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VC for Education Task Force

Transcript for 2022-05-09

Our Robot Overlords are scribing.
<deb_everhart> good morning/afternoon everyone!
Kerri Lemoie: Thank you for joining the verifiable credentials education task force on May ninth. After we go through a few notes and then we're going to have a presentation with Sharon Leu from JFF and JFF Labs who is going to be introducing the interoperable plugfest for education.

Topic: IP Note

Kerri Lemoie: IP note anyone can participate in these calls but if you'd like to make any substantive contributions to any of this work you should be a member of the ccg with full type are agreement side you should ensure you have a W3 account and then this is Link in the chat is the contributor license agreement.
<kerri_lemoie> license agreement:

Topic: Call Notes

Kerri Lemoie: Secondly all of these meetings are recorded So they have audio and oftentimes video and a transcriber. our transcription is being automated so we call this our transcriber robot you may see in the chat that the transcription happening there and you could help us with the minutes if you put in any sort of a substitutions and Corrections for anything that the transcriber gets really right you can do this.
Kerri Lemoie: By typing s/.
Kerri Lemoie: Correct term / and then correct term and put that in the chat for you right now.
Kerri Lemoie: The example is right there in the chat. Note that we also use a queue system especially when we have as many members as many participants as we do today so if you would like to speak please put Q Plus in the chat like so and then you could remove yourself from the chair of the cube - as a facilitator I will keep an eye on that and make sure that you get called on.

Topic: Introductions & Reintroductions

Kerri Lemoie: Would anyone like to introduce themselves today?
<mallory_dwinal-palisch> I'm new!
Kerri Lemoie: And now you would you like me to turn on your audio and boost your self.
Kerri Lemoie: Okay thanks Murray.
Mallory_Dwinal-Palisch: Sure thanks so much hi everyone my name is Mallory Gwen all Palin I'm the chancellor of reach University we do apprenticeship degrees originally just in teaching but as we think about apprenticeship degrees across other Industries are looking to learning and employment records that meet best practices and Industry standards so really excited to be here.
Rebecca_Busacca: And my name is Rebekah abused sock'em with Territorial and we provide comprehensive learning records and digital wallets and our CTO is on the call with us as well his name is Gerardo.
Kerri Lemoie: Excellent thanks Rebecca Gerardo you introduce yourself before but would you like to say hello again.
Kerri Lemoie: Anybody else would like to make an introduction or reintroduction update on anything you're working on.
Kerri Lemoie: Does anybody have any announcements that like to make today.

Topic: Announcements

Dmitri Zagidulin: So used to what my.
Kerri Lemoie: You have the floor.
<manu_sporny> Verifiable Credential API test suites:
Manu Sporny: Hey thanks um so just an announcement that is somewhat relevant to this call they recently set of test Suites that were released for the verifiable credential API I'll put the link in the chat Channel viable potential test Suites viable we go in the tunnel.
Manu Sporny: The test Suites are basically testing the basic interoperability between the issuance infrastructure verifier in occur in we have test suite for the signature test Suite the Edwards are your test Suite this is first of many different test Suite that we're releasing for interoperability they're ready for experimental integration we already have multiple implementers passing these test Suite so that's a good.
Manu Sporny: Good thing just letting this.
Manu Sporny: Now that those are out there and we will be releasing probably one you test Suite every other month next up are things like credential refresh and credential status list and add key and things of that nature that's it.
Kerri Lemoie: Excellent thank you money.
Dmitri Zagidulin: I'm so used to hearing announcements saying the AIA W is coming up but now I W has has passed but there's going to be another one in the fall so mark your calendars people.
Kerri Lemoie: Yes okay anybody else like announcements.
Kerri Lemoie: I can hear you Phil.
Phil_L_(P1): Can you hear me carry quick announcement I don't have details of this other than a date but it looks like there will be a meeting in DC in July on the 14th regarding the use of of national language NLP AI + ml techniques to extract both.
Phil_L_(P1): skills and competency data.
Phil_L_(P1): See data from unstructured sources as well as to look at unstructured representations of credentials and consider their mapping to verifiable credential data models so the best I can tell you at the moment is that it will be in d.c. on the 14th of July at the Microsoft DC facility but keep an eye on both T3 and.
Phil_L_(P1): urn and.
Phil_L_(P1): Sources for the exact dates exactly further information thanks.
Kerri Lemoie: Thanks Phil I don't see anybody else in the queue.

Topic: VC-EDU Interoperability Plug Fest with Sharon Leu (JFF)

Kerri Lemoie: So I think we can get started.
Kerri Lemoie: Today we have Sharon Leu here from JFF and JFFLabs and before she gets on I just wanted to say a couple of things about about what's going to happen today which is going to describe and how it relates to this group. At VC edu our primary objective objectives are to provide resources, guidance, and support for the alignment of learning employment and achievement credentials to the verifiable credential standard and we're also looking at.
Kerri Lemoie: How do we align with the common behaviors and.
