The W3C Credentials Community Group

Meeting Transcriptions and Audio Recordings (2014-today)

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W3C CCG Weekly Teleconference

Transcript for 2022-07-19

Our Robot Overlords are scribing.
Mike Prorock: Welcome all to the community credentials group meeting Tuesday July 19th there's going to be a fun announcement up first followed by a quick matter of course related to VC working group 2.0 maybe a few other announcements as well and the main show today will be Daniel Buckner talking about their lovely collection of Standards known as better than web 2 & 3.
Mike Prorock: I'm going to paste the agenda in the chat today or the link to it there of just a quick note that this meeting is covered under the code of ethics professional conduct for w3c unfortunately we don't tend to have too many issues here with that and yet one more note is that this is a public meeting and anyone can participate in these calls but any contributions to actual work items you must be a member of the ccg with IP our agreement signed etc etc we do use jitsi chat as well as tightened IRC I believe still to actually manage Q I think the raise hand button is actually tied into the queue but otherwise you could just type Q Plus to put yourself on the Queue please do be mindful of time and other folks that are also queuing up you can always type.
Mike Prorock: The question mark to see who's on the Q which will.
Mike Prorock: Who several times during this meeting and q- to pull yourself from the queue if your question was answered.

Topic: Announcements

Mike Prorock: Relying on the robot overlords and various NLP and speech-to-text type items to scribe for us which is great with that I am going to go ahead and make a first announcement which is that the did press release the quit the press release for did core is out and there are quite a few members of this community that are quoted in that.
Mike Prorock: Obviously years of work from this community on onward I was lucky enough to come in kind of towards the tail end of that from a real active side and be able to engage on that and consider myself quite fortunate to be able to engage with all the fine people on that work item and really just really really excited about that and thank you man of for posting the link out to that press release so do do go ahead and amplify I think there's big things - folks like Intel on that press release for instance right this is this is a really good thing so with that any other announcements before we move over to a matter of processing related to the VC working group.
Mike Prorock: Check for that all right I am not saying anything I believe Kalia actually dropped one or two items related to iaw coming out on the list so just be able to look out for that kind of stuff I think there's some you know kind of remote sessions or hybrid type sessions coming up so just be on the lookout for that kind of stuff.

Topic: VCWG Input Documents

Mike Prorock: That man you I'm going to put you on point to describe the situation and then I'm going to actually put a proposal out for folks that have not been around for this we're going to take a we have a fun situation going basically the VC working group has reformed as a 2.0 working group and there are a list of input documents many of which were authored in the ccg and are currently ccg work items.
Mike Prorock: We need to find out if there's any.
Mike Prorock: To passing control of those over to the VC working group and then to process those according to the way the editors and the chairs for those various work items as they change ownership go so that's the topic for right now Manu do you want to add any more context there.
Manu Sporny: Sure happy to I'm going to drop a couple of links in here just for the record so as Mike mentioned the verifiable credentials working group Charter the new one that was adopted in ratified in used to create the new verifiable credentials working group has a set of deliverables as Mike also said those deliverables include things like Json web signature 2020 in the data Integrity work.
Manu Sporny: And Edwards curve in missed car.
Manu Sporny: Let's curves and all that kind of stuff this community the credentials community group has been incubating those documents part of the w3c process requires us to do something called a final community group specification so that basically means that we have been operating under a contributor can contributor sorry a w3c community contributor license agreement which basically.
Manu Sporny: Ali says.
Manu Sporny: None of us are going to hold the w3c or anyone hostage with any of the ideas that we've contributed to the specifications the so that's what we've been doing to this point incubating these documents at the very end when we say okay we're ready to hand this work over to an official w3c working group there's a part of the process called making a final community group specification.
Manu Sporny: Moment so I'm putting a URL link.
Manu Sporny: That there's a licensing agreement that goes along with that that's very close to the the contributor licensing agreement but basically anyone that feels that they have contributed to the document or anyone identified as having contribute to the document is expected to say yes I contributed to the document and no I am not asserting any patent rights or copyright or anything on the stuff that I contributed and yes I'm okay with this document going over to.
Manu Sporny: To the.
Manu Sporny: The the official V CW G so the thing that we need to do today is to publish these documents any input document to the VC WG as a final community community group specification once we do that then people can click a button that says I you know I'm not making any patent.
Manu Sporny: Assertions on this document.
Manu Sporny: So I think I think that's that's it let me pause there and see if there any questions before Mike you put that proposal in the.
Mike Prorock: Yep I've got that proposal queued up and ready to go and I'm watching the queue.
Marty Reed: Dad question once the work moves into the VC work group then only members of w3c can contribute or augment is that.
Mike Prorock: That's a great question Marty that's actually not the case so there's a couple of ways that contributions can occur probably the easiest is actually to be a member of the working group which while is very easy if you're a w3c member because then you just click and say Yes I want to join this group you can also just file a quick request on the working group age to come.
Mike Prorock: Doesn't invited expert.
Mike Prorock: And to start that process obviously if you're a contributor or own one of these specs that you know makes that much much easier so does that answer your question Marty.
Marty Reed: Yeah I just I just wanted to clarify because in order to you know originally join the BC working group was my understanding that you did have to be a paying member of w3c.
<brentz> happy to talk briefly about IE status, if that is helpful.
Marty Reed: It got it okay.
Mike Prorock: Yeah that just removes all barriers basically but yeah it's and additionally depending on the item like I know for sure in many cases we've had especially for non-normative items kind of open GitHub type stuff like depending on what it is for issues and stuff like that but it but typically what really what the most common path is.
Marty Reed: Thank you for the clarification.
Mike Prorock: Membership blood followed by the expert status cool Heather.
