The W3C Credentials Community Group

Meeting Transcriptions and Audio Recordings (2014-today)

Go Back

W3C CCG Weekly Teleconference

Transcript for 2022-08-02

Our Robot Overlords are scribing.
Mike Prorock: Recording is non greetings hello and welcome to the weekly Community credentials grouped all over here at w3c we are pleased to be joined today by mr. Jeff Jaffe our fearless leader so to speak and we'll be talking about w3c and kind of future and what it holds and you know what we can all do to make sure it holds a quick reminder.
Mike Prorock: At this meeting as with all meetings under w3c purview or covered under the code of ethics and professional contact so a link to that is there normally we don't have too much of an issue there but just in case.
Mike Prorock: A quick IP note anyone can put tribute participate in these calls however any and all substantive contributors to any ccg work items must be members of the ccg with a full IP our agreement signed so if you are not a member of the ccg and would like to be the link is going into the chat here and you could just click on that link get yourself a w3c account and get up and going these minutes in an audio recording of everything set on this call will be on our.
Mike Prorock: GitHub in the.
Mike Prorock: Action we do use the chat to Q speakers also that is bound to IRC so if you happen to be in on IRC on the ccg channel That will link over in theory usually to jitsi and normally just fine but the Gypsy Chat is kind of the preferred mechanism the hand raised also does join you on the Q so if you want to be on the Queue you could just type key +.
<mprorock> In IRC type “q+” to add yourself to the queue, with an optional
Mike Prorock: Add yourself to the queue and I will paste the official instructions because the transcriber doesn't always get it right and you can cute - all yourself wrong with you so we're going to have a couple of questions kind of fire things up and get into some discussion here today we do as always try to not hog the chat right let's make sure everyone's getting good you know good good chance to speak and if my see you all the cute.
Mike Prorock: Follow that is.
Mike Prorock: Or perhaps audio is not functioning there so we can Circle Wagner that quick call out we are using automated transcription for describing and the usual suspect will likely jump in and run substitutions Manu I'm going to guess we'll paste an example of that into the text box just in case someone needs help you know running.
Mike Prorock: Or wants to.
<manu_sporny> If you need to change anything s/thing that is wrong/thing that is right/

Topic: Introductions/Reintroductions

Mike Prorock: Script for us here quick Cola for introductions anyone new to the call that or has not been on the call for quite awhile or changed roles or anything like that now is the time to announce yourself and we can get you introduced.
Mike Prorock: Watch the Q also feel free to jump off mic I think I'm mostly seeing familiar user names and people here but.

Topic: Announcements

Mike Prorock: We are friendly group and we don't bite all right so with that I'm going to make it quick check for announcements I know from our signed the ccg we just transferred a bunch of items over to the beastly working group cleanse you would man who I know will be on cue probably on similar topics also ietf I think it's 114 was last week I was up there so we will be doing a recap with some of us like Oreo.
Mike Prorock: Also I know it's bias.
Mike Prorock: There because there are some overlap things especially around selective disclosure and whatnot Kalia you beat Mana to the queue by about a half a second.
Kaliya Young: Okay so I just wanted to share on this on Thursday August 4th starting at I believe seven a m-- Pacific we're having the business of self Sovereign identity virtual unconference for half a day next week on Monday night in North America Tuesday Morning in Asia on August 9th is.
Kaliya Young: Identity across Asia so if you are know anybody who's interested or exploring as the thigh who's based in Asian time zones please let them know about it and then the following week on August 16th and August 18th we have Heidi and I are collaborating with radical exchange folks so if that's soulbound token annoyed you this is your chance to come and talk.
Kaliya Young: Talk to some of the people.
Kaliya Young: I thought it was cool it's called these centralized decentralized identity for digital identity for decentralized societies I think and it's being hosted by the radical exchange Community but Heidi and I are helping facilitate so it's we're trying to cross pollinate and not you know we thought about putting on a virtual on conference about identity and web three if you care about that this is a place to.
Kaliya Young: To go and explore.
Kaliya Young: With others so and then of course iiw is November 15 to 17 an early bird registration is up and stuff thanks.
<mprorock> @Jeff lot of noise on your mic - so i muted
Mike Prorock: Awesome thanks so much and clear would you mind dropping the link into the chat on the special business context I think everyone was the link to yourself just in case because I know I want to fire that over to a few folks that were connected with and that would be awesome.
<manu_sporny> FSA commitments needed for 4 CCG specifications:
Manu Sporny: Yeah just a couple of quick ones I'll do the so the we are trans transitioning for Credential community group specifications to the verifiable potential working group we announcement was made on the mailing list I'll put a link in here there's a mailing list post about that we're moving over the data Integrity back.