Kerri Lemoie: Protocols that can help to increase integrity and the understandability of learner data across as many contexts as learners need. It's a very ambitious goal and we're very much at the beginning of this and making some great progress. So Sharon's here today to introduce an initiative with JFF and VC-EDU that encourages community participation and collaboration to help us move towards these goals and even though it's very early it's a good way to help us make progress on the topics that we have open now that we really wanted to move forward on.
Kerri Lemoie: So just a reminder before Sharon comes on if you have any questions.
<deb_everhart> for context, see
Kerri Lemoie: Feel free to put them in the chat or also queue yourself in the chat and I'll keep an eye on it. Sharon the floor is yours.
<deb_everhart> you're a contributor, not a stalker!
Kerri Lemoie: +1 @Deb
Sharon Leu: Thank you Carrie and thank you for having me back I feel like I'm stalking this group for sure now because it is I think the second time in as in as many months that I've been on here but as Kari said what I wanted to do was talk to you a little bit about something that jff labs and the national Governors Association is working on and essentially I guess I'm really Manu I appreciate you making an announcement about.
Sharon Leu: About the test Suites and that you are.
Sharon Leu: Leasing every month and it's good to hear that there are actually a lot of multiple there are multiple implementers of that I think that one of the things that I'm interested in is how to have more implementers of this kind of interoperability testing in the education and employment communities so as general context I'll say that jmf is a National not-for-profit Organization that is interested in figuring out how to provide.
Sharon Leu: Equitable opportunity for all and part of that is through jff Labs thinking about the ways that technology and investments in technology can accelerate some of that one of the things that we've been thinking a lot about is the ways that individuals can represent themselves and their abilities and thinking about the various different ways that individuals learn and are given credit for the skills they have whether on the workplace or formerly at educational Institution.
Sharon Leu: Ins and for this group I think.
Sharon Leu: Prize that the answer is those are all actually just assertions and basically credentials so in this in if we if we are pursuing our vision which is to have interoperability amongst these credentials so that individuals can curate a set of these over their lifetime then we need to think about the different ways that we can begin to demonstrate this we published some research that you were so kind to allow me to present to this group.
Sharon Leu: Last month.
Sharon Leu: Talked a lot about the different digital wallet products that are in this ecosystem right now and specifically the verifiable credentials ones and what we want to use this opportunity to do then is to build on that work and to say like actually it would be ideal if there were more digital wallets project products and projects in the education and employment ecosystem that did implement the VC standard so this is our attempt to I guess support.
Sharon Leu: The community in doing.
Sharon Leu: This we have our partners at the national Governors Association and at Walmart to have really generously given us this space to do this and how we intend to do this is in partnership with who we consider to be our end users which are communities including policymakers educational institutions we have a community of practice through the national Governors Association of I think 14 States and a half a dozen or so Observer States.
Sharon Leu: Who are.
Sharon Leu: In implementing these Statewide but what the question that we want to ask is what is the infrastructure needs to look like to give Learners and workers the most amount of flexibility and so we came up with this idea of mimicking a lot of the work that the w3c has already been doing through the S VIP program to actually allow the different providers in the education ecosystem to demonstrate interoperability to provide some assurance that as States and networks begin.
Sharon Leu: To implement this that.
Sharon Leu: It won't that Learners will maintain the most amount of flexibility that they can so we have we are going to try to I guess on-ramp ourselves into this interoperability plugfest demonstration exercise and our first activity will be in about a month what we would like to do is sort of as a first attempt I guess.
Sharon Leu: The I think at the first of what I hope is many attempts to do this we'd like to start the goal being the true multi-vendor multi-platform interoperability of the credential right so a learner can take their credential no matter where they earn it and move it with them wherever they want including across multiple different records sorry different wallets and different sort of credentialing platforms with that goal in mind we want to start really simply with just seeing what the different digital credentials.
Sharon Leu: Is look like in the Verifiable
Sharon Leu: Credentials format in as many wallets as possible so what I did so there is an invitation that went out and I will be happy to I think I posted it on the public group list serve as well what we'll be doing is we'll just be doing that very short sequence a verifiable credential in the open badge 3 format which I know hasn't been released yet but I think I'll let Carrie talk a little.
Sharon Leu: Bit about that in a minute that.
Sharon Leu: You any wallet provider and displayed and we have I guess a ten thousand dollar Bounty for this I don't think Bounty is probably the right word but we have ten thousand dollars that were willing to give to any while it's provider that's willing to participate in this exercise we haven't dictated any of the other terms and I think we want to use this time to discuss some of the questions that you might have about this so I guess Carrie.
Sharon Leu: Do you want to add a.
Sharon Leu: All the things to what we're proposing to just give a little bit broader context before we get into some of the specific questions to discuss.
<deb_everhart> the first community interoperability demonstration event on Monday, June 6, 2022, from 1 PM to 5 PM CT, as a pre-conference event preceding the JFF Horizons conference. You can register for this event separately at
Kerri Lemoie: Sure so what we were thinking is that it would make sense to issue a single single education credential or achievement credential into the wallet and we were talking about using open badges 3.0 because it is almost ready for candidate release in June next month and IMS Global has already made it possible so that we could start piloting with this standard so we can start working.