Heather Vescent: For more formal structure of what is considered an invited expert because my experience has been this is this has been said this is a pathway but it's actually a gatekeeper.
Mike Prorock: I you know I think bran you are on the call I'm going to point to you since you're currently somewhat involved in the VC working group would you care to clarify how invited experts are being handled for PC what we were happy.
BrentZ: I'm happy to ask you to do so I don't want to talk over carry though if she has a comment to answer me first.
Kerri Lemoie: Nobody was implemented.
BrentZ: So there are.
<kaliya_identitywoman> They let Tony Nadalin in as an Invited Expert after his super bad almost stalky behavior
BrentZ: Yes it is true that IE status is a potential access route for joining the VC working group and it's not an access route that anybody can just sign up for and get in the group with as Heather points out it is gatekeeping there are a number of reasons for this most of which is the w3c survives on member contributions.
BrentZ: And as such there are some members of organizations that are trying to join as an invited expert when really their organization is benefiting from the work in such a way that it would be most appropriate for them to join us full members of the w3c and so you know that that is one reason why an invited expert might not be approved to join the group other groups and other.
BrentZ: What it boils down to is that when an invited expert application comes in it is up to the chairs and the chairs of the particular working group to determine what they expect from an invited expert previous groups that I have chaired had the expectation that an invited expert would be raising PRS and actively contributing to.
Mike Prorock: +1 Manu
BrentZ: The current guidelines that Christina and I are following is that and an invited expert needs to be expected to contribute but those contributions do not necessarily need to take the form of.
BrentZ: Actual spec text in PRS so just so yes unfortunately there are gate key aspects to the IE status the gates are a little bit wider in this group than they have been in previous groups but there's kind of an overarching barrier which is that if you are a member of a company that is benefiting from the work then it's harder to argue that I.
BrentZ: IE status is.
BrentZ: Yet when the most appropriate step is to have your organization just joined the w3c so there's a couple of things at work and hopefully that clarifies it a bit but happy to you know take questions directly and feel free to ping me by email or.
Heather Vescent: I guess Brent like as someone who has been gate kept twice but yet invited in when I was co-chair I've not seen any transparency and I know one of those times I was gate kept personal and I know the antidotal messages oh if you're just friends with the chair they'll let you in and that's what I've seen I'd like to see a little bit more rigor and transparency and maybe you and Christina could kind of.
Heather Vescent: Of like document some of that so.
Heather Vescent: Lisa addresses some of the.
Heather Vescent: I don't want.
Heather Vescent: Nepotism but it's like I mean.
<mprorock> @Heather - I appreciate the concern (it is valid) - but this is a W3C policy aspect
Heather Vescent: It definitely does not look good from an openness perspective and it is actually quite harmful to the ccg in that we have such an open group and we're trying to involve as many people here in the participation but it is really hurtful if people are able to contribute to like the DID spec or verifiable credentials stuff here in the ccg and then their gate kept from anything further because they don't fit certain characteristics.
Heather Vescent: Or even like those characters.
Heather Vescent: Six aren't even like clear so it would be just really great to start with like some transparency of some of these points so that at least people could be treated the same.
BrentZ: I hear what you're saying and thank you for the feedback.
Mike Prorock: All right, Kerri.
Kerri Lemoie: Yeah sorry there's some good points Heather thank you for saying that I was actually I'm just one do ask question I'm making an assumption that any of the task force and the work items that are going on there none of that is related to any of this and can keep going as we've been doing.
Mike Prorock: Correct yeah this is only the items that are listed in that Charter which I believe may know I'm trying to think if there is anything that would come in at this point aside from you know the Json you know web signature type stuff the linked data verification type stuff right I think it's primarily signature related is that correct or am I missing something.
Manu Sporny: Correct at this point but I think you know if we get something on the record to say that you know what the the ccg doesn't have any issue with the be cwg pulling the work into a in do the formal working group then we don't have to come back and revisit the other optional documents.
Mike Prorock: She exactly as those things precisely if for some reason some other item came up and I mean that is kind of the whole point right Community groups and business groups are pretty standard so the whole goal is to promote them up into a standard zorg typically signaled if you're coming in through a w3c community or business group your signaling that you're going to take it to a VC working or you know some actual working group at the w3c.
Mike Prorock: I'm going to put the proposal in the chat.
PROPOSAL: Move forward with Final Community Group Specification publications by the Work Item Editors and Transfer all input documents listed in the VCWG 2.0 Charter to the VCWG
Manu Sporny: +1
Orie Steele: +1
Mike Prorock: So basically to move forward with final community group specification Publications by the work item editors and chairs as required and to transfer all input documents listed in the VC working group Charter to d.c. working group.
Charles E. Lehner: +1
Marty Reed: +1
<heather_vescent> 0
Mike Prorock: And if you were not familiar with voting you'll see an example in there which is Mando and or he's signaling support by a plus one minus one would support say that you're not supportive of this zero indicates basically a neutral pass.
Ted Thibodeau: +1
<snorre_diwala> 0
Kimberly Linson: +1
Kaliya Young: +1
<shawn_butterfield> 0
Kerri Lemoie: +1
Mike Prorock: I'm going to keep this open for a few more seconds here just in case we're missing anyone.
<econnell> 0
RESOLUTION: Move forward with Final Community Group Specification publications by the Work Item Editors and Transfer all input documents listed in the VCWG 2.0 Charter to the VCWG
Mike Prorock: All right I'm going to call it I'm going to mark this resolved and we will proceed with the lovely back in the office type stuff there.
<manu_sporny> woo!
Daniel Buchner: Yeah yeah can you hear me.
<kerri_lemoie> We need a party to celebrate DIDs.
Mike Prorock: So thanks so much for that all without further Ado congrats again to everyone on dids because that's amazing and with that I'm going to pass it on to an interesting collection of Standards at some other stuff Daniel are you good to go have a happy to present or awesome so I could hit the ball to you thank you for joining us just as quick intro if you don't know Daniel Buckner he is.
