important to provide context. [scribe assist by Dave Longley] ✪
Kim Hamilton Duffy: Not that we need to call them out, but instead to clarify and add context to ... everyone needs to work together towards what we're trying to build. [scribe assist by Dave Longley] ✪
Joe Andrieu: To provide further context, I think Tim is working through the organization, and through our own leadership with Kim and Manu they have their own startups and trying to make things real and building your own business. I don't think those things go naturally go hand in and that they are trying to do it is a testament. [scribe assist by Dave Longley] ✪
Samantha Mathews Chase: Great sentiments kim, i was most uncomfortable with the stature and praise he so willingly takes as his own genius, i know he's smart and collaborative but isn't it time to teach system thinking? acknowledge the broader initiative? ✪
Christopher Allen: I think Solid has deep roots in SemWeb stuff that he's been trying to get into the world for a long time, when did RDF start 15-20 years ago? And in many ways it still has deep roots in that and that's perhaps where some differences are. [scribe assist by Dave Longley] ✪
Christopher Allen: How do we avoid landmines and stepping on potential ally's feet and ways to draw them in and avoid making statements that would make it difficult for them to come in? [scribe assist by Dave Longley] ✪
Manu Sporny: This is about building bridges, I honestly think that bridge is already built. They come to these meetings and we can chat with Tim at TPAC about this but *please* don't corner him. The best way to engage him isn't to rant at him. Much of what is happening at Solid or W3C is out of his control and that's a good thing. [scribe assist by Dave Longley] ✪
Manu Sporny: He truly does believe in consensus and collaboration why W3C is structured the way it is. [scribe assist by Dave Longley] ✪
Manu Sporny: He rarely jumps in and tries to take stances on things, Solid team knows we exist, they will engage us if they see overlap, there are people currently working on that in this community and if it will happen it will happen naturally and TPAC is one place to move that discussion forward. [scribe assist by Dave Longley] ✪
Manu Sporny: If we see someone from the Solid team there, we invite them to CCG, come into roadmap meeting, DID meetings, we win hearts and minds of them just like everyone else, just takes time. [scribe assist by Dave Longley] ✪
Joe Andrieu: I reasonate with the hearts and minds framing rather than standards fight, right way to win. [scribe assist by Dave Longley] ✪
Joe Andrieu: We have 10 mins left ... [scribe assist by Dave Longley] ✪
Joe Andrieu: I have a little bit about what we're working on, some time on the DIDs and their value proposition and how they fit into W3C related work and more than DIDs. That outline would easily frame 2 hours, chairs would need to put something together for that. [scribe assist by Dave Longley] ✪
Joe Andrieu: Any other info to put into the outline for the presentation? [scribe assist by Dave Longley] ✪
Joe Andrieu: Outside that session, we have something on Thursday with the Web Commerce group, could you describe that, Manu? [scribe assist by Dave Longley] ✪
Manu Sporny: We just need a slide deck, 15 minutes from the chairs/anyone else that wants to present. [scribe assist by Dave Longley] ✪
Manu Sporny: The Web Commerce group at W3C keeps an eye on the horizon on techs that enable people to engage economically on the Web, web payments, VCs for over age of X, being able to prove you live in a particular country, things of that nature. [scribe assist by Dave Longley] ✪
Manu Sporny: So Web Commerce is interested in VCs and DIDs and Web payments and Digital Offers and that chunk of time would cover a variety of those aspects. [scribe assist by Dave Longley] ✪
Joe Andrieu: Is that 15 mins for CCG? [scribe assist by Dave Longley] ✪
Manu Sporny: Yes, it's specifically DIDs. [scribe assist by Dave Longley] ✪
Christopher Allen: What specifically can DIDs offer them that we want to ✪