Kerri Lemoie: Hang on.
Kerri Lemoie: Already have been started working on making an npm module with that standard over at the DCC so the members of the DC I've been working on that already so we should have that available pretty soon so it makes it easy to say okay we have this one badge Swiss one standard is already aligned with verifiable credentials and I'm let's see how we could display this inside of a wallet which is something that we've been trying to accomplish at BC and you.
Kerri Lemoie: Johnson the cure to calling him sharing okay.
John Kuo: So is the plugfest just to to issue and presents an open badges three data schema credential and not to Move It from wall across wallets but just to plug in the ob3 you know credential is that is that the limit of the the plugfest or are we expected to show that this you know could actually.
John Kuo: There's been issued to wallet to another wallet that is my question.
Sharon Leu: For this first stage we just want to issue and display all of these things will happen in subsequent steps afterwards but there are I think a number of people in the education Community who do issue credentials who are not in the VC format and what we want to do is help people on ramp into this community and into this process.
John Kuo: Okay that's clear thank you.
Kerri Lemoie: Brandon you have the floor.
Brandon_Muramatsu: Does this mean that today the open bass V3 specification is publicly and openly available to anyone that wants to look at it and use it for this poke plugfest or is it still proprietary.
Kerri Lemoie: I can answer that one turn on the open badges repository is public that was part of the agreement between Mozilla and IMS Global when it was shifted there so while the meetings are private the repo is public and I will I'll add a link to that in the chat in a minute.
<brandon_muramatsu> thanks
Kerri Lemoie: Right now the secret here is empty Marley.
Marty Reed: Yeah so one of the question I have is in regards to what the what the credential to exchange is I think there's a lot of Hello world out there right now and I would just encourage something a little bit more substantive in this in this credential to be exchanged.
Marty Reed: That makes sense.
Sharon Leu: Okay so I'll take the first stab at it but also like pain to carry as well Marty I don't actually think there are a lot of hello worlds out there that are really hello worlds and I think this is what we mean to see through doing this exercise is if it is real.
<kerri_lemoie> Thanks for link @Deb!
Sharon Leu: Because I guess without sounding overly critical I think my understanding is that many of the many people who believe they have done it really have not.
Kerri Lemoie: I might yeah I could add just a little bit to that which is that the VC-EDU recommendation the model recommendation report hasn't been released yet but will be released probably early summer and that open Badges and CLR I have just made to allowing to VCS so we haven't actually been doing the sit-in up interoperable way yet or is interoperable as we could be and so this is a push toward starting that so it is very rarely although we do have some.
Kerri Lemoie: Stations they're not exactly exactly.
Kerri Lemoie: They will be going forward.
<phil_l_(p1)> +q
Kerri Lemoie: Dimitri you're in the queue.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Thanks yeah I wanted to chime in respond to Marty hi I think we can't underestimate the sheer difficulty of doing cross-platform cross language hello world with digital signatures like I think you would be shocked the amount of issues and wallets that can't handle the hello world yet so baby steps.
Kerri Lemoie: Manu you have the floor.
Marty Reed: +1 Dmitri
Manu Sporny: Yeah I guess a couple of points I think the first and most important one is that our company digital Bazaar is committed to helping in this effort I know that we're early days and it's going to take awhile but our organization you know started in education many years ago participates in the Silicon Valley and interop.
Manu Sporny: G and we.
Manu Sporny: A great need for the type of interoperability testing that that jff is is proposing here so we do plan to participate I know that you know the path isn't quite clear but at least looking at you know the OB 30s back I know that at least our organization can issue.
Manu Sporny: Any ob3 Oak you know hello world example today so we would be able to use we we can choose between two different cryptography suites we can take it as long as it's in verifiable credential format we could send it through the verifiable credential API and we can issue a conformant credential in this is using and this is not you know this is not a this is not a demonstrator this is the same infrastructure that we're using.
Manu Sporny: NG to roll out.
Manu Sporny: Angels to 152,000 convenience stores across the United States it's used in retail it is production facing stuff so we're very interested in helping in this initiative we are happy to provide you know our infrastructure to get us there I'm fairly convinced that we can do issuance and verification at least get you know some conformance to the spec into the upcoming verifiable.
Manu Sporny: Credential to a.
<dmitri_zagidulin> (I can say a few words about wallet protocol)
Manu Sporny: Group crypto sweets I'm fairly confident we can do that the only thing I'm struggling with is the wallet protocol and that's not a challenge just for the vce to you industry it is a challenge for all the industries it's being actively debated in talked about right now but even then we could reuse something that we used in the Silicon Valley Innovation program like chappie to move something from an.