Manu Sporny: DSA and Jason Webb signature 2020 if you work on those specifications if you contributed to discussion if you there are a variety of ways that you could have introduced you know IP into that document please make sure to make the commitment so you go to the links that are provided and there is a make make a commitment button on behalf of yours.
Manu Sporny: Self personally or on.
Manu Sporny: Your organization that's very important to making sure that there's kind of clean IP going into the VC working group please do not make the editors chase you down there are you can go to each one of those repositories and you can see the contributions and you can see if you show up or not in the in the contribution graph please go and check for those things if you have been any part of those conversations it's highly likely that you.
Manu Sporny: Sign that final specification agreement that's it thanks.
Mike Prorock: Thanks so much Ted I see you on the Queue here.
TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_( Just a quick one the the only person who can actually click that IP commitment button is your AC rep it's not actually necessarily the person in the meeting I can't click it.
Mike Prorock: Yeah yeah thanks so much for calling that outside because that's that is an important note that sometimes will hang people up so cool well without further Ado then I think we are going to go ahead and just dive right into the topic for the day I've got a couple of questions for Jeff to just kind of kick stuff off but first it because I know there are some folks that aren't.
<kaliya> Identity is a central theme for us. Recently, the DeSoc paper advanced powerful new concepts and served to ignite important conversations and initiatives around this theme within the blockchain space. Moreover, many other communities, such as the Internet Identity Workshop, W3C working groups, and others, have worked on related challenges and fostered many of the innovations that are being used on the current web with tooling developed and ready for Web3 too. We believe that the challenge of furthering open protocols that can support better and more scalable forms of digital sociality, greater local control and federation as well as composable and community-bound rights, is within reach.

Topic: W3C CEO Jeff Jaffe - W3C Challenges, opportunities, and path forward

Mike Prorock: You know aren't necessarily kind of you know engaged at the AC level and things like that it's may have less familiarity with Jeff or from you know AC calls or anything like that so it you know Jeff I did have to mute your mics unfortunately was coming up with some noise there but if you don't mind unmuting would you mind giving it just a quick intro and you know background on yourself and your role and then we can kind of go from there.
Jeff Jaffe: Sure well in terms of background I did my studies sometime in the last century at MIT and I spent 30 years in industry in a bunch of jobs and then after that I decided that I mean there were technical research trials management jobs at that.
Jeff Jaffe: And I decided after that was time to give back so I decided to take a significant pay cut and take a job that has been open for about a year or so I guess because no one wanted it which is the CEO w3c and that was in 2010 and.
Jeff Jaffe: What I've been doing for the last dozen or so years is working on you know matters of Technology strategy member came and Geographic reach diversity inclusion anything that that we can do to make the w3c community a better and more impactful community and and help us achieve.
Jeff Jaffe: Achieve our mission.
Jeff Jaffe: Which is leading the web to its full potential we've been it's been a good dozen or so years for w3c a section of community groups which didn't used to exist we have a factor of ten more people that participate living 3C than them when I joined we have 50% more members and the very exciting technical program.
Jeff Jaffe: That's some introduction I can go keep on anything but that's fine.
Mike Prorock: There's obviously a lot to cover but I you know I know you know from I think from my side and you know bunch of other folks I mean I obviously without the introduction to community groups and the ability to kind of incubate and things like that I mean I personally wouldn't be w3c member at cetera right so there's been a lot of fundamental things that come about under your leadership and.
Mike Prorock: You know once again I appreciate the time today.
Mike Prorock: Yeah that would be great actually.
Jeff Jaffe: You might be you might be interested in why we did Community groups so it's so I joined w3c w3c was a great place to standardize mature technologies that we're going to be standardized but it wasn't a great Community to start something new and you know by 2010 open source was particular this sufficiently prevalent that if three guys.
Jeff Jaffe: If I guys some three companies have had an.
Jeff Jaffe: They contain can come to w3c because it wasn't mature enough but open source they just said okay we'll just create an open source project and and they would do their Innovation and incubation there and a year or two later it would mature in the good case the positive case and then they'd be the question okay what do we do with it and some of them would say let's bring it to w3c and some houses they will why.
Jeff Jaffe: Why bother we already have a community.
Jeff Jaffe: And and so so things were just not those who she was dying on the vine because it was no way to get some new things in there they were just small little standards organizations popping up right and left and so we figured out a way to be sufficiently attractive to people to get started and then still have a high PR policy and a password and position.
