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Verifiable Claims and Digital Verification

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CCG Verifiable Credentials for Education Task Force Telecon

Minutes for 2020-02-03

Intro to the task force and members
Kim Hamilton Duffy, Joe Andrieu, Christopher Allen
Uli Gallersdörfer, Kim Hamilton Duffy, Greg Nadeau, Adam Lemmon, Alan Davies, Steven Pattison, Matt Lisle, Bernhard Borges, Nate Otto, Kerri Lemoie, James Chartrand, Stuart Sutton, Hans Pongratz
Audio Log
Uli Gallersdörfer: Hi, can someone point me to an application I can use to join the call via pc?
Hello everyone !
Kim Hamilton Duffy: Describing how to do minutes [scribe assist by Kim Hamilton Duffy]
... And some other stuff
... About the early days
... Today we'll run through the charter as our main agenda item
... Primarily adding and subtracting use cases and requirements
... This work evolved out of the digital credentials consortium (14 north american universities)
... All 14 had previously experimented on their own with their own pilots (some but not all blockchain anchored/hashed)
... VC spec 1.0 is very new, despite over a decade of experimentation and incubation, primarily in the education space (openBadges, blockcerts, etc)
... Hitting a wall on interop and cross-verification; for that reason, wanted this discussion to be more open and gather more requirements and feedback from outside
Greg Nadeau: Could be either
... In a way that fed into the standards track. IEEE is working on ??? cm4 ILR (i? learning record)
... And w3c is of course pushing forward the VC spec itself
Nate Otto: ILR = Interoperable Learning Record, in most formulations I've seen.
Greg Nadeau: I am leaning towards Integrated Learner Record (ILR) but the White House and US Chamber/TX are using Interoperable Learner Record
... We can version schemas that come out of this work, and start iterating and experiment together before standards are finalized
Error: (IRC nickname 'juancaballero' not recognized)[2020-02-03T16:23:35.016Z] <juancaballero> PSA:
Error: (IRC nickname 'juancaballero' not recognized)[2020-02-03T16:23:43.267Z] <juancaballero> RECENT JOINERS MUTE THEMSELVES :D
Greg Nadeau: BTW - Kim referred to CM4LTS - that is the IEEE Conceptual Model for Learner Technology Systems (CM4LTS). Kim, Nate, me, and others are working together on that. Study Group meets this Fri
Thanks greg!
Kim Hamilton Duffy: Lots of these pre-W3C credentials we're talking about use XML, whereas the W3C ones are so far almost entirely in JSON-LD
... Since all the VC tooling so far has been very JSON-LD, most people have just been mapping or translating from XML to LD
Hans Pongratz: Is there are good web way to join the voice call?
... Understandably, lots of people are hesitant to shift to these new systems with untested/new security issues in the SSI world
Greg Nadeau: Hans US phone: +1.540.274.1034 x6306 EU phone: + x6306
Nate Otto: @HansP You can use a SIP client (I signed up for OnSIP), though reports are the SIP gateway has been a bit finicky of late.
... One middle ground is non-blockchain PKI via OIDC rather than DID-based SSI
... Existing university authentication methods are one way to anchor, access, and sign VCs
... The great thing about the VC data model is that it's very flexible on ToU, security and privacy considerations, allowing many different kinds of use cases, but
... We have yet to really explore and stabilize the parameters of those use cases around sharing and semi-public contexts
... But moving on to the agenda item here, we want to zoom in and clarify scope and focal use cases, particularly in these terms
Hans Pongratz: Thx @ottonomy
Greg Nadeau: Introduces himself (public consulting group, boston)
... Active in IMS global heading up use cases (ontology format)
... Also worked in the IEEE on IRL recommended practices
... Also the US Chamber of Commerce initiative
... I queued myself when you mentioned making references sharable-- that's 1 of 3 main foci of the IEEE group
... To be more precise, 1 SSI access control and trust network; 2 open ontology references; 3 verifiable assertions
... For these verifiable assertions to be valuable, they need to be cross-walkable and semi-public, i.e. as linked data
... The mental model of the wallet is useful because the subject of those credentials need to be able to share
... CASE network and other groups have been talking about open ontology metadirectories
(Sorry everyone my connection is glitching out often!)
Kim Hamilton Duffy: Thanks greg for reminding us of what's being discussed there so that we can be aware of it
Greg Nadeau: To be involved in monthly IEEE CM4LTS calls Fridays 1P ET send e-mail to
Kerri Lemoie: Self-intro: openBadges for the last decade, been working on my dissertation, and working with Dept ED on blockchain verification for educational credentials
Kim Hamilton Duffy: Thanks Nate, will call on you next. thanks for joining!
Error: (IRC nickname 'juancaballero' not recognized)[2020-02-03T16:39:27.785Z] <juancaballero> ... just to throw out a question for later/food for thought: LIBRARY use cases?
... How libraries intersect with professional development
... Does anyone have experience with library of congress standards or other library work?