Manu Sporny: You can pepper other things in there, Matt Stone and Dan Burnett will talk about VCs, CCG will talk about DIDs and maybe some other things, will try to get Adam Powers to talk about DID authentication, something else about smart contracts that Allen Brown will talk, there will be 75 minutes for info for people attending the Web Commerce meeting. [scribe assist by Dave Longley] ✪
Joe Andrieu: We have a Monday deadline, chairs, to get our 15 minute presentation in. [scribe assist by Dave Longley] ✪
Manu Sporny: Send to mailing list and I'll pick it up from there. [scribe assist by Dave Longley] ✪
Joe Andrieu: There are some slides from Nathan George and Manu, if you can send those to me I can incorporate. [scribe assist by Dave Longley] ✪
Joe Andrieu: I think that's the CCG session, Wed, Thurs, anything else? [scribe assist by Dave Longley] ✪
Manu Sporny: Other than VCWG... and AC lightning talk. Tzviya is checking on this for us, she's on the advisory board for the W3C and is chatting to give us 5 minutes for a pitch, a sales job, to get W3C membership to get excited about DIDs, I can take that session unless someone else wants to do a strong sales job on DIDs. [scribe assist by Dave Longley] ✪
Joe Andrieu: I'd be happy for you to take it but would like to coordinate on it. [scribe assist by Dave Longley] ✪
Manu Sporny: If someone is great at sales please jump in. [scribe assist by Dave Longley] ✪
Joe Andrieu: There's nothing going on in the evenings -- any other groups to build relationships with? [scribe assist by Dave Longley] ✪
Manu Sporny: I think we're covered, general thing is if you're part of the CCG and you're there please represent the work we're doing in conversations with everyone. There are plenty of opportunities to get other W3C members excited about the work we'ee doing here. [scribe assist by Dave Longley] ✪
Joe Andrieu: Are you sending out, unofficially the doc for DID focal use cases? [scribe assist by Dave Longley] ✪
Manu Sporny: Only for people asking, yes. [scribe assist by Dave Longley] ✪
Joe Andrieu: I want to draw people's attention to the charter and in particular, take a read, put some comments or issues in because this will be the focus for a lot of folks -- "that's interesting maybe I should support it". This is what people will vote on it. [scribe assist by Dave Longley] ✪
Drummond Reed: So the vote will not be until January? ✪
Manu Sporny: It's pretty mature, we're just getting ready to do an informal socialization of the charter and you do that to catch people who would object if it came to a vote -- doing that at TPAC. Month later Redmond Strong AuthN workshop and then send it out for a vote in January if there are no objections. 30 day open vote and then we'll know if we have a WG at W3C for DIDs. [scribe assist by Dave Longley] ✪
Manu Sporny: We need to lock it down and be done with it. [scribe assist by Dave Longley] ✪
Manu Sporny: How long will the DID WG be chartered? [scribe assist by Drummond Reed] ✪
Joe Andrieu: So people look at it, make issues, etc. [scribe assist by Dave Longley] ✪
Drummond Reed: More than likely it'll happen in January at the earliest... we may be able to push it up to mid-December. ✪
Joe Andrieu: Your input will help make it better and more likely to get it through the standards process. [scribe assist by Dave Longley] ✪
Joe Andrieu: The DID focal use cases I wish was further along and in respec to share more widely but I did do the next chunk of work on it and want feedback, this is an invitation for that. [scribe assist by Dave Longley] ✪
Drummond Reed: Thanks. It's okay if it's January - It's going to be a marathon, not a sprint ;-) ✪
Joe Andrieu: I took the current focal use case doc and put it into a needs map and broke down use cases into multiple domains. Identified a few of the use cases that were safe to remove, but out of time. [scribe assist by Dave Longley] ✪
Joe Andrieu: Please take a look -- I think it's obvious that the removals got moved into something else or didn't need. [scribe assist by Dave Longley] ✪
Joe Andrieu: I also tried to distill the names down into 2-3 words that were pithy/compelling. First stab to represent input from everyone so far, you can comment in the Google doc directly or on the mailing list, I welcome your feedback. [scribe assist by Dave Longley] ✪
Joe Andrieu: That's it! [scribe assist by Dave Longley] ✪