Mike Prorock: Yeah yeah the IP our policy has been huge I mean that you know being able to start to get that stuff in right out of the box as been quite you know quite helpful in a lot of things when we're looking at interop across different vendors and you know different open source initiatives Etc and just knowing that it's you know you're kind of getting some additional protection right up front you know to roll forward and set the direction it's been really helpful.
Mike Prorock: You know I guess kind of at the top level and then I.
Mike Prorock: Three thing going on and you know you know some interesting timing over you know a a you know as that's all going to occur and everything else but I want to actually roll back a little bit more to kind of like the positive things because I think that it's easy there's been a lot of tensions in the AC especially lately and I think it's easy in times of change to kind of focus on negative side of things but you know I guess from your standpoint I mean what is the single biggest asset you think we as w3c is a community have and what is going to be that strongest asset as we're kind of evolving and going through this time of change he's a little bit of a two-fold no question there.
Jeff Jaffe: Yes it's my answer may sound a little strange I think the biggest asset that we have as a community is our community I think so you know counting working groups Community groups and all that said earlier factor of 10 we have to be a 15,000 people working in our community and we have some underlying processes less formal improve Community groups more formal for working groups and how the community collaborates to come up with new web standards you know it kind of looks maybe simple it's a document anyone could could copy a document but it's a set of cultures and behaviors which allows people who different cultures different countries.
Jeff Jaffe: Maybe speak different languages maybe have disabilities but but people all work together and people trust that we have this common goal we have this Mission which still today is to leave the web to its full potential it doesn't mean that people don't a different points of view we respect the points of view we have.
Jeff Jaffe: Sometimes we become really slow sometimes you know one or two or three people will formally object to something and it could take months till he gets resolved.
Jeff Jaffe: And I think anyone's ntid Community that's what I'm talking about but.
Jeff Jaffe: And there's a lot of pressure on us to get that done faster going to do a deep dive on that but the but I would just say in retrospect the decision was made and I believe that since the decision was made through careful deliberation now everyone's happy.
Jeff Jaffe: Process value of demonstrating once again that we have a community that gets things done in a fair and vendor neutral fashion is just enormous and very hard to create very hard to duplicate.
Mike Prorock: Yeah absolutely you know kind of looking forward a little bit you know we've got kind of a little bit of like a you know three months six months to year kind of horizon that I think a lot of you know on different items right you know from you know the legal entity aspect you know things like Board elections coming up and everything else what are the biggest challenges you think kind of fall you know maybe like the next three big challenges you think we're going to face as a community in this organization.
Mike Prorock: If you have thoughts around aspects that might help us through those welcome those thoughts as well.
Jeff Jaffe: So since I think that the legal entity transition definitely is top of mind for everyone nowadays I think that everyone who's involved in the conversations has a vision or view of how they would like to like it to turn out.
Jeff Jaffe: Includes members and hosts and the team and the 3M I find that everyone is so sure of their point of view you know that they are passionate about it.
Jeff Jaffe: As a community are accustomed to being passionate about technical issues and getting our point across very strongly on GitHub but when it comes to governance issues it's harder and I think sometimes the passions have gotten the better of people.
Jeff Jaffe: So I think finding our way through this is is a huge challenge I think the fact that we will see the board of directors next month late next month I think that will relieve some of the pressure because it will put in you know a like I was saying earlier about you know you go through a process and then at the end of the process long as the process is fair people are happy with the response over the risk of the results so it'll be so at the end of next month we will have.
Jeff Jaffe: Have a group of people that are.
Jeff Jaffe: And and then we'll slide down down more more gracefully from there so hopefully we'll get to that point I think we as in this league Lefty transition as in many areas of society have been negatively impacted by the fact that we're a bunch of Zoom boxes talking to each other.
Jeff Jaffe: Isis and I'm not even seeing any faces and we need to become people again and one thing that I've stressed about the importance of tea pack is that it has to be a place that we rebuild our community so for were extremely pleased with early registration looks like we're going to have more people than we anticipated which I think is great we need that you.
Jeff Jaffe: Even contact we.
Jeff Jaffe: To rebuild relationships and tobacco he important place to do that you asked about what are the challenges I think that's one another another use one which I think is going better although slowly is the director free transition Tim signal years ago that he wanted to step down and I think as soon as we finish a few more experiments and we can finalize.
Jeff Jaffe: How we want to work.
Jeff Jaffe: Free to to work I think he's ready to step down and.
Jeff Jaffe: But you know like with the ID there was some you know it was some delays it was some learning curves and you know it's been a challenge but I am pretty confident about that one.