Mike Prorock: He's been man.
<juancho> Tireless is the adjective for daniel

Topic: Web5 - The Decentralized Web Platform

<juancho> He does not tire
Mike Prorock: All supporter in all sorts of different ways for a lot of the standards were working on verifiable credentials dids Etc and one thing I've always appreciated about Daniel is the fact that even though he and I don't always see eye-to-eye oh lots of different things both technical etcetera he's always in the interest of actually seeing the standard come out to the best of its ability across the board and sticks to that and that's that's something that I think is.
Mike Prorock: Is always worth drawing.
Mike Prorock: The lesson from right of the it can be tough to do is folks get really passionate about this stuff and and bringing that level of passion and dedication to studying the stuff move forward literally from some of the earliest days of can we actually take any of these texts and turn them into something real and useful and especially hitting at the Privacy aspects and some of the other high value items that are coming about from these standards has been awesome to see so with that that's more than enough intro for me because I'm.
Mike Prorock: I'm not doing Daniel any justice and off we go to the web five.
Daniel Buchner: Okay I can get him down here me.
Mike Prorock: Loud and clear.
Mike Prorock: Apple to special is up and looks great.
Daniel Buchner: Awesome okay so you probably see this first slide then I would hope of the gaudy label or name the chosen the stuff so yeah I guess I'll just start with you know what is this website thing and why is it named that I think that's you know something everyone's been wondering is it was it is simple as two plus two equals five or any of these other things floating around up I'd say can provide some context and color the reason why we did this was one.
Daniel Buchner: We didn't really like you know someone.
Daniel Buchner: With browsers and on browser tech for quite a while previous to all the stuff you know there's a palpable sense in the traditional web developer community that the ratcheting of these numbers is sort of you know this third rail right and we're in this case I guess is fifth Rail and typically that's been something that hasn't been well received in that Community what five is much about sort of the erasing this numerical incrementation claim.
Daniel Buchner: As anything else.
<juancho> All my apes gone
Daniel Buchner: Say what you will about web three you know maybe there's some interesting things in there but there's also some things that I think have maybe been detrimental you know to folk two individuals both monetarily you know financially and otherwise and you know even privacy privacy aspects so part of what we want to do is create some separation literally numerical separation you know to skip for put some put some daylight in between it to segment out the.
Daniel Buchner: Set of standards that work all together for.
Daniel Buchner: We try many ways real applications a lot of the the decentralized applications you've seen touted under under the web three Mantra anyway have more or less there they're sort of like visualizations of on chain smart contracts and that's that's not to me you know it's kind of does the word decentralized application disservice in the sense that I don't think many people wake up I certainly don't every day and say my gosh I really need to be into that smart contract right now I don't know how I'm going to make my coffee today.
Daniel Buchner: They probably are looking at their phones and a bunch of apps on their phone.
Daniel Buchner: He based apps that have nothing to do with their finances it's not say finances aren't important but you know my goal over these last year's last decade or more has been let's get like decentralized versions of those apps going and a lot of them don't require tokens or any of those other things so the the moniker is to separate right the technologies that don't require those aspects things you might find in what three from the the actual stuff that builds decentralized apps so digging in you know.
Daniel Buchner: We want to evolve the web.
Daniel Buchner: It's beyond just traditional identity we want to involve the web to to adopt a new model where people are at the center and that's about their identity their data privacy what they disclose all of that and it's a holistic thing it's not just identity is traditional sense of like hey I do authentication I provide governmentally related credentials revving that's kind of that tends to be what we in the church identity Community have focused on a lot and I think it's a bit too much.
Daniel Buchner: Wider scope so we want the web to come to you want you.
Daniel Buchner: With you and want you know absent service to be more subjugated to the user which is a good thing and so what is what is what 5 composed of right there was web to there's web three or I guess I don't know what what there really is term describe but there certainly is worth five and what that is is a decentralized web platform comprised of their last developers to a decentralized web apps with dids decentralized webnotes some form of standardized personal data store I'll leave it at that and then.
Daniel Buchner: I follow credentials in there as well but those two things those three things in concert.
Daniel Buchner: Label enable people to build decentralized web apps and that's that's really what we envision is what fine so the pillars would vibrate like I said before dids verifiable credentials decentralized web knows Community has done a great job of first to you know be seized or standardized for deities but now deities are standard as well and we're really missing one piece we're missing circling the wagons around a application capable personal data store that can act as the foundational Center of queries.
Daniel Buchner: And you know all the things.
<mprorock> I see you Ted - and great question - holding some questions to a good break point
Daniel Buchner: Is that you would need to do if you're building robust web applications and that's that's sort of the last pillar that we all have to work on is a DW ends well you know maybe there's a debate about that but we have a strong conviction about it so decentralized Enterprise I'm not going to spend much time on these because you all know this stuff this is a slight at those developed for more people than just ourselves I'm not really going to go over it you know DIY is important you can't have decentralized Identity or user-centric data you know really without them verified.
Daniel Buchner: Credentials also you know something everyone's familiar with so I'll just skip over it the last piece is.
Daniel Buchner: The personal data store peace what do we need in a personal taste or even if you didn't see the name for this particular personal data store after topping and if and w3c what would you want right what are the things that need it needs to do well I think it has to be universally addressable so you have to be able to find a disorder of didd through a common means I believe that replication is really important I think if you do it later if you don't sort of build with it in mind immediately.
Daniel Buchner: Only you kind of tend to back yourself in a corner with your architectures and it becomes really difficult so.