<deb_everhart> current text of the near final OB3 spec
<kerri_lemoie> Will call on Dmitri_Zagidulin next (then Phil)
Manu Sporny: To a wallet and display it there so all the pieces are there and it's good that we're saying that you know it's going to take you know multiple interop fests to get to where we want to get to but I just wanted to speak in support of the initiative I think it's a great initiative our company is absolutely you know willing to participate and will you know over the next year or more that's it.
Kerri Lemoie: Thank you my new Sharon do you have anything before I call I'm Dimitri.
Sharon Leu: No I appreciate those comments money let's call entry.
Kerri Lemoie: Energy of the floor.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Thank you yeah I want to say big +1 to what Manu said said so one of the one of the interesting and difficult things about this interop and again even though it's hello world it's going to tell it tests multiple the full range of the ecosystem is.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Have to participate wallets have to participate to display we have to we have to settle on the data model interop which is will will all agree on an example open badges version 3 credential and most importantly which is what Mana pointed out.
Dmitri Zagidulin: The participants will need to agree on minimal protocol right so it is it is a test of data model protocol and display so in order to make this work the issuer's on the wallets will need to agree on a minimal subset of protocol so that the well it's can pick up the credential from the shores and display it so it's.
Dmitri Zagidulin: That'll be part of part of the cohort discussion.
Kerri Lemoie: Yeah exactly that's a part of the collaborative efforts of this is that will work together to decide those things they're not being dictated at all.
Kerri Lemoie: Phil Long you have the floor
Phil_L_(P1): Yeah I just most of the conversation just now has addressed the clarification that I was hoping to hear the one thing that I wanted to double check is that is the expectation that an issue will need to be able to issue their credential to at least two different vendor wallets that are in the sweet.
Phil_L_(P1): or is just.
Kerri Lemoie: Sharon do you want to answer that one.
Sharon Leu: Okay so I I can be swayed but I think that I am going to stick to my guns about this being a very first baby step and say issue to 1 although I would love if it was multiple I just want to be reasonable about how big this first step is so I'm happy to hear people's feedback I like in my bones want to say more than one but I am afraid that that is too hard.
Kerri Lemoie: Thank you David see you are in the queue.
<dmitri_zagidulin> I think the Query Languagee is part of thee protocol
<manu_sporny> Hrm, does "display" mean -- in the wallet -- or at the verifier?
Dmitri Zagidulin: +1 Manu - the query language is more for the verifier, not the wallet
<nate_otto_(he/him)> I interpreted "display" to just be visual in the wallet app, not yet through presentation (another baby step)
<simone_ravaioli_(digitary)> @David, Define “Crypto Suite” ?
Kerri Lemoie: I'm going to call Armani because I think he might have some answers to David's questions.
<dmitri_zagidulin> @Simone - for example, "this wallet will support Ed25519 crypto suite"
Kerri Lemoie: +1 To great questions
Manu Sporny: Oh no no no I did not unfortunately they're great they're great questions I have opinions about what it could be but I think what we're trying to do is explore well I don't know right so the the the high-level question David David raised some very good questions and they need to be answered at some point right so I'll kind of leave it there happy to apply more if if we get to you know that that down in the weeds.
Manu Sporny: But I know.
Manu Sporny: Kind of wanted to ask Sharon what does success look like to jmf in the first month or the the governor's Association right so what what do they need to see happen in this first iteration to convince them that there is something substantial going on here in understanding that that is just one set of you know people we're trying to make happy you know.
Manu Sporny: Oh in the first iteration the.
Manu Sporny: Is you what is this community feel is you know it defines success in that first baby step so for example my you know my opinion is is it would be a success if we could just get the data format issuing and verifying without the wallets and I completely understand the desire to put the wallets in there and get that protocol working and absolutely we should be working on that in parallel.
Manu Sporny: But I want to see.
Manu Sporny: If you know where where success is like or do we feel like we've made good progress if in the first iteration we've got data modeling or op in crypto sweet interop for example.
<dmitri_zagidulin> @Manu - I think verifying is trivial compared to displaying in wallet
Kerri Lemoie: Sharon do you want to have fun.
<manu_sporny> @Dmitri -- yes, agreed -- display is difficult.
Sharon Leu: Okay yeah okay so I'll say like what are some of my not technical like goals and then I'll say some of what I think are the sort of like things that necessarily have to happen in order to make that happen right so I think that what when we're introducing something brand new that people have just heard about what we want to show someone is that what we really want to demonstrate is that this is a real different path forward and that it can really.
Sharon Leu: Which is why when which is why I see in the chat that displays an air quotes I think that people just want to see what it looks like first as the very first introduction so we've introduced A New Concept to people recently we've said that it's not just a bunch of digital credentials which are hugely popular in education right now there is a giant market place this is where a significant amount of dollars in the education technology in the training and the employment.
Sharon Leu: Technology space.
<phil_l_(p1)> Is there a verification end point that all wallets will point to for the plugfest?