Kim Hamilton Duffy: Reminder that march-ish, we'll be releasing Kerri's report, on blockchain (and other decentralized) innovations
... That report is going to save all of us a lot of time
Nate Otto: Self-introduction: Badger platform at OpenSky : we are interested in coming together and finding the next path forward that will unite all our efforts over the last 5 years
... In envelopes, digital signatures, and DID Auth / recipient verification
Kim Hamilton Duffy: Simone -- can I call on you next?
Kerri Lemoie: Library standards:
... There are usecases in education that are ready to go, well-documented and clarified, waiting to connect all the dots
... And leave the "trials while we wait for parts to come together" stage in the evolution of this tech
Nate Otto: Thanks, all! I'm going to have to drop off IRC to drive, but I'll stay on audio for a bit longer until the connection drops. Glad to get started. What I'm most excited about is coalescing some implementers on a well-chosen set of standards and schemas so that we have a working example that is complete for use cases we define. Verifiable Credentials, DIDs for recipient identity, claim structure, digital signature means, identifier authentication (DID Auth?).
Error: (IRC nickname 'juancaballero' not recognized)[2020-02-03T16:42:59.675Z] <juancaballero> Simone_Ravaioli: Self intro: based in Italy, work for
... Digitary (Dublin, Ire), although lately we're working with lots of APAC universities
... We've been trying to keep track of all the moving parts, including the European Commision work (most recently, EuroCat )
... Also we've been working with North American efforts
... We want to keep the perspective global
Kerri Lemoie: +1 To global perspective
Kim Hamilton Duffy: Juan -- can I call on you next? I can scribe for you. I'd like to hear about your interests
Greg Nadeau: Simone - can you send links to best Europass references and your e-mail?
Kim Hamilton Duffy: We might ask you to present some week soon, particularly if you're at liberty to comment on these global projects
Kim Hamilton Duffy: Juancaballero: SSI company in Germany. Working on uni and gov projects
Kim Hamilton Duffy: ...Was college professor, worked with registrar depts
Greg Nadeau: In US, AACRAO recently endorsed IMS CLR
Alan Davies: Self intro: CredentialMaster
... Salesforce technical architect for many years, building a VC management system on top of SF platform
... In its first stage, it'll be dealing with educational credentials
Kim Hamilton Duffy: One question i did want to touch on (after Bernhard) is gathering claims
Bernhard Borges:
Error: (IRC nickname 'juancaballero' not recognized)[2020-02-03T16:51:22.038Z] <juancaballero> ... Self-intro: chief scientist at Dock (blockchain-based company), but i
... Am more interested in privacy and selective disclosure, am joining this call as a "concerned citizen"
... I am interested in DIDs to create indirection/redirection to aid privacy and lifetime access considerations
... I hope we can all get to know each other over the next few weeks and happy to be here!
Kim Hamilton Duffy: Yes! lifecycle considerations and privacy concerns are of central concern to most or all of us
... With VCs, the idea is that decentralization and user-centric control will be protected, although there is a lot of work left to do there
Hans Pongratz: Self intro: Senior VP/CIO of TUeM
... In Munich, we are on the one hand issuer and, on the other, verifier of a lot of educational credentials
... So we want to be ahead of the curve as all these systems go live
Uli Gallersdörfer: Self-intro: also from Muenchen
... I'm a PhD student here, particularly interested in how realworld identities map to onchain/immutable/highly-public identities
Steven Pattison: Steven Pattison,
... Here to connect dots and see what's happening
Stuart Sutton: (Sorry my audio dropped)
Stuart Sutton: Interested in education use cases [scribe assist by Kim Hamilton Duffy]
Matt Lisle: Georgia Tech, we have been piloting and doing UX research on digital credential through the DCC
... Our focus lately has been on lifetime learning credentials (rather than traditional tertiary degrees)
Kim Hamilton Duffy: Yes, usability and user research will be useful here! We'll be linking to their study on BlockCerts interviewing users soon
... Would be good to hear from others working with realworld user
Kerri Lemoie: +1 User experience research
Kim Hamilton Duffy: Juancaballero: Fraunhofer in Germany doing a usability study. would be good to sync
Greg Nadeau: Suggestion: some of the things coming out of the conceptual model guide might be useful
... Particularly interesting where they don't map well to W3C VCs (terminologically, in particular)
Kim Hamilton Duffy: Greg may have a reference for CEDS, but I'm not sure if that's not publicly available yet
... Project (lots of education data standards history and interop there)
... Or in IMS Global
Greg Nadeau: The good news is that Jim Goddell is writing the IEEE, which will thus be well-synchronized with the CEDS terminology
Bernhard Borges: Credential management/representation, aka wallet, may be another shared interest
... CEDS is very US-centric, but this point of translation/integration is a good point for interjecting global awareness and counterexamples...
Kerri Lemoie: Thanks!!