Daniel Buchner: Multi-Device masterless operation the default really from the beginning or else it is very hard to backfill need to be secure so optionally encrypted data you know if someone wants to make something publicly a tweet obviously they should be able to if someone wants to encrypt something with the medical records they should be able to semantic Discovery right so I strongly believe that the world is sort of architected in a way where things are obscured behind walls of HTML and proprietary apis and it's that.
Daniel Buchner: Inability to sort of query against just a known peace.
Daniel Buchner: Right an own data type and that's something that's just not really present in the world today we kind of even when people do agree on data types like maybe gs1 or others they'll tend to stick them behind a proprietary API that does access to some you know custom means that they choose and it makes it really hard to interoperate and sort of have that Mashable web so semantics Discovery and data encoding is really important asynchronous message threads like this is one thing you'll see like ytc falls falls victim to and certain other protocols like.
Daniel Buchner: They're based on you know web connection there's nowhere to go drop off sort of like you would an email something that happens days.
Daniel Buchner: You in an early early days verifiable credentials very to be going from a world of analog to digital so in fact it's not a ramp problem we face this problem immediately anytime you're going to interface the business who has a back-end process to be able to get things over into VC there may be hours or days potentially especially for working the government obviously to get these things transferred and that means that people are going to have to come back and be able to get the credentials its output now you know there's a lot of schemes for.
Daniel Buchner: Being and all this sort of nonsense but I mean those are just super ugly it's just a lot better if something notes your t.i..
Daniel Buchner: That's why synchrony in interactions is important and I'll leave it there but basically you know that's that's the final pillar you some of you may be working on this piece which I didn't really a pillar technology as much as is easier Aid we think about five is going to have to have wallets that are capable of all the things you would imagine which is you know of did functionality data management credentials authentication authorization and then managing context which dids my using which parties so some of you already working.
Daniel Buchner: This that's great you know block will be pretty soon wallet it'll be up to 2020.
<kerri_lemoie> Could we get a link to the slides? They're a little hard to read because they're flashing in and out.
Daniel Buchner: Be capable of doing all these things as well so what is web fives Network topology kind of when we pull that through and to 10,000 feet it's combination of decentralized identifiers and centralized web nodes those can live on user devices and in remote they are not subservient to their remotes they don't trust them for authorization invocations they don't take their word for it they circulate data you know replicated fashion and if you know someone's d i d like in this case a listening booth.
Daniel Buchner: ABS ID you can look it up by looking at their service endpoints.
Daniel Buchner: Know how to interact you this is going to be a standard form of DeStorm messaging relay so Bob can ask and send Bob messages Bob Benson Alice back messages.
Mike Prorock: +1 Keri - we can get this (or a version) posted to the mailing list
Daniel Buchner: What is the stock look like Sophia did talk about web Faisal stack you know its foundations decentralized identifiers.
Mike Prorock: Good I am watching Ted hike.
Orie Steele: -1 To interrupting and not following the process
TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_( I'm going to I'm sorry I'm going to jump in and speak because the queue is not being watched and so things are not happening wait Mike wait Mike Carey just asked if we get a get a link from slides and I would ask the same thing because they are very difficult to read because the style sheet is not conducive to this kind of presentation and then if we could also start to actually look at the questions as they're happening because it doesn't make sense.
TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_( My question to wait until the end of the.
TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_( Because I'm just going to phase out based on what's being talked about because it's skipping over a very key question.
Daniel Buchner: Okay I can get the slide I can get a link to the slides there is actually one this was published by the way on Twitter and Linkedin and our website so there's all available if you go to TV dot website there's there's stuff there I'll make sure to get a link to that stuff you know towards the Earth.
TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_( I'm sorry seeking the web is not helpful at this juncture.
Daniel Buchner: Okay yeah I don't I have to go in and crawl in like look around for it like right now and probably deviate for a few minutes if that's.
<heather_vescent> Daniel, you've lost me too with this preso.
Mike Prorock: Ted as I noted in the chat we will make sure to post copy of the slides up to the mailing list as soon as they're available so.
<orie> this hostility is not appropriate
TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_( And once again that is very difficult to follow when we're trying to follow what is being described on the slides Distributing the slide deck in advance of the presentation as a necessary thing and yes I'm being angry and frustrated right now because that is what could have happened at least hours ago if not days ago.
Manu Sporny: Lincoln chat Ted I just dropped it in there.
TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_( Thank you manu.
<manu_sporny> /me curtsies.
<kerri_lemoie> Thanks for the link
Daniel Buchner: Okay so yeah if you look at this from a staff perspective you know with the centralized their Fires at the base do you have nodes or personal data store insert here no we're all going to try and work towards slamming that and then you'll see this DW a model so how do we how do we make decentralize web apps we're going out a little bit but on top is what everything else sits on so whether that's the div version of signal or TV decks or exchange thing we're building everything else just use.
Daniel Buchner: These components and these pipes and can be built on it so.
Daniel Buchner: A little bit too like what are DWIs well first probably helpful mmm.
Mike Prorock: Yeah for a Daniel you good for a quick question before we move on here so saw question in the chat related to differences from solid and I think before we get much further in the stack may be a good point to get it that Ted do you want to ask directly or.
TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_( Sure I can ask directly it's not very complex question it's how and where does this actually does this vision of a stack differ from the solid Vision this deck they seem to be almost identical except for the technical technicalities of implementation.
Daniel Buchner: Yes I think there's a lot of technical technological differences I may be until recently very recently I think it might still not have actually been there they weren't supporting Goods they were going with long failed proposal called what id that's been out there for whatever new 13 14 years some some very long period of time pretty centralized they mostly build on the Federated model so they have a federation concept is generally how they see these things being deployed.
Daniel Buchner: There's also kind of a lack of replication.
Daniel Buchner: Location in sync.
<tallted> This explanation exposes significant misunderstanding of Solid.