Sharon Leu: Funneled but we're saying is that in order for all of these disparate Investments to work they need to work together which is to say that they need to all have to share a common data format we'd like for that to be the verifiable credentials data format for a lot of the reasons that we specify in our report so now we've introduced a new topic and we've also introduced a new way of acting and behaving that is a little scary because it's different from the norm so for some people who I think favor institutional stability this is a way of.
Sharon Leu: Of us demonstrating.
Sharon Leu: This new way actually works like we're not selling them the Rocketship car we're saying yes rocket ship card does great things but as a first step it actually works these things actually work and they can work together so that is like one key goal is to introduce to a community a brand-new technical Concept in a way that is not intimidating but I think the second and more important one is for this particular Community to begin to work together to make these decisions I think a lot of time there are times there is you know lots of.
Sharon Leu: Aza Tories and a lot of apis and a lot of code and a lot of.
Sharon Leu: To get them to work together in real life and I think everyone has all of the right intentions which is why we spend time together every other Monday but I think what we want to do is to actually start to work together to make this real I think we all share this vision and getting a cohort together to even minimally work on one baby step is I think the start of what Humphrey Bogart would call a beautiful relationship and we want to continue this so that we all reach our goals I think what technically needs to happen is.
Sharon Leu: Is that.
Sharon Leu: Open badge needs to show up in a wallet and it needs to be understandable to people who are looking at it who may not have the technical background so I'll leave that there and let others way in what they think would be useful.
Kerri Lemoie: I think you tried and actually I put myself in the queue and also in response to this but also David's questions which are great questions and Bonnie was saying is that as a cohort we can dig into these questions and see what kind of what we can agree upon together for these deliverables display is a really big deal right we don't we can't really figure out we don't have a common display for these credentials that makes it hard for them to understand so I see that as one of the primary goals of this first step what we're doing.
Kerri Lemoie: And real quick though David can you put a link
Kerri Lemoie: In the chat about the.
Kerri Lemoie: Question that you are asking because there's a few of them and I wasn't sure which link human.
Kerri Lemoie: Deb you're next.
<david_chadwick> This link does not work
Deb Everhart: So first of all sorry my voice is not very good from a cold but the there's all of these different critically important layers of the technology they're happening under the surface and so this community is getting that work done which is super important I would say one of the one of the near-term immediate goals in terms of introducing this topic to non-technical audience.
Deb Everhart: Audiences is.
<david_chadwick> neither does this one
Deb Everhart: Li literally being able to see it so in our work with States and and governors and you know federal agencies these are non-technical people who want to begin to understand this concept and how it can be applicable for them and the people that they helped to serve and Empower so just to be able to see for example three different types of learning and.
Deb Everhart: Skill credentials.
<kerri_lemoie> Thanks, @David. Checking.
Deb Everhart: Three different providers alongside an identity credential in easy to view wallet is is you know really important first step for that audience and then I can see a Next Step from there being okay now you can picture this wall it let's put it in a storyboard or several different story boards so that you can see how a person is going to use this wallet across different credential transaction.
Deb Everhart: Ins over.
Deb Everhart: And it doesn't need to be a complicated story poor but then putting that into action and showing that that also is real I think is would be the next step.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Thanks I so I'd like to make a proposal to Sharon and the group which is if we're going with.
Dmitri Zagidulin: While it has to pick up a credential from just one issue to the star I'd like to propose that we require that it not be.
Dmitri Zagidulin: The issuer from the same company as the wallet right so we need a little bit of cross-pollination either like picked at random or agree upon beforehand but for example taking the case of DC's wallet and issuer.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Wallet to display a credential from the DC issue or because that's all we've been testing on that's what we've been deploying pilots on displaying credentials from other issuers is straight year so I propose that is one of our criteria.
Sharon Leu: I think that's a great idea.
Deb Everhart: +1 Because it shows the collaboration
<deb_everhart> literally shows multiple providers side by side
Manu Sporny: Yeah plus 1/2 what Dimitri just said that is certainly the way that the DHS Silicon Valley Innovation program interrupt fests work worked we initially had used chappie to move things between the issuer and the wallet back to a verifier and we tried to use different parties for the issuer and the wallet in the verifier.
Manu Sporny: For those of you have said that at seen the video there's this big complex like in by n interoperability thing that we did so it's certainly it's a very possible doable thing in time I guess the the question I had you know kind of looking at seeing that display is one of the things right I mean people need to be able to see this do we know what that OB 30 credential is like.
Manu Sporny: The the test credential we're going.
Manu Sporny: In what it looks like you know are we just going to use and display image or are we planning on the digital wallet doing kind of a rendering of the data what were the thoughts there so if we've got an OB V 3o you know credential sitting in the wallet what are the instructions to the wallet vendors to render that in a way that's viewable.
Kerri Lemoie: - I'm going to jump in on that question because that's also a really great question and I think that is what we're going to be working on at the wall providers and at bcig together and trying to figure that out one thing to note is that open badges you point out does not require a badge image so that will be interesting to that's a brand-new thing and something that'll be interesting to try out there are some basic required fields and then we can add some other properties if you'd like probably want to keep it very simple just a very very simple.