Mike Prorock: Who owns the you know you mentioned something about you know just kind of see it you know saving the boarding us next month or whatever I mean I know and I it's I mean it's up on the listing right I mean obviously I got nominated in that side eyes looking at Horry right here but you know having held you know a reasonable number of board seats and you know.
Mike Prorock: Rolls and companies and nonprofits over the years I mean one thing that at least concerns me you know as possible blocker to you see the board is the you know it's things like d&o insurance and you know by laws and some of those things get kind of tightly wrapped up together right it could be sometimes hard to you know figure out the exact order of Precedence and what's required there what's your sense of how that's moving I know that the slow for a little while then there was a pickup now it looks like.
Mike Prorock: You know just from the minutes of the last you know kind of.
Mike Prorock: Like some of those issues are getting resolved around the bylaws side at least but it what's your read on that.
Jeff Jaffe: I think that pretty much on everything we are later than we wanted to be at this stage in time it took a long time for the community to come together on what the right board composition should be for this board of directors I'm thinking of people and as we went through the tunnel of arguing it out and figuring it out I think people are pretty happy.
Jeff Jaffe: With where we are for now.
Jeff Jaffe: But but but that took a long while and there's a bunch of stuff that couldn't get done until that that guy violence you can do elections and we could do some work on bylaws but then they're pieces of I wasn't actually depend on the short for the board so.
Jeff Jaffe: So we are we are later where I would want them where I would want to be at this point in time we have a schedule the schedule has us doing the elections in September so we can see the board by October first it has us completing the bylaws the bylaws committee is not backing away from their commitment to do it on time and on schedule the by the electtion.
Jeff Jaffe: So we have everything stacked up and we have a plan to get it done in time can I swear on my life that it will happen you know Blaze through happen but that I think we have a pretty good plan at this point in time.
Mike Prorock: Cool Manu I see you on the queue.
Manu Sporny: Yeah thank you for all of this Jeff and score of course for sharing your time with all of us today it's very much appreciated I wanted to kind of dig in on that it you know there's been a lot of kind of Doom and Gloom both in the AC and in you know in this community about what happens to w3c if these things don't happen What happens to the work that we've decided to Anchor you know in the community group which is attached to the VCWG, if this doesn't happen and I think that there's this belief that if like there's a very hard date here right and it's the end of this year and if all of these things aren't done by the end of the year than it is the evaporation and complete destruction of w3c and the community and all of that kind of stuff like that that is kind of the sense of kind of the Doom and Gloom I'm I'm I'm seeing over some people's heads that may not have been exposed to W3 over 10 years may not understand how the community operates may not understand that this is a multinational you know thing so I'm wondering what your response is our to that content that level of you know w3c is going to vanish at the end of this year in you better jump ship before that happens rhetoric is what are your thoughts there is that a possibility what are the worst case scenarios here.
Jeff Jaffe: So I'll try to give you three or four different answers first of all I am not a do Moon person I am confident that.
Jeff Jaffe: We're gonna get it done and now the governance in place I'm more confident than I was that I've ever been secondly in the doing wound discussions about you know the things kind of a 8 and the you know we'll have all these documents that are not owned that are just floating in in cyber space somewhere and not attached to anything so there was a proposal.
Jeff Jaffe: Well made that everyone should know.
Jeff Jaffe: Sure that they have a liberal license that if worse came to worse that the documents could be forced to report and moved elsewhere if necessary people ask me about that and I say sure if you want to prudently worry about a worst case that 33c disappears and you want to make sure you have a liberal license.
Jeff Jaffe: It's fine.
Jeff Jaffe: W3c is that the only way to get things done so it's fine so that would be my second answer the third answer you know what's really driving the time schedule is MIT MIT has announced that they're done after 2022.
Jeff Jaffe: The other three hosts are happy to continue in whatever form as necessary our ceremony member from vote from from MIT Daniela ruse was the head of the computer science and AI laboratory at MIT has committed to me personally and to others as well that.
Jeff Jaffe: At MIT will.
Jeff Jaffe: Make sure that we have a smooth transition so they're they've committed to put their efforts into doing that you know if if I some worst case scenario we're not done by the end of the year and we should because we have a board and we already have an A we already have a scope of an organization will have that Borden in September blood say it doesn't happen for whatever reason you know we have three other hosts and.
Jeff Jaffe: Lots of ways to maintain continuity.
Jeff Jaffe: Action so I'm really not worried about it but you know people want to worry about it then let him get a liberal license is fine.
Mike Prorock: I think let me just double-check Q here yet many do you want to follow on there and then I've got a quest ding.