Daniel Buchner: At the same level that we're really hoping for it's much more like hey in the just like you have email you're going to have this pod and you know there's a higher degree of trust in enforcement of capability and stuff like that you know the authorization side so it is fundamentally a little bit different on the textile certainly different composition of tech and then a different output features and you know maybe there's some protons I'm not going to I don't know what the cons would be but I do know there are enough differences and features that we.
Daniel Buchner: I felt that that wasn't a good solution and I've been aware of solid obviously since its Inception.
Daniel Buchner: You working on.
Daniel Buchner: Interest prior to it coming to be so not with that team many times very well aware of.
<dmitriz> @TallTed - fwiw, folks from Solid spoke on the DWN calls several times
Adrian_: Would it be possible to dispatch my question as well at this point on the cube.
Mike Prorock: Sure as long as it's a good one so that we can get through the material.
<dmitriz> so the two communities (Solid, DWN) are not unknown to each other
Adrian_: Well it's a very simple question the the presentation starts out sort of you know clearly focusing on the storage aspects as opposed to the control aspects of a personal data perspective which I think we all agree on and did being a foundational aspect of it which I think we all agree on.
Adrian_: and so.
Adrian_: I am wondering just as a question of scope while Daniel continues as to whether he envisions they're being separate processor versus controller architectures that are sort of coexistent or co-equal in this web five context or whether one is sub including the other emerging the other.
Daniel Buchner: Yeah I think the typically in the construction of me and for you know the actual resource that the physical data holder of an instance like you might have been since your phone your laptop and leave you up and help them remove right or when on your desk on a desktop great each one of those instances must vow to evaluate the capability and vocations they don't trust anyone else like let's say in a typical model of you were to say okay I've got like some data over here on one server and I've got an authorization.
Daniel Buchner: You set up some some knowledge of the to have knowledge of each other and once one checks the authorization the other is just sort of a dumb slave to it and says well great like here's data that's kind of antithetical to the model of do you have nodes because they any separation any error gapping of the implementation between data and authorization is a scary Vector so they don't trust each other there's not going to be like oh well I'm calling over here to the data trust me data data storage provider because I said so because you know we have a relationship it's like every deal.
Daniel Buchner: No do she checks the authorizations so unlike a traditional web.
Daniel Buchner: You know token-based thing where you know you give a token out to someone that they can do things on the like maybe a server right don't go to that server and they'll present the token or the authorization and they'll put the data and then you have Downstream devices that might read the data and just trust that that all happened very well right just trust it all happened like oh I'm sure that server in the sky checked it took and everything's good any day that they take in is data I should have right deal of nodes or hostile they're very hostile to even each other.
Daniel Buchner: So if I have a deal of note on my phone and I have one outbound remote there.
Daniel Buchner: Right they don't just trust each other even though like the debug node remote one that replica checked a capability that was invoked on it by say Alice you wanted to see where inputs and pictures into your data store your local one on your phone would not trust it even though it's in the same ring do you have notes they're yours they don't trust each other so it's yeah.
Adrian_: Okay so it's just I understand so just to clarify then everybody in your model is both a controller and a processor.
<orie> Adrian I think so.
Daniel Buchner: There's no way to eliminate the trust right I don't we don't want to trust the other nodes yeah sure absolutely.
Adrian_: It's a simple yes-no question everybody in your model is both a controller and a processor.
Adrian_: Thank you I'm good thank you.
Daniel Buchner: Well they don't control you you control you tell them here's the same capabilities to to execute but every but what if the statement is that everyone checks the capabilities against the data so that it's like a triple check right it's not on Ledger it's not watching but it's every single instance of yours performs the same X Okay cool so yeah no problem so to understand what dwa is our first thing to understand pwi so if you don't you're not familiar.
Daniel Buchner: The term stands for Progressive web app it's another collection of.
Daniel Buchner: That kind of come together in the browser to produce installable more native feeling web apps and you'll see this in your browser if you kind of like go on certain websites like to remove like leave this one and you can install them and send your url Barrio click this button which side you want to install this web app and you know have its own desktop icon you'll have you know when you open it doesn't have tabs like a browser it actually has themed title bars and windows and all these other things so it feels more like a native app and then it has access to some.
Daniel Buchner: Capabilities like service workers and some other niceties that help it work offline.
<brentz> /me I'm only familiar with NWAs
<mprorock> /me thinks brent wins the comment contest so far
Daniel Buchner: And it just feels you know more like an apple experience so what are PW as well for would have DW is rather we want to go from PW is to decentralize web apps and that's where we kind of embed certain D ID and decentralized webnode sdks into a standard service worker that you would use as developer for installing an app and it allows you to ask the users wallet there D ID W for authorization to be able to do interact with certain portion of your data store and then.
Daniel Buchner: Allows them to actually have this offline user-centric to experience just like they would have.
Daniel Buchner: Offline did experience with the centralized servers and replicated and locally stored data so it's sort of subbing out decentralized app server model for something that's still hits on all the same apis and allows installable web app standards to work but then augments them with dids and personal data store capabilities so you a few examples were getting towards the end you find a did on the ground you know Alice does.
Daniel Buchner: She wants to know something about it you know the model you look up the.
Daniel Buchner: In the service end points you might go to the nerd you request and say Hey you know I want your banking trigger I know the schema for that give me anything that you have of yours that's looks like this I think each other and they would send back potentially a verified credential data format of that Charter signed by someone else recognizes and then she'd have more trust that it's a real bank for us we're building TV decks on top of this infrastructure so what is TV decks other than a series of messages asks.
Daniel Buchner: Kic animal credential whatever happened whatever the participant demands in this case a bank all they are messages and data sent between debug nodes of participants in this case Alice is sending an ask to maybe some banks and there's some crypto currency exchanges and she's saying hey I got this much this much in USD I want to get some some Bitcoin you know let's let's negotiate this and so that mutation occurs over do abodes another example you know we there's.