Kerri Lemoie: Open badge.
<brandon_muramatsu> +q
Kerri Lemoie: David you're back in the queue you're on the floor.
<phil_l_(p1)> Something other than a JSON-LD rendering of the badge contents
<kerri_lemoie> We'll make sure the OBv3 context is available.
<deb_everhart> I would recommend not the typical badge image, but rather a simple display of the key data-- to make it clear these are credentials beyond people's typical understanding of badges
<dmitri_zagidulin> @David - that can be the next phase!
Kerri Lemoie: Sharon do you want to answer this question would you like me to take a stab at it.
Sharon Leu: Why don't you take a stab at this.
Kerri Lemoie: I think Dimitri just sort of answered it in the in the chat that that could be the next thing we do we also think that's very important but we're really at this like Hello World stage where we really just trying to get a open badge into a wallet.
Kerri Lemoie: Next McHugh is Nate out of.
Nate_Otto_(he/him): All right thanks let me know if my microphone doesn't sound good these Bluetooth headphones are not right I actually - one the maybe suggestion that we insist on issuer and wallet provider being separate entities for this phase if we're talking about baby steps we may find that there is a wallet provider that wants to participate and you know they want to focus most of their effort on building the display logic within their wallet and maybe you know essentially we're just using an example credential.
<dmitri_zagidulin> @Nate - wait, an issuer interoping /with their own wallet/ is going to happen anyway. how is that actual interop? :)
Nate_Otto_(he/him): All blob of signed json-ld anyway so the presence of a particular issuing software that is a separate entity from them I don't think is absolutely critical to this phase of the work certainly it's great when we can do it and I encourage all participants to work with multiple entities you know one representing issuer and one representing wallet for interoperability but it may not make sense as a requirement and then a in the future you know.
Nate_Otto_(he/him): I would say that also to David's.
Nate_Otto_(he/him): Around the number of issuers we've seen in the open badges ecosystem so far that there are hundreds of thousands of issuers in the world as well it's not a very limited supply for every single individual credential of course there is only the issuer that has defined it but for all of the credentials in total there are many.
Kerri Lemoie: And it is a follow-up Dimitri I make some point here about I'm actually an issuer is dropping with their own wallet then it's not really or issue from its own well it's not really demonstrating interoperability if the wallet already knows that if she were would you suggest the wallet with a cedar another wallet.
Kerri Lemoie: And something we could talk.
<manu_sporny> I wonder if there is a miscommunication... feels like there is... can't put my finger on what it is just now.
Kerri Lemoie: Nicole right later.
Kerri Lemoie: Sorry did you want to try to answer that question if that will move on to John Q code next.
John Kuo: Okay actually I was going to say almost exactly the same thing that made said so I will I will defer but I will add just kind of add the comment that you know being able to cross issue is is a great thing but it seems kind of like so I see several you know use cases you know and I think that Sharon's original scope you know the baby step of just us all using the same schema.
John Kuo: Is a really good one.
John Kuo: You know fairly easily achievable you know I'm my head is kind of exploding in trying to figure out like how we could you know collaborate and it just increases the complexity of the challenge by an order of magnitude if you're asking people to use your wallet custom apis and everything else to be able to issue the credential you know we'd have to document in or work with bunch of things to be able to expose our services and all of.
John Kuo: That I mean.
<dmitri_zagidulin> @John_Kuo - the whole point is that it /shouldn't/ be a custom API
<deb_everhart> maybe there are multiple layers of scope- this is a short timeframe and not all engaged parties will get to a higher layer right now
<dmitri_zagidulin> we're using a standard API
<manu_sporny> agreed
<davidc> There is no single standard API
John Kuo: Complicated but it is like just a lot more orchestration involved in communicating with third parties rather than just working within your own team so I would propose that we do that but not for the initial you know I would think that we'd want to do it next and then that's easier than the last one which is probably moving VCS around from wallet wallet that's like to me one of the hardest things to do because the interop specs are varied and.
John Kuo: You know.
<dmitri_zagidulin> @DavidC - so let's see which wallets support which standard APIs
<manu_sporny> There is VC API and there is CHAPI -- and we have seen interop using those two APIs (though early days, of course)
<davidc> OIDC4VCI is defining a standard protocol for issuing VCs
John Kuo: I would agree with Nate or not represent but I also agree with Dimitri that it's not really interrupt until we do that but baby steps let's go back to what Sharon was trying to emphasize let's just get the first baby step done and then we could try to do another pass we're okay now everyone should publish you know whatever services and documentation are needed for other issuers to stick a VC in someone's wallet because then there's all sorts of.
John Kuo: Did stuff that has to happen I mean it's just much more.
<deb_everhart> all providers should be able to articulate their interop intentions and next steps
<davidc> I suspect OIDC4VCI will become the defacto standard
John Kuo: So I think that's it.
Kerri Lemoie: Hey son and there's some really good feedback that we can talk about.
Kerri Lemoie: And you're in the cute.