Manu Sporny: Yeah and now there was that was that was great Jeff so I that that that is what I think many of the people that have been at w3c over the years was expecting like this is not an organization that just you know you could blow up overnight there are many you know hosts involved there are you know safety nets there I just think you know the people that are Doom and Gloom being it don't don't see those safety nets because they're not quite under that you know they haven't haven't been here for.
Manu Sporny: For a while the the verifiable credentials.
Manu Sporny: Working group we've gone through some level of this you know nightmare scenario of like what happens if things don't get done you know on time and that's kind of the same conclusion that some of us came to which is there are multiple hosts we already have the specification published in kind of a transferable open documentation license in the reason we're A w3c is for the community it's not for you know the the the documentation license although the.
Manu Sporny: ER license is.
Manu Sporny: You know agreement is vitally important so you know we were looking at you know the the end of the year as what happens if the things you know don't happen by then and we were going all we just continue our work don't lie because nothing really happens to the group it doesn't evaporate you know it could be transferred to a different host the you know the the multiple hosts still exist and so you know w3c. It's a matter of getting the things that weren't done by the end of the year or done as soon as possible in the next year and as you said it is highly highly unlikely you know that we're going to be in that position but even if we find ourselves in that position it is not the end of the world am I wrong in that kind of in that line of thinking is there you know am I missing some detail here about how the other hosts.
Manu Sporny: You know can't pick up.
Manu Sporny: It has a smooth transition and things of that nature.
Jeff Jaffe: You're totally right and I'll extend that and I mean you know it's only through C legal structure the host independent legal entity is a shell around which you know work gets done and and the objective of changing the shell is just kind of like some legal fiduciary reasons that we need to do it but it's not supposed to change the work at all.
Jeff Jaffe: Ways that we can achieve that continuity I remember, Manu, when the DID formal objections came forward you know you were saying that the entire credentials Community the ID Community verifiable claims and people were wondering can we get our work done you know the formal objection is behind us and there's so much to do I heard earlier talking about transitioning a bunch of specs I would to to revive the prints from the ccg.
Jeff Jaffe: I mean.
Jeff Jaffe: Groups should be moving Full Speed Ahead and and getting their work done and having meetings and in some cases showing up in tpack and seeing other parts of the community and driving this forward there's so much to do and that's where the focus needs to be expanded at this point in time.
Mike Prorock: Yeah Jeff that I think you just got it something really important which is a there is a there is an there should be a very clear separation between standards the standards process the technical work as its own thing right that should be not that you know that's the kind of thing that ultimately the legal framework is there to protect right but it's it's separate right it's not there to influence that standards process ideally right and and that separation a honestly is a good things been working today right.
Mike Prorock: While they're still that bridge there right there is a big difference between the legal framework that holds w3c together as an organization and the actual standards process and people partaking in the working groups etcetera you know I mean from the I mean I guess it's a I mean I'll just get at some questions that double-check cute but I you know I'm going to some questions though that have been just coming up talking other acps and you know just kind of reading the list and looking at minutes and.
Mike Prorock: Like that I mean there seems you know I.
Mike Prorock: You know w3c you know having kind of the step out or change of role or significant change of role from MIT you know that will change things from a financial standpoint right and then you know what's your sense around the financials around you know how that will adjust what's your sense of aresome you know when their relationship there because I obviously you know.
Mike Prorock: If I'm looking at it from a host perspective of my necessarily going to want to let go of member revenue for instance right I mean they so who's some nuanced aspects to this right that are going on and and it's tough questions I know and you're in a rock and a hard place between the steering committee and the AC in the AV and the community at large right but it's thankless and I appreciate the conversation today but you know what's your what's your feeling on that right because ultimately there has to be.
Mike Prorock: Be you know understandable and financial transparency.
Mike Prorock: So as to be a buy-in for the folks that are being financially impacted as well.
Jeff Jaffe: Well that's a good three-hour discussion so let me give you top of the ways from my point of view and then we can go as deep as you want in any direction that you that you like so the last financial crisis that we had in w3c was 2009 year before I arrived.
Jeff Jaffe: We needed a bailout and you know that Society gives it wrote us a two and a half million dollar check to to get our finances in check our expenses to matching with Revenue since 2010 for a dozen years now we've had roughly a balanced budget our expenses meet our Revenue it's very hard to save money.
Jeff Jaffe: Money within a hose.
Jeff Jaffe: Environment but we managed to for the most part meet our budgets there were actually a couple of years where orsome for a couple years they they were they were in the red but I think that was that that was mostly in the past at this point in time so going forward.
Jeff Jaffe: It should be the case.
Jeff Jaffe: That roughly speaking Revenue will continue to match expenses and we should be okay that's top of the ways.
Jeff Jaffe: These that I think there are three things that we need to do that I need to point out.