Daniel Buchner: He's got we have several other music apps.
Daniel Buchner: Little Jack recent photo.
Daniel Buchner: About how they were kind of doing some really rather ghetto Poland's of data from other you know sources to be able to give you your playlist you know seamlessly least in their app and that's because that's where like a c-minus version of what I hope the world is afterworlds more like hey my music plays distorted me and I could permit I can authorize any app to be able to be my music app on a particular device right so I can use different music apps on different devices and that's really you know an applications kids were going after.
Daniel Buchner: Last one you know we're all traveling a little bit more know the codes concluding or at least you know not not as crazy.
Daniel Buchner: And you know all these things these things we get hotel reservations airline tickets car rentals you know dinner reservations all this stuff sort of comes to either our email and we have a centralized provider who snoops over all our stuff and provides this kind of weak itinerary or we do some crazy authorizations for TripIt or a couple of the companies that have been you know ordained as the ones that can do these things and I think it should be a lot better if these things were verifiable credentials or pieces of data stored in your data store.
Daniel Buchner: And you can give other applications any application choose access to be able to render and experiences with help you.
Daniel Buchner: Oops so these are just some of these cases that we have bro / you know just where we at on realizing this y'all done a great service obviously by getting dudes in VCS are be there I think a lot of the rest of it has to do with some implementation robust implementations of those things and then adding the personal data store piece and getting that DWI runtime ready for developers so that they can use it easily and Bs code and you know just sort of be able to start you know boilerplate for web five apples.
Daniel Buchner: Looks like so yeah so that's pretty much it.
<tallted> that roadmap is not in the downloadable deck
Daniel Buchner: You know people talk about identity and what's identity personally I think identities everything everything you do is identity because it defines you right like my shopping list defines me more than my social security number more than more than a lot of things and so when we don't realize that everything in all of these apps is really our identity just sprinkled and helped by custodians and centralized third parties you don't really realize the totality of identity and so I think that that's what God represents its it wants to provide a centralized platform for all of that and.
Daniel Buchner: All the work you all done.
Mike Prorock: So let's see Harrison I see you on the queue.
Daniel Buchner: It's so you know I've been building a platform I think we always have been yeah so here's some links you can go to find out more about what we're doing but that's all again.
Harrison_Tang: Thank you Daniel for the great presentation I'm just curious for the decentralized web know how is that different from like ipfs plus like ceramic.
Daniel Buchner: Yeah so so interesting so we ipfs is a public by default Network there's something called IPS cluster but it's very heavy weight it's Mormon built for if you want to be like a pinning this large pinning service that serves doesn't work this data what I profess really didn't have a good capability for was saying like hey and by default I want to keep all my stuff private right maybe I want to make some stuff problem and we just saw that as you know that's just like table Stakes right we didn't want comfortable with you.
Daniel Buchner: Yeah and some ugly ceramic still might be another can't speak.
Daniel Buchner: And present day.
<juancho> Great question, Harrison. There is also Spruces Kepler, Verida's VC platform, Fission etc. The IPFS + AuthZ layer is a strong contender :)
Daniel Buchner: Yourself a couple months but still kind of has this hey it's all it's okay if it's all public which to encrypt some of the things and we projected out to network running can see it and that's that's just wasn't an acceptable foundational assumption for us there are definitely other features that are Beyond I think that there's like messaging inbox style features do you have nodes there are some CRDT affordances and D web nodes replication is a little bit different so yeah it's similar to solid rights like.
Daniel Buchner: Is are these all personal data stores when you squint sure.
Daniel Buchner: Like they do have different assumptions and capabilities and now I will say that you know we are actually running an and IP custom node inside of the reference implementation all we really actually rely on our IPL decode X so chunking the data in a way that's compatible with my BFS Block store and I feel D Block store but you don't actually have to run a heavyweight my professors at all to remind you of noted it really is just a data store that's independent now you could Echo out some of your data over the public address not working.
Daniel Buchner: If you decided to get help.
Harrison_Tang: Yes thank you.
Mike Prorock: Also my think or he's next let me just verify yep Ori.
Orie Steele: So you know you mentioned decentralised identifiers and you also mentioned sort of wanting to sort of separate web 5 from web three I wonder whether you can just talk about the decentralized identifiers as a component of this system are you looking at networks other than Bitcoin to create you know decentralised identifiers or to interact with the centralized web notes like talk about it more about the openness to decentralize identifiers.
<juancho> Yeah would it work with other Sidetrees ?
Orie Steele: As opposed to sort of being focused on.
Daniel Buchner: Yeah I know that's this is a really good point so none of the stock is is is hardbound a Bitcoin whether it be for currency purposes or for didd anchoring purposes you know the Exemplar being like ion in that sense what we're building in the duodenum reference implementations a pluggable architecture that understands dids in general obviously we didn't you know me to write a plug-in for every didn do so I think there's like 400 million now we wrote.
Daniel Buchner: For did web did key ion and.
Daniel Buchner: If other people were to extend that functionality but nothing in the entire stack of what five is hard bound to any of these Ledger's in fact there's The Ledger list is that are you can use it within it and is that help.
Mike Prorock: Yeah in quick follow-on for clarity sake Daniel do you happen to have a good pointer if someone's looking to add support for another did method in is there a Best repo starting place or where should folks be looking to if they're contribute on that.
Mike Prorock: Yeah no it makes total sense awesome Ted.
Daniel Buchner: Yeah let me let me go ahead and put it in the chat the repo know obviously this is still being actively developed so just you know understand that this is still early but you know we think we're going to be done sometime in full so if you want to you know try and get your plugins in there certainly do and then we want to plug in the universe resolver to so if you want to like have that to the side of it you know we don't want to not use that good piece of tech.
TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_( Yeah I'm not sure where man who found the length of these shared but the deck that comes from their does not have the roadmap and I don't know if there any other differences between what was on screen and what the deck so.
Daniel Buchner: Yeah yeah I'm not really any differences to roadmap at that point wasn't public a couple months you know month and a half ago we did actually just make the road not public the last Friday so I added it because of that that was also published in our public Twitter for TVD and and our blog you can see a teeny dot website.
<manu_sporny> I got the link from the
TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_( This is this is the sort of thing I mean.
Mike Prorock: Alright let's get back on topic here and we could take that to the list Heather.
Heather Vescent: Yeah thanks thanks Daniel is really great to understand what you think web 5 is it seems like this is a very identity data Excel data Centric view of what the future of the web is and that makes me think that maybe web 5 is just up your product name is there like a place in this Vision or the stack like I didn't see like I was actually going to ask you what's the web 5 stock for then you talked about it but I mean if it's like a god.
Heather Vescent: Op incrementation I feel like there's just a.
Heather Vescent: Seen from what that stock would be like there's a whole bunch of other functionality like transactions infrastructure iot those are just ones I thought I'd the top of my mind like is this web five just your product name for marketing or is this like an aspirational vision of the future of the web but only from an identity data-centric point of view.
Daniel Buchner: So when I will what I will say is again identities everything right everything in the world's identic very few pieces of data or not identity driven it was either put there by someone at leaves a trail of who it describes them right like like I most your apps I would say your identity apps don't actually contain most of your identity Monsieur it is strewn about Google Facebook like they own your identity that's who owns you so when you bring a Peyote yeah I mean I do we do see this as a vision for what the future Evolution the web can be right not just a product name.
Daniel Buchner: Knocking put it on his product and that's those never desires just sort of like hey someone came up with the name web.
Daniel Buchner: One point right so someone.
<heather_vescent> Bruce Schneier uses Internet+
<mprorock> fyi has some strong potential for integration
<heather_vescent> And tons of people are dreaming of owning the name that describes what the next iteration of the web will be.
Daniel Buchner: Come up with a different one what I'll say about to give you example Heather iot right certainly this is for it right because you know iot devices have identity the probably have to deprive a backing digital twin that could be a decentralized webnode you might interact with them for a purposes like you go to your door you're going to send the debug node that backs that door lock that has a PID you know and unlock signal in the form of an invocation capability so yeah I know I think that this totally spans just about every application use case you know that you can imagine if.
Daniel Buchner: Because it at the end when you say data and identity I mean those are the two Primitives that can basically be the.
Daniel Buchner: If you do look at it and abstract for you.
Daniel Buchner: So that that is what it do what note is that is that is a deal now.
<daniel> DWeb Nodes are datastores
Mike Prorock: +1 Daniel
Heather Vescent: Oh yeah okay but Daniel you need like storage to you have got a place where you put that I mean I think it's very nice I think is very naive to like reframe the the internet from an identity perspective I mean like it's genius in some way to but I think it also is a very biased view that leaves out other perspectives that are equally valid that said you know you can run your own.
Heather Vescent: Acting company the way.
Heather Vescent: It but I think it is problematic if you're going to put forth an identifier like the web 5 that is aspirational something that's like framing to an order to the community without like getting feedback from the community or I mean whatever it's fine it's your vision that's cool you can have it I got my.
<rodolfo_miranda> is DIDComm also contemplated in the stack ?
<juancho> The discord is pretty active, fwiw
Daniel Buchner: Yeah no I get it I mean the weapon people never came to me personally and asked me how they how I felt about it so I don't feel like I need to ask their permission either but but you know I mean that's just how the cookie crumbles in five pieces at this point but I would say that you know it is it is a datastore so like we talked about where's the storage like that is what these do have notes are there not like a light relay that like forgets data they are the datastore the facts your stuff and so not all apps can be built with just pushing data to the user we realize that and obviously like there's some apps.
<juancho> I would like to hear an answer to Rodolfo's question
Daniel Buchner: Did you heavy computation and massive workloads in the business stuff and they're still going to be clouds I mean I'm not saying.
Daniel Buchner: Everything's going as do you have known.
Daniel Buchner: Vast majority of consumer apps I believe can push their data to you and interact with it to more directly and I think that that's that's what we'd like to see is the intelligent Edge and data people coming to you if that makes sense.
<juancho> I'm somewhere loud tho so won't q+
<tallted> The roadmap in the tweetstream is a graphic ...
Mike Prorock: Awesome cool and I keep myself just wanted to ask it because obviously you guys are leveraging some standards that obviously you personally have put a lot of sweat effort into you know both from prior Incarnation and current the you know where are you going from the standard side like how are you handling kind of the you know the website is that just going to you know be a diff thing or is that going to be you know are there other aspect at ietf and or.
Mike Prorock: W3c from a directional standpoint obviously with.
Mike Prorock: No going on right now right there there's some standards at you know points there I mean what do you see from that path forward where do you see kind of the openness and philosophy obviously you guys have started very open is that going to be maintained right or is danger down the Google path for right.
Daniel Buchner: Yeah absolutely yeah soon the whole thing me Jack Jack you know his tweets that preceded you know I don't know if anyone saw about a year ago he kind of lamented the state of web his role in sort of creating weird Echo Chambers and stuff I mean he's genuine about that and you know we're trying to say like maybe well put one proposal out there that can restore some of the stuff you know that he certainly doesn't like to see personally so yeah I know it'll continue to be an open.