Brandon_Muramatsu: This is sort of on the same topic and maybe it's not necessary based off what Dimitri and motto have been saying in chat but the data request or the information request that's included as part of Sharon's call focuses I read is focusing on primarily the wallet I think that we need issuer and the issuer and the wallet to be different entities are from different.
Brandon_Muramatsu: entities I may be able to.
Brandon_Muramatsu: Support the baby steps argument that that's maybe the next step but I don't it's the interesting step to me and if we go that route that I think there needs to be an information request for the issuer's as well to provide information to either information to the Sharon and jmf like she's requested for the wallet or.
<david_chadwick> How many of you support the OIDC4VCI spec for issuing VCs?
<phil_l_(p1)> It's true the interop is hard and complicated. But the scope has been narrowed to just one other wallet than the issuer may already have. So this is minimally requires a different wallet than issuer.
Brandon_Muramatsu: Conversely jff needs to say these are the things the issuers must do like informed to the VCA API and.
Brandon_Muramatsu: The other things that mono end up chappie that mono and Demetria can talk about chat.
Kerri Lemoie: Thanks Brendan also very good feedback Chad and do you have any comments or when I'm taking notes about the feedback right now.
<manu_sporny> We don't support OIDC4VCI at this moment -- too green to implement, AFAICT.
<manu_sporny> We can support CHAPI and VC API
Sharon Leu: I'm only going to give a quick comment to that Brandon I think that brings up an excellent point which is like we haven't okay so I see that there's some discussion going on about whether it's like BC apis Etc I think that to your point like yes the issuer we would need to very clearly State up front what is who is the issuer and what are all of the things that the issuer will do and what does that look like from like a like a format perspective I imagined that we would bring like once we.
Sharon Leu: Like I think that our first step was deciding that this was the.
Sharon Leu: That this is what the group would do and as once we finalize who is in this initial cohort we will get together with that cohort as well as you know we will work on finding the issuer and having that settled and then work on this problem all together because I think there are a number of issues that are technical that need to be resolved not resolved in a way that you will now henceforth and forevermore do it like this for your product but that as a group for the purposes of this small.
Sharon Leu: Ation these are the minimum set of specifications that we would we.
Sharon Leu: Need to do and so that is what we would like to do together as a cohort and then I will say one quick thing and let Kari say more about what this looks like but this is also meant to be a learning activity for all of us I think in this community this has not been tried before it certainly and away for a lot of information to come out about what works and what not it does not in this particular context and we would like to make sure that we continue to work in the open so Carrie would you like to.
Sharon Leu: Like I know you have a couple of thoughts about that.
Kerri Lemoie: Nancy you said that perfectly but to sort of reiterate this that point about us learning together that is what this group is doing that's part of the charter of EC edu is for us to learn and move things forward together so this isn't necessarily about each specific product but all of us trying to move the needle ahead right push it all ahead for everybody.
<simone_ravaioli_(digitary)> Should there be a call out to issuers or we just define one dumb “hello world”OB3 and use that to be displayed by any numbers of wallet providers ?
Manu Sporny: Let's see this is kind of going back to the display you know the question of display still a bit stuck on that I wanted to suggest something so the easiest thing for us to do to to kind of display is a PNG image so if the badge has an image we can just kind of display that ideally if what we're trying to do is tell a story to the.
Manu Sporny: The the larger end.
Manu Sporny: Hurry and get the display so it looks the same in all the wall it's what we've found out is that sometimes when a credential looks different in two different wallets people get kind of unnerved by it which is a bit weird right because people kind of view you know when they're used to their experience with like their apple wallet they don't freak out when Microsoft or Google decides to displayed in different way in their wallet right.
Manu Sporny: But when we're in storytelling.
Manu Sporny: Mode showing two different wallet showing the same kind of rendering of a badge might be something that we want to optimize for in the beginning it's also very easy to implement showing an image I did want to point out though so that's the baby step the longer path though is that we are expecting digital bazaars expecting that we're going to propose a display characteristic for the credential that allows you.
<deb_everhart> I think that's part of what people need to understand, that the underlying data is reliably the same regardless of the display
Manu Sporny: Play hints so it can be an image it can be a static image or it can you can specify key fields that you would like to have rendered so the wallet can use those key fields and make sure that it renders those before the other ones and then we get more and more dense so we can provide SVG templates where you can render badge data into an SVG template you can include that template in the credential all the way up to.
Manu Sporny: Having you know a web component so all these.
<deb_everhart> imo this is an important turning point for Open Badges to be literally seen differently, not focus on the badge image
John Kuo: +1
Manu Sporny: That there's a very rich landscape of things that are going to take ears to to Really standardize but my suggestion here for the first iteration is you know can we agree to just show picture like an image and then upgrade that to more Dynamic displays you know as the weeks and months roll on that's it.
Kerri Lemoie: Thank you Manu.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Thanks I saw I wanted to respond to two comments one about custom all the protocols that John mentioned and one I want to respond to Mono so I think it's important to highlight John I agree with you that getting all the wallet or all issuers to publicize their own custom protocols and interop is too hard of an Ask fortunately the whole point of the problem of the second size though is to demonstrate.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Support for.
<brandon_muramatsu> I would argue for display of fields and not baking the info into a single image, both could be supported (and probably should be), but I think we want to be able to operate on the data
Dmitri Zagidulin: Standards or emerging standard protocols right so we do not want custom issuer apis or custom wallet apis we want to demonstrate the interop for the agreed-upon ones in terms of in terms of the display model I'm glad you mentioned one of the things I was going to mention next is that VC Edge you in the coming in the coming weeks is also going to be exploring specifying a display.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Again for either hints or deterministic display between credentials because sorry between wallets because that's definitely a pain point we're running into amongst education wallets so if the VC working group or the ccgs going to be working on that as well I think we should obviously collaborate in terms of the whether to require the PNG or not I would vote that we don't require it that we.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Because as.
<deb_everhart> the vast majority of the market still thinks about Open Badges as tokens/display images and they don't know there's critically important underlying data
Dmitri Zagidulin: Others pointed out in the chat the one of the Innovations of open badges version 3 is that it doesn't require a static baked image that it that it allows while it's a little more flexibility so I think the displaying the PNG should be optional I agree that we're trying to not alarm viewers but for this first step while it should have.
<deb_everhart> we might need a little alarm
Dmitri Zagidulin: Should be able to have a choice in what they display.
<deb_everhart> for people to think differently
Kerri Lemoie: Thanks Dimitri we only have five minutes left I want to give Sharon a couple of minutes to a close things so I'm going to take questions from Nate Otto, David, and Mutuzo_Irene_Esther I'm wrong I'm like Medusa so Nate you have the queue.
Nate_Otto_(he/him): Choice sure just very briefly a Sharon suggested a mechanism for the cohort to decide on you know what specific nitty-gritty things are required once you kind of sign up and get involved in the program and display agreements is kind of exactly the type of thing that it makes sense for that I think it'll be really easy to be able to select a certain set of fields that are important that represent kind of the core of the badge itself such as its name maybe the description.
Nate_Otto_(he/him): and then if you.
Nate_Otto_(he/him): Exist in the badge I think it should be displayed badges for a long time have been visual symbols of achievement and just because they are now optional in the spec doesn't mean that we don't want to see them very prominently when they exist so I think it'll be really easy for the cohort members themselves to decide on what should be displayed and if we get a little bit of variation that's probably okay.
Kerri Lemoie: Thanks Nate David.
<deb_everhart> I would consider that a secondary display/presentation
Kerri Lemoie: That's really interesting David and in the kind of thing that we really want to be able to work out in the space thank you for mentioning it.
Kerri Lemoie: And lastly we have I'm sorry to say your name wrong correct me if you like I'm going to do so.
<dmitri_zagidulin> @DavidC - yeah, that's a hugely important use case. (for the issuer to be able to suggest or dictate the display)
<dmitri_zagidulin> (though not for this first interop fest)
<phil_l_(p1)> @David so that means for this plugfest it will be easier to display data than your licensing professional org.
Mutuzo_Irene_Esther: You could just call me Irene yes my comments are yes one around the visualization of the credential particularly for the African Market that's something you the the team that's working on this might want to also think about because it's not so much around in stages at em around you know that enter information in the credential so also linking that.
Mutuzo_Irene_Esther: So that we are able to get.
<deb_everhart> see the way Velocity Network has agreed upon primary and secondary schemas and display options-- primary is the same for all credentials and secondary meets the use cases of specific communities of practice
Mutuzo_Irene_Esther: African perspective then my question is around quickly of course once the team works on this I asked him that they'll probably be certain people that are going to test this out and try it out how we thought deliberately thought about the sensitization on this cuz that's all okay.
Kerri Lemoie: Thank you I am so it's a good question and we'll I will keep that in the notes to sharing the of a couple minutes if you want to say a few things to close us out.
Sharon Leu: I just need 10 seconds so if people want to discuss other things my 10 seconds was a here I'm typing in my email in the chat send me an email if you would like to join the cohort by this Friday and we will get a call with everyone who has participated to start this conversation about the particular protocols and display and all of the other things that we need to resolve.
Kerri Lemoie: Thank you are we can also start discussions in the VC edu mailing list which is public you can put it in the chat for you right now you see thank you actually I will send an email out typing it in wrong but we can start the discussions there and and ask all the questions really just put them in here we can have a discussions and keep this going in that thread as well as we get started.
Kerri Lemoie: Hey we're pretty much at the hour so thank you Sharon pretty much for getting this kicked off and thank you all of you for your excellent questions and then let's see what I look great stuff we can do here together.
<deb_everhart> super rich discussion, looking forward to slugfest!
<sharon_leu> This is great, thanks!
Phil_L_(P1): Thanks Carrie and Sharon terrific stuff.
Manu Sporny: +1 Thank you!
<taylor> Yaas! Thanks Sharon :)