Jeff Jaffe: First of all.
Jeff Jaffe: Siang will have no Reserve when we get started it's not a healthy place for us to be in we've explored a number of ways to build a reserve including sponsorship programs we've not yet found one that has a consensus of the community I think we're going to post spin app we're going to need to continue looking because we really don't want to be in a situation where we have no Reserve.
Jeff Jaffe: That's challenge number one it doesn't mean that we can't make our annual budget for 2023 but but it's a pressure point on us.
Jeff Jaffe: Second thing which is noteworthy and different is cash flow.
Jeff Jaffe: Sitting inside of a large or larger organization like MIT you never have to worry about cash flow because this always cash in the organization to make payroll for example when we're an independent organization we have to not only make sure that our annual budget needs has Revenue meeting expenses that that is coming in at the right time.
Jeff Jaffe: So by the way.
Jeff Jaffe: Need to belong to organizations that are behind on your payments.
Jeff Jaffe: In the next couple of months.
Jeff Jaffe: Begging everyone to get up-to-date because we can't spin out of MIT holding accounts receivable we have to spend out of MIT with cash and and this is going to help us with our initial cash flow and will help us start building some Reserve so I'm not mentioning any names but if any of you out there are behind now the time to step up now the organization really really needs the money.
Jeff Jaffe: So those are two of the things which are going to be.
Jeff Jaffe: Is this a bunch of stuff which is going to get done differently and we think it's a wash but we need to sharpen our pencil a little bit more to make sure it's a it's a wash so there's a bunch of expenses that we will have as an organization such as you know insurance and will Insurance in general and you know we're going to have billing is probably going to be outsourced.
Jeff Jaffe: And so w3c will have some.
Jeff Jaffe: This is when we are an independent body.
Jeff Jaffe: That work gets done today.
Jeff Jaffe: Is done by MIT in cave University they do it on our behalf.
Jeff Jaffe: But they also charge us overhead.
Jeff Jaffe: Because they have to also recover the cost of their doing the billing for us.
Jeff Jaffe: So we think that more or less the first order.
Jeff Jaffe: The cost of getting these Services independently will be the same as we paid in overhead to the parent organization but it's complicated there's a lot of money I'm not a lot of numbers going back and forth to figure that out on the town so so all those things together mean to me that we should be okay financially but with a much higher degree of discipline that we ever needed to have in the past.
Mike Prorock: Yeah no makes total sense and I and it's you know I mean it's going to be a talent right man oh I see only cuter.
Manu Sporny: Yeah and you know I'm always amazed at how transparent w3c is about you know all aspects of their operation it's one of the things that you don't necessarily get out of you know organizations like well I won't name any but but you know there's a lot of transparency here and that's why you're keen on seeing all of the all of the challenges right most organizations don't need to share this stuff so.
Manu Sporny: So I mean I I personally have always.
Manu Sporny: About w3c I don't think it's it I don't know if we can share what number you know some of the hosts overhead was but I've heard values approaching you know fifty percent of Revenue right so we as a member company pay you know let's say ten thousand five thousand dollars to le3 see while half of that ends up going you know the host host organization.
Manu Sporny: In some.
Manu Sporny: Some cases it's you know more or less I don't know Jeff if you can you know Express that but it's an amazing amount of money that went to the host that you know frankly as a member company I'm not so sure that the hosts were actually putting in that amount of value I'm sure their overhead was that high because their University and they have you know many different staffs and Staffing requirements and all that kind of stuff but it feels to me that you know there is extra money there.
Manu Sporny: Potentially that w3c can.
Manu Sporny: More efficiently than has been used over you know the past couple of years I don't think I'm looking for to you to confirm or deny that because that puts you in kind of a Hot Seat but what I mean is it is it a significant amount of money and do you feel like you know just that in and of itself is is going to help or do you feel like well no there you know we're effectively we're in the same position it's just we're running more of the show meeting.
Manu Sporny: We meaning W3.
Manu Sporny: To be running more of the show than before.
Jeff Jaffe: In 1994 Tim berners-lee was able to get the Consortium with the ground and record time because.
Jeff Jaffe: You can do it on that without the hosts and in 2013 when I decided that change we needed to have China the Consortium I couldn't have done that without bit I'm University so the host of an extremely valuable from day one nonetheless at this point in time everybody agrees that it's time for us to become independent organization.
Mike Prorock: Keith I see on the queue.
Keith Kowal: Yeah thank you Joe early formative some of these not a member of the decree see more member of the community group actually you know a lot of this background I had a question sighs 2 B 3 c 3 C transitions to this new structure is it gave me an opportunity to really look at the fees this is doing identity like a billion dollar organization and now a smaller one and won't because I have failed to convince my organizations to join w3c to take part in this.
Keith Kowal: Great standards because they didn't see they stopped.
Keith Kowal: They thought the fees were quite High.
Keith Kowal: We couldn't justify them why don't we just do our work and other organizations so I just wanted to any thoughts on that because you know a lot of times these standards were working on and not fundamental to it organization is doing is more like a project that they have and sometimes it's internally hard to justify what I mean I have struggled with this.
Jeff Jaffe: But we're always focused on Keys despite inflation we haven't had a general fee increase since 2008 14 years we've held the line on on fees and you know in real terms including inflation inflation we're fees are down substantially.
Jeff Jaffe: Except Murphy's where increase was for very large companies we gave them the 15% increase seven years ago but we've introduced new key categories including startup members and medium-sized members to further reduce fees and you know probably in 2008 fees were fairly high and in recognition of that we really held the line on that so I think they really good story.
Jeff Jaffe: E on.
Jeff Jaffe: Going forward there is no plan as part of the legal entity transition to at the same time re-examined fees we have enough complexity going on at this point like that we don't need more but but once we get to the other side of the legal entity transition it's totally legitimate and I wouldn't be surprised if the board of directors.
Jeff Jaffe: Takes that it show up.
Jeff Jaffe: To the Future.
Mike Prorock: I'll do a quick follow-up and then get to Manu which I think it's going to be a little more uplifting I mean Jeff just as a kind of a quick redirect I guess you know it's someone who engages in a number of different orgs and engage more at the open source Linux side of things up until the last couple of years honestly just coming out of that you know free software foundation and Jen to side of the world and things like that.
Mike Prorock: You know and then winning it was engaging.
Mike Prorock: It was typically at ATF right where there is no fees and there are no member a you know it's like it you know how do you compare contrast Etc I mean what's the you know what's the quick response you know to someone who says well ITF doesn't charge me anything and I'm an equal see that they write.
Jeff Jaffe: So 80% of our cost is the staff.
Jeff Jaffe: And in my view the staff does an enormous job in making sure that everything runs well.
Jeff Jaffe: Other organizations like ietf does that does that through volunteers and volunteer work is basically just a hidden tax right so if you have someone who's running this is the top level of the ietf and they're doing the stuff that the staff would be doing here then their company is not paying dollars to to the IDF organization but their company is donating the.
Jeff Jaffe: It's time so.
Jeff Jaffe: So I think that's part of the answer you know is interesting in the early days of w3c much of the staff was you know working under tennis tutelage to drive the technology of the web and that's changed substantially in the years over the years today the technology is very much.
Jeff Jaffe: Driven by.
Jeff Jaffe: Members that's why we talk about the legal entity as a member LED organization but the staff has adjusted to play a very different and I think equally critical role we have a lot of effort in the staff to support those PCS Global nature we do a tremendous amount of Outreach in Japan China for example we have a portion of the statute.
Jeff Jaffe: Staff that's.
Jeff Jaffe: Supporting industry we have specific programs for media and entertainment for financial services for publishing in almost any industry that uses the web you got lots of people that understand what's going on in the industry who don't really understand what technology.
Jeff Jaffe: 3C team plays a huge connector role to make sure that you know whether it's MasterCard and financial services or you know Netflix and media entertainment that all these companies are are well tied in with the w3c another important thing that the staff works on is horizontal review so.
Jeff Jaffe: So we've.
Jeff Jaffe: As a values-based organization our values include making sure that all of our specs work well for security privacy accessibility and internationalization we have the tag working on this ethical web principles it takes a lot of work to make sure that you're not violating some privacy thing or that your suspect it is accessible and and that's where a lot of the staff investment that is.
Jeff Jaffe: So I mean I think it's I think it's it's a good investment yeah I know that it's expensive and I know that whenever we try to recruit new members into w3c we're a member based organization on an individual based organization like that like idea and yeah it makes it difficult and that's why that's why we tell the line I'm close but I think we've had we compare favorably even.
Jeff Jaffe: Ietf for those reasons.
Mike Prorock: Yep great Manu.
<orie> * as a small organization...
Manu Sporny: Yeah and I and just a playoff on that and then hopefully an on a more upbeat note it's not expensive I mean our w3c fees are really know we I think as an organization it would be a fairly easy sell to sell at least our board of directors on a fee increase and not by a little bit I'm talking you know 35 40 percent I don't know how many other companies are in that position and I know that now's not the right time.
Manu Sporny: You know to explore that but you know we've.
Manu Sporny: Of waiting for w3c to or someone to suggest a plane where your buffer is created by a one-time you know donation by all the members write something that's you know of forty percent plus of the membership fees so that it's you've got something going into this into this new organization so but I didn't want it I didn't want to dwell on that it's just there's I know that there's some people that feel like w3c fees are too much and there's some people maybe we're in the minority that feel that.
Manu Sporny: It's not enough it's just wanted to put that out there.
Manu Sporny: But really to ask a more upbeat question because I know that your life for the past year or more has been please Jeff Ellis tell us about this huge giant fire and how you're going to fix it right and that can be tiring after a time what are you excited about as far as new work happening at w3c new chance to you chances to expand you know membership new communities coming to the table.
Manu Sporny: Where do you see.
Manu Sporny: The the bright points you know over the horizon.
Jeff Jaffe: - For that softball question but before I get to that question I'll just comment that if your board thinks that you're spending too little at w3c we have numerous sponsorship opportunities which can you know absorb all that extra funding that you think should to come their organization what excites me is is really the diversity of the program and and the impact that it has because of that the varsity.
Jeff Jaffe: We get driven by Gio's by Technologies by Industries and by members me give you some examples of each of those in terms of being driven by Gio's I'm really excited about the mini apps work that we're doing with the mini apps work is that very popular in in China is it's basically a platform specific applications.
Jeff Jaffe: It is as well so it's hybrid applications and all the many offenders in China were basically using web technology differently and are many apps working group is basically figuring out a standard way for all these hybrid applications use web Technologies in the same fashion and and this is yuge I mean I don't know if I don't know if you have any people from China on this call and I don't know if we appreciate what's going.
Jeff Jaffe: On in China but.
Jeff Jaffe: There are like several hundred million people that are using this new form of applications and to be able to impact not only native web but also this hybrid applications is just a tremendous expansion of the impact that we have so that's not that's a Geo example.
Jeff Jaffe: In terms of Technologies.
Jeff Jaffe: Well of course credentials verifiable claims distributed id decentralized id but those are my favorites right can I say anything else there's a lot going on there and I've been pleased to see the growth of the community and and the recent increase in inspects are coming out recommendations and things that are going on to the wreck the right track it.
Jeff Jaffe: It's not only there.
Jeff Jaffe: It's not only the credential Community but there's a lot of work going on in immersive we recently joined the metaverse standards Forum which is a bunch of different organizations that are all interested in some form of the metaverse as a word or immersive applications is a more generic thing we plan to have a workshop this fall looking at the next level down in terms of immersive applications.
Jeff Jaffe: Area I mean we're looking at high performance Graphics engines and standardizing how those are exploited for the web we're looking at machine and machine intelligence so there's a bunch of things in that bucket and the industry budget bucket certainly the highest thing that's happening w3c today is to figure out how.
Jeff Jaffe: Users can continue.
Jeff Jaffe: You to get great information about users that way they can advertise on the web in a way that protects privacy a lot of vendors don't want to use cookies anymore and good reasons for that but then what I mean you still need advertising as a major driver of utilization in the financial model of the web so tremendous amount of effort that we're dealing on privacy.
Jeff Jaffe: See privacy.
Jeff Jaffe: Advertising technology those are some areas members I always get excited when we have a new member because every new member brings something new and the latest one just last week news corporation joined the new 3C on and they are huge as a publisher they have harpercollins is part of them their immediate property television.
Jeff Jaffe: Advertising and accessibility so we've had leaked through the pandemic we've had continued expansion of our membership continued impact as the world has moved increasingly to Virtual leveraging the web more than they ever did before all that's tremendously excited thank you for that question mark.
Mike Prorock: Awesome well I think that's a great note to end on with that Jeff I just really want to thank you for your time you know it's obviously things have been interesting lately and you know sometimes 10 spin it and I think that some of that obviously is a byproduct of a whole bunch of people who care really deeply about the web coming together and trying to make sure it continues right and grows in the right direction and that's actually going to lead to you know a a lot of well intentioned people sometimes getting off track but I really really appreciate the time as I mentioned look forward to you know seeing how the Board elections role and everything else and you know kind of seeing the continued Evolution to you know kind of a director list and direct member LED you know or because I think it's going to be a very interesting future when we get there so you know thanks so much again I would say probably 10 seconds for any final words.
Mike Prorock: Before I kill the.
Mike Prorock: Here and thank everyone else for their time as well so.
Jeff Jaffe: I appreciate the invitation and I appreciate dialogue.
Mike Prorock: Awesome thanks so much.
Mike Prorock: Recording has stopped.
<kerri_lemoie> Thank you!