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Verifiable Claims and Digital Verification

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Credentials CG Telecon

Minutes for 2020-12-08

<philip_sheldrake> Thanks. Great to be here.
Adrian Gropper is scribing.

Topic: Introductions and reintro

Philip Sheldrake: My first expereince thanks for inviting me
Wayne Chang: Reitroductions?
Wayne Chang: Announcements and reminders? no ccg meetings on 22 or 29 Dec.
.. TY to Ted that we need to use CET on agendas
Kaliya Young: Conference I'm co-convening Thoughtful Biometrics

Topic: Action Items

VC PRs - how are we going to maintain the spec after group has completed
<identitywoman_> Feb 1, 3, 5. 9-1 pst / noon-5 est.
Kim Hamilton Duffy: We had our fors set of PRs under maintenance charter - noted that one that -
<identitywoman_> just another sentence for the notes The Thoughtful Biometrics Workshop is creating a space to dialogue about critical emerging issues surrounding biometric and digital identity technologies. Biometrics technology is being used in a wide range of contexts and there in this range of existing and potential uses, there are many questions about the ethical and socially good uses.
Phil Archer: +1 Identitywoman - looks like a goo meeting.
Manu Sporny: We thought we had everything set up - but actually there are some details that matter - still working through those - need to make sure Ivan is happy with the process - needs more discussion before we start
Merging things in - there's no big blockers for now -
Wayne Chang: Who is the we?
Manu Sporny: Needs to be the chairs of the CCG, staff contact, editors of the spec.
Wayne Chang: NPM item: importance? would love to hear about it
Mike Prorock: When we're podicing assets - we would prefer for them to come from a centralized repo - e.g. universal wallet - better from W3C than other namespaces
... who do you go for help. It helps us for mananging as CCG instead of a company.
Wayne Chang: Chairs have discussed - our concerns are with respect to scope - don't want straight code that may have bugs - need scope lit to test vectors or
... example implementations, data values, but not code level dependencies
Mike Schwartz: Agree withthe scoping - adding traceability - later, univesal wallet could evolve - we will need more rigor around approval process - automated testing - keep scope limited for now
<mprorock> 1+
Manu Sporny: General +1 tp mike's request - DigitalBazaar has been doing ot for JSON-LD would love to be putting it in the community - used in production and need to look how to ensure how to feel safe for production - forking the repo might work for your company - it's a much higher bar and need companies to pay contributors
Wayne Chang: My understanding is important reliability and clear lines of governance - there may be lighter-weight use cases to test the waters
Mike Prorock: Let's start with the low hanging fruit and then pay for significant contributions
<orie_> Raises questions about sponsorship / github sponsors for repos, etc..
Wayne Chang: As chair we need comfort to maintain quality and trust

Topic: Infrastructure task Force

<mprorock> @orie - yes indeed, I think that is definitely an option and worthy of future discussion
Wayne Chang: A lot of tech infrastructure needs - Manu and Amy contributors but need transparency and share the load work or $ - to manage the inventory - NPM, telconference, cloud services cos $, security , create and maintain the documentation for new entrants
... there has been interest - see some concerns from Heather - can you speak?
Orie Steele: Trying to distill what the next steps are for NPM - volunteering - there are many that have power and responsibility and thay should be included
Manu Sporny: To speak in favor of the infrastructure task force - needs to move away from the DigitalBazaar as operator of the infrastructure - need to address all of the concers - like what happens if used for production - how is this helping the chairs?
... need a group of people that get together on regular basis
<tallted> "Infrastructure" may not have been the right label for what was originally targeted ...
Heather Vescent: Not questioning if we need to do the work - concerned about another level of hierarchy - adds work to the chairs - not to lose accountability - when proposed was to address the minutes issue around JTSI - looks to me like more things thrown into this bucke -
... can manage these things through the regular work items not as part of the task force - already have three other task forces, this would be a fourth.
... we don't have guidelines or documentation for task forces - need to be appropriate - another level of hierarchy to manage
... there have been a loud group around JTSI and quiet group around Zoom. That ship has sailed - one of my goals is to increase diversity to people that are not as comfortable with tech
<kim> that sounds like something the chairs could communicate better to speakers
<kim> we should make sure to clarify this to invited speakers
... concerned about lack of tech obstacles - lower that barrier - open to addressing those issues - need more accountability and transparency maybe without a task force.
Wayne Chang: Responding, spending time along with manu - would prefer the hierarchy to the current state where using personal credit cards and such -
<heathervescent> I am willing to work on the audit as well
<kim> we are getting short on time, so I'll just say my comments on the record.
... scope creep is a problem - maybe prioritize documentation - adding the burden of extensive audits is a problem - willing to contribute - technology point: we have been asking for feedback and have been avoiding strong objections hence zoom
Heather Vescent: +1 Manu. This is one problem.
Manu Sporny: Agrees with a lot of what heather said. It's a wonderful that we have so much participation - contemplating productio infrastructure in CG is great but scope creep can be a problem - NPM is scary but valuable - need to figure out a way to scale
... inclusivity is valid problem around jtsi - not hearing anything unreasonable - focus on stabilizing first
Wayne Chang: +1 Manu
<kim> I'm in support of this task force. The fact that chairs were historically able to manage infrastructure, publish minutes, etc -- that happened as a result of a ton of work from Manu and then me.
<kim> time check -- we should wrap this up and move to the main speaker
Ted Thibodeau: Task forces tend to be task driven - this sounds more like a sub-committee - people involved should be concerned but not everyone needt to be involved