Daniel Buchner: Dinner's wherever people think they need to go I'm not we don't have any sacred cows have any of that stuff so yeah I mean continuing to work and those three standards those big big ones are not the end right like if we really want like five to work if we really want something like this to take hold we're going to need browsers to recognize it we're going to need them to do did relative URL resolution on their own we're going to have to make sure that these the origin model is no longer bound to just DNS right these are huge.
Daniel Buchner: Judge other things in the standards and you know Industries.
Daniel Buchner: Going to have to push rocks uphill on so I'm under no you know I'm under no illusions that this is going to be easy or slam dunk anywhere and we have to work really hard and all these venues.
Mike Prorock: Yeah no awesome yeah because I think you've got the to w3c and then the 1.diff right for DWI ends I think that's the three kind of Corwin's just wanted to make sure that was out on the record there Adrian.
Mike Prorock: Adrian you're mic up?
Juancho: His q+ said he was going to ask about service and points and I was going to ask about service and void so.
<orie> sadly did:key does not support service endpoints.
Mike Prorock: Exactly yeah that might be a good one to close on because I know we're coming up on time here and if we can't we'll slip one more in regarding you know VC 2.0 type stuff I think for many but you know any clarification around like actual did service and points or directionality and things you see there because obviously I feel like the did course spec as an awesome start but you know as even noted in some of the fos right there still a lot of work to be done there I mean how do you see that rolling forward.
Daniel Buchner: Yeah I mean I hope that we someone actually said it got it wasn't maybe wasn't definitely in the minority asking about like hey someone's service endpoint scheme how are they doing did URL addressing like I think getting things like that bit more involved I mean we have a weigh-in the DWI the deed webnotes back that we're doing did relative URL addressing but I don't know that it's the best or great I mean you know there's probably a lot of flush out there so nailing that down would be excellent all the stuff that I've already seen going on VC 2.0 is really really important.
Daniel Buchner: And sort of evolving things Beyond everything's possible to like an arrow.
Daniel Buchner: Set of like.
<orie> DID URLs are a jungle.... path, query are really not well defined /used... fragment is the only reliable uri component :/
Daniel Buchner: Community believes these things are the best things the things possible I think that that would do everyone huge favors in terms of revocations young man who worked on status list and or revocation list as well that's great and kind of just getting the schemes into a narrower set I mean that would be very helpful.
Mike Prorock: Awesome and Manu I think we've got enough time for you to close this out I'll me you know 2.0 side.
Ted Thibodeau: True [scribe assist by Charles E. Lehner]
Manu Sporny: Sure and it in Daniel actually started in the in the last thing I mean you know one of the things I love about Daniel is that he has been very consistent about this vision for the future of the web you know going all the way back to your Mozilla days Daniel which is great right like you are you know one of the you know strong leaders in the community that's pushing towards this future for all of us what can.
Manu Sporny: We do to help.
Mike Prorock: +1 Manu - how can we help best
Manu Sporny: Lead the ccg in VC w g is there like we could focus on that would help the detail the the web 5 initiative you're talking about.
<cel> My question was to be about if there is awareness of name conflict of "DWeb Node" between DIF DWNs and (Internet Archive)
<kaliya_identitywoman> Participate in the DWN working group (it is jointly charted by CCG and DIF)
<orie> How to help web5: read the specs, open issues, comment, open PRs, share on twitter :)
Daniel Buchner: Yeah I mean I think that the ones we can do is really just getting to a narrow side you know side of like 2 to 3 for the things like revocation that are common schemes that cover all the feature need basis like some credentials don't need like you know Subaru cryptographic capabilities like you know just something like a set that everyone can Implement in their libraries would be great like right now we're just trying to cover ground kind of making that known I think getting the did relative URL stuff locked down and saying this is exactly how you do this.
Daniel Buchner: This will do some wonky stuff because we just didn't really have.
Daniel Buchner: Your guidance really.
<kaliya_identitywoman> Come to DWeb Camp
<kaliya_identitywoman> ?
<juancho> Props to Oliver for pushing the VC extension registey
<juancho> Ry
Daniel Buchner: How to do it and then on the on the datastore peace and men are you know this year we're going to do these their ceramic did I mean there's me and there's data stores like like they're rdid Methods at this point and do I know that you have nodes are going to look exactly like they look like in the first iteration put out who knows it's kind of a play it's one of them put to the community right but I think that's the serious component that will hinder this going forward if we don't circle the wagons around one or two probably not more than that constructions of these things.
Daniel Buchner: Things we won't.
Daniel Buchner: Sort of the exchange of credentials you know in sort of more nascent flows and we won't get to that data the other side of that data Island that has all the good stuff to kind of not not remove Google and Facebook from the lives maybe that maybe people want to use the services but certainly not have this been too beholden to them and so I really would love focus on that days for peace if possible.
<manu_sporny> +1, very helpful, thank you Daniel!
Mike Prorock: Awesome well that is a great note to close on the so yeah thanks again for the time really appreciate everyone's engagement contributions the you know will be obviously circling back again next week and that agenda should go out shortly but I believe that as jmf update on some plugfest stuff and things like that is that right Kimberly.
Kimberly Linson: That is right yeah it's going to be great we're going to get a update on BCE to you as well.
<harrison_tang> Thank you, Daniel, for sharing your Web5 project !!!
Mike Prorock: Awesome really looking forward to that and just love and seeing the amount of activity rolling around on all sides especially from an implementation side so thanks again all I'm going to go ahead and stop recording and Daniel thanks again for your time today.
Daniel Buchner: Thank you everyone for having me I appreciate it.
<kerri_lemoie> Thank you!!
<kaliya_identitywoman> come to this event Exploring Web3 identity for decentralized society -
Mike Prorock: Recording has stopped.
TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_( If I could have a minute of your time Mike after everybody else has gone.
Mike Prorock: Absolutely and I was actually going to request the same do you want to hit my cell or.
TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_( Here is fine just once the room is closed out.