Topic: Generative Identity

Philip Sheldrake:
Philip Sheldrake: Thanks to Kim for suggesting I join. I'm an engineer, work with Akasha Foundation and a PhD candidate.
... Generative Identity is not an architecture nor a solution - it's approaching psychological and sociological health - was invited to write a chapter and it turned into a critique
... everyone undersatands SSI needs explanation - need to develop categorization around noun vs. verb-like
... verb-like Identity is in flux and dynamic vs. noun-like is static and unchanging like a date of birth - that is the bureaucratic view of identity has been dominant
... may have meen the dominant viewpoing of SSI developers, maybe because of crypto approach leads to nonun-like
... also the western concept to reify the individual noun-like mentality in code.
<drummond> that is simply a misunderstand about how SSI works. It is highly verb-like
<identitywoman_> with all due respect Philip you haven't actively particiapted in the technology development for the last 15 years. So to say that we are centered on noun like ID is THE dominant frame in our community it "is" A frame that happens to be solved with this technology. A huge focus of the work has also been focused on the verb like aspects particularly with the DIDComm specification.
... To explain the difference to verb-like doesn't mean that identity stands alone - individual AND collective - interwoven might have a single word to descibe inteities - PLURAL -
... informed by interactions and forever in flux - chatting with taylor kendall last year -
<kerri_lemoie> I'm a technologist & a psychologist
... community needs equal representation of technologists + psychologists + sociologists + ecologists + historians not in the group
<drummond> I think Philip needs more exposure to the full breadth of the SSI community
... how can we desing if these other disciplines are not at the table - as we digitalize the noun-like was previously legal - previous friction
... has prevented the legal identity from beign used inappropriately - software architects have separation of concerns ingained - we are separating concerns when we should not and failing to separate when we should
... digitalizing the noun-like we have failed by letting it bleed into societal rigidity - but if we want the verb-like essence of human condition - we should avoid the triangles
... all I'm trying to do is encourage an interdisciplinar deabte and hit PAUSE until we can have that discussion - social media as an example -
... need to anticipate negative emerging consequences that could result in persecution and murder.
<identitywoman_> Sorry but their are systems that are way worse then SSI on the march in the real world including what is being built in China and the Aadhaar system being exported to Africa. So "pausing" means those other far worse systems will continue to push out into the world.
... we need to attenuate the distressing outcomes - with generative identity
<heathervescent> Thanks Philip for coming to share this with the community.
Manu Sporny: TY for coming in - everything is great insights - building bridges a good thing - It may not appear that those disciplines are already here.
Kerri Lemoie: Media Psychologist :)
<kim> /me I'm a standup comic if that helps
Kim Hamilton Duffy: /Me a bad one :(
... our CTO has a psycholgy dergee - Kerri has sociology perspective - we have people that care deeply - the question is:
<phil> I appreciate the interdisciplinary concern and the possible distressing outcomes that could emerge without it. I do think there reasonable worries that we perhaps need more proactive outreach. That's important. But there is more diversity, at least in this community, is greater than many.
... what can we do to get more people involved?
<heathervescent> But many of us technologist/other field still have a technological bias... I would be curious to hear the non-technology/ experts comments.
... what do we do from here?
<phil> It would be interesting to surface the actual diversity in this group that lurks, is present, but perhaps not as transparent as might be helpful.
Philip Sheldrake: I'm not underestimating how difficult - TBL is still struggling - the only approach I can think of is that EU gets it more than other democratic cultures
Kaliya Young: I wrote a critique of Philip's critique if folks wan to read it pushing back from the very top that we are "moving fast and breaking things"
<drummond> I simply do not agree with the premise that SSI architecture is “noun-like”. Implemented correctly, it is the most “verb-like” digital identity model ever created.
<kerri_lemoie> I think it would be worthwhile & educational to hold a cross-disciplinary discussion on the principles.
... seems to understand - EC funding sought -
<drummond> Ironically the EU has provided more funding for SSI than any other government
Wayne Chang: Last words and contact?
Philip Sheldrake: