The W3C Credentials Community Group

Meeting Transcriptions and Audio Recordings (2014-today)

Go Back


Transcript for 2022-08-08

<jeff_/_turing_certs> Great meeting you! I am trying out the app.\
<kerri_lemoie> Hello all\
Our Robot Overlords are scribing.
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): Good morning everyone this is Monday August 8th we are convening here the w3c verifiable credentials for education's task force as every week we have an agenda specific agenda for for us to discuss but first we need to go through a few housekeeping things which I'm happy to go through as I will be today's moderator.\

Topic: IP Note\

<manu_sporny> /me hrm - recording isn't started, but transcription is?\
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): So this is an IP note as you probably know everyone can participate in this calls but if you are a contributor to any of this work the credentials committee group work you need to be a member of this g.i. credentials community group and have full IP our agreement signed the links to those are in the email that you may receive with the agenda but we'll make sure to share them again you just have to have w3c.\
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): ID contributor license.\
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): Which again are things that we think recording has stopped.\
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): The recording has stopped so let me see if there is.\
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): I can't we start this again all right.\
<jeff_/_turing_certs> Simone, could you send the email for signing to as well? Thanks so much!\
Our Robot Overlords are scribing.
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): Recording is on.\
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): Quickly the IP notes anyone can participate in this calls but if you are a contributor you need to be a member of the credentials community group and sign IPR agreements those are linked in our emails with the agenda call notes we are recording if possible this meeting and it will be minutes of everything that is said and we archive those online for later review.\
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): and to queue up speaker.\

Topic: Call Notes\

Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): We preferably use either you can raise your hands or add q+ in the chat and that will cure you up and when we call you out you can contribute so thank you very much for that now moving to introductions and range reductions we have about 30 participants some of which here are never been without so anyone willing to introduce themselves to this moment.\
Enrico: Everyone my name is Emma and I'm interested in these topics and Simona give me the opportunity to join the meeting so thanks a lot of ammonia I work for elastic company behind the elasticsearch but I'm interested for these topics more about my teaching activities because I'm a professor at ETS CCTV monitor in it.\
Enrico: that's it.\
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): It's great to have you here and record thanks for joining us.\
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): Let me throw it over to Jeff from tearing starts.\
<kerri_lemoie> Welcome @Enrico!\
Jeff_/_Turing_Certs: Right I think you assimilate I'm Jeff from train starts we are we pleasing Taiwan and Tokyo so mostly serving like governments and schools based in the East Asia and the reason why we are here is because I had a call with Sharon new from the the FF laps and she said oh we're doing that very few people potential for called.\
<sharon_leu> Hi Jeff! Glad you are able to join!\
<joadel> Happy to into myself.\
<kerri_lemoie> Welcome Jeff!\
Jeff_/_Turing_Certs: 120 school was in Asia we should be we should be doing become the part of the community so it really glad to meet your own and which to collaborate with you and use the same particle standard honor for the feature thank you so much.\

Topic: Introductions & Reintrodcutions\

Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): Thank you very much Jeff and thanks for joining us from such a different time zone here I think we have a pretty good coverage and I love the fact that we have more and more newcomers joining the group that are located outside of North America in so that probably balances out our representation here that's great anyone else that wants to introduce themselves to a re introduce themselves please do so now.\
Steph_Correa_(she/her): Hi I'm Stephen Correa/\ I work with Sharon at jff Labs I just started the team last week so I'm sitting in to see everything that I can learn and thank you so much for letting me join the meeting today.\
<kerri_lemoie> Welcome!\
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): Absolutely please join us in the next few weeks to alright great so I want to review the main topics of the agenda today and then share it with my co-chairs and contributors today the rest of the meeting as you may have seen from our agenda we want to do a couple things today the first one is to provide space to answer any questions.\
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): You may have.\
<steph_correa_(she/her)> Thank you so much @kerri!\
<jeff_/_turing_certs> Thanks Sharon for inviting us over. Awesome to meet you all!\

Topic: main topic - Plugfest AMA & Protocols review\

Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): On the interoperability plugfest number two that we've been planning the other is to go through a bit of a review high-level review of the main protocols that will be involved in the plot Fest so with that said I'd say we could start with the ask me anything session of today's call to do that.\
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): I'd like to ask.\
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): Going to be.\
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): Me - I had a couple of times already before to to join me here in taking any questions that you may have across you know Logistics or more content related anything really the idea is that we're going to capture this questions I'm going to drop a link in the chat right now which is a Google doc that we started to capture any questions that you may not feel comfortable in asking directly or that you want to be traced so that should be a support.\
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): hello Sharon how are you.\
Sharon Leu: Good morning so many I am here can you all hear me okay.\
Sharon Leu: A great so today is a really exciting day I am going to drop a link into the chat as well thank you to carry who stood up this website super fast this morning for us but this is a project page off of the main VC edu work sort of project page that will be where we hold all of the information about the second plugfest and it has some of the initial FAQ that we started off with based on some of the questions that have been asked previously.\
Sharon Leu: And so what I'm going to do right now sort of.\
<simone_ravaioli_(vc_edu)> and if you have questions for AMA today... you can drop them here\
Sharon Leu: Human very quickly and then leave it open for some additional questions and I know that Simona has a document for you if you're too shy to ask your question but hopefully you're not too shy because this is a very this is you know a low-key kind of just ask anything because you'll want to know the answer situation so what I wanted to say is that we are opening the participation for our second plugfest and many of you on this call were able to participate.\
Sharon Leu: Eight in the first plugfest and so we are excited that you are.\
Sharon Leu: More and definitely please continue to share with us like feedback on logistically how we could coordinate this better so we are opening it today and the form is a Google form that is linked in the web page as well and the participation will be open until noon Eastern on Friday September 9th that gives you a whole month to think about how like how if you want to participate how you want to participate and the answers to some potentially tricky questions on the form.\
Sharon Leu: ERM and.\
Sharon Leu: Monday September 12th at 11:00 Eastern which is this weekly call we will have notified all of the participants about whether or not they're in mostly we will just be reviewing some of the information that you sent on that spreadsheet on the Google form and probably notifying people on an ongoing rolling basis but definitely cut off that will let you know is by September 12th because at that point we will need to start doing some real work you will also find on that website list of our tentative schedule.\
Sharon Leu: September 14th is going to be when we kick off the the.\
Sharon Leu: This is going to be a really fun kickoff I think that well I don't know I had fun last time but maybe that's just me and then we will try a regular Cadence of meeting every two weeks on the form I did ask this is a lesson learned from last time what is your time zone that you prefer meeting so hopefully we'll coordinate times that work for everyone or either split the groups or we will try to make this a little bit more palatable for people across a range of time zones tentatively we.\
Sharon Leu: Have final demo videos do on never made ninth ahead of demo day.\
Sharon Leu: 14 And the Monday before I W starts in California so hopefully we'll see some of you in person and again the logistics of a virtual and in-person event would love your thoughts and feedback on if you participated the first time what we can do better for the next time so generally this plugfest Builds on our previous one in plugfest one we invited wallet implementers to display a verifiable credential in their wallet we're sort of.\
Sharon Leu: Of we're upping the stakes this time and we're saying that not.\
Sharon Leu: To display one verifiable credential in your wallet but you have to display two that are not issued by yourself and in addition we've opened it up for any criticism credential issuing platform to participate as well because we want to iterate towards using real credentials that are in a live production environment so that's the general overview of it and I think that what I'll say is before I tee it up for the rest of the conversation is that.\
Sharon Leu: We are not going to choose for you how to issue the quick.\
<kaliya> Just a note - I\'92m calling in via my phone and the system isn\'92t letting me scroll backwards to see link.\
Sharon Leu: You have three options of how to issue the credentials you can issue them in the VC API chappie format the open ID connect as well as did come presentation exchange you pick how you want to as a wallet receive the credential and issuers can pick how they would like to issue so we're not going to dictate we're going to let this be sort of a how does the market look in education and Workforce right now and follow that and.\
Sharon Leu: And I think the.\
Sharon Leu: The final thing I'll say is if you did not participate in plugfest one no problem we welcome you to podcasts to anyway we did have a section in the forum for you to provide some additional information for us essentially we will ask you to also demonstrate that you can hold a verifiable credential in your wallet we will issue a to you to any did that you let us know what it is and in any format that you want but that will be your ticket in is that you have to demonstrate that your wallet can do.\
Sharon Leu: Ooh that so I think that's the general overview and I will kick.\
<simone_ravaioli_(vc_edu)> PlugFest#2\
Sharon Leu: 14 Questions if there are any or I don't know if some oneg carry if I missed anything.\
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): I think that's a great overview Sharon thank you very much I'm checking in in the chat if anyone has questions on your intro again so if you do have questions q+ in the chat or raise your hand and we'll give you the floor.\
<kerri_lemoie> Great overview, @sharon\
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): What's Oakley was asking for links will drop them again there for sure so I mean obviously today we definitely want to focus on plugfest if people are still shy or thinking about the questions that they may have given that what you said Sharon is that there is going to be possibly three main ways of issuing these credentials depending on the protocols that you decide to use.\
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): probably would be good for us.\
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): Review those protocols and I'm sure that that may create questions that we can go back and address but before we do that carry over to you.\
Kerri Lemoie: Thanks there was just one thing that I don't think Sharon mentioned is which is that as looks like first one with plugfest to we are encouraging all of this work to happen out in the open so we are going to be using the mailing list and we can have calls I have bcig you and basically what we're hoping is that your participation in the plugfest will help inform the ecosystem so that others can learn about how all of this works so just keep that in mind.\
Kerri Lemoie: And if you're deciding you're going to participate or not.\
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): So maybe I'd like to invite Dimitri to join us here in stage and Dimitri maybe we can fly over the three protocols.\
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): how do you say.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: All right that sounds good he let me post a link to the slides in chat let me just one second.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: All right so here are the slides and I'm also going to share my screen.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: And then we can start before we get into it are there any general questions about the upcoming plugfest.\
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): I think it can go right.\
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): Into the protocols are be reviewed metrium I'll collect some of them and bring them up to you.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: All right sounds good and if you don't mind I I can't quite easily see the chat so if somebody has a question as we go please let me know and we'll get started all right so let's go over some of the issuing protocols and let's go over what we mean by that and why it's important.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: The context is although these are things if you're working with verifiable credentials that your team should be familiar with in general and you need to make these decisions as part of your overall strategy in general today we're going to talk about specifically the context of the jobs for the Future Foundation plugfest number two so plug this number one.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: Focused on.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: Operability of displaying the credentials.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: Adebisi into wallets somehow and then let's demonstrate that we recognize how to display the credential how to display the various fields in it and so on.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: This upcoming one is actually going to be focusing on that getting into the wallet somehow.\
<simone_ravaioli_(vc_edu)> @Phil - do you want to ask your question now or can it wait until Dmitry is through ?\
Dmitri Zagidulin: The idea here is we want to demonstrate and we want to encourage an ecosystem.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: Operability between issuers on walnuts we want to demonstrate that.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: Get a verifiable credential into any compatible wallet during a wallet that speaks the protocol.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: And vice versa.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: So what kind of what's the user story here what do we mean by that.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: He really simple use case that we're trying to demonstrate interrupt for I should be familiar to everybody here in this group.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: Lerner has completed a course the eligible to receive a credential from from the issuing Institution.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: Now how do we get that credential.\
<phil_l_(p1)> @Simone - my question is does the interoperability question address credentials issued by an issuing platform (as I think Sharon mentioned) as well as a credential issued by another wallet to another wallet?\
Dmitri Zagidulin: Interviews possession into a wallet.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: Similarly if you are and this is a very the second one is very real use case being implemented right now by McMaster University in Toronto and I think we have the architect of that use case on the call here but.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: University issues digital diplomas verifiable credential format okay so how do we get that diploma into.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: It uses possession so the focus is preventing vendor lock-in because.\
<simone_ravaioli_(vc_edu)> thx Phil !\
Dmitri Zagidulin: If one party controls both issue platform and the wallet there's no need for standardization right they can somehow transfer the credential or just keep it on their servers in their database the reason we're all here for the verifiable credential self-administered ecosystem is so that we can decouple the individual players offer user choice in where to keep their credential and offer.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: Make it easier for.\
<phil_l_(p1)> @Simone :+1:\
Dmitri Zagidulin: Part of learning institutions so that prevents the vendor lock-in and all that stuff okay.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: A couple things to notice here.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: We specifically focusing on issuer to wallet interop the assumed.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: DD implicit claim here is that unlike previous iterations of Technologies like let's say PDF files or Word documents or expose Excel spreadsheets.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: We of the community.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: Have achieved the consensus that.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: In order to get the full use out of verifiable credentials.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: We're going to need to support some fairly difficult new operations.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: Meaning we can no longer treat their fabric Ranchos as just files right if we were talking about PDFs.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: Like I received a diploma in PDF or any or Word document or any other such credential you can only say oh you can just download it into their computer or into their phone and just store it with the other files and then later when presenting to the verifiers they can upload the credential to the verifier.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: We're not saying that's impossible that's still a valid workflow and in fact he the bridging between the printed page like printed certificates and digitally signed credentials is going to be important the same.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: McMaster University there were talking about the Second Use case about digital diplomas is also exploring ways with you know in conjunction with VC edu and the digital credentials Consortium is exploring ways of basically being able to have PDFs and printed certificates and also at the same time binding them to verify the credentials but that is a topic for another call what we're saying here.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: What I'm trying to say in so many words is.\
<marty_reed> will there be a new plugfest 2 credential or will we use a derivative of plugfest 1 credentials?\
Dmitri Zagidulin: As a community we've decided while it's important why because the whole point of verify credentials is that their verifiable meaning there's going to be digital public and private key pairs involved we're going to ask the users to prove control of their private keys I'm going to ask the user to authenticate themselves there are more complicated protocols than can you present me with this file.\
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): Dimitri just a second I have a couple questions here actually I'll let Phil ask the question and then Marty.\
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): Go ahead field.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: Yes go ahead.\
Phil_L_(P1): Okay can you hear me doesn't look okay Dimitri hi you mentioned that the you're looking at this particular plugfest a tissue or to wallet interop and I'm just wondering is issuer inclusive of what we typically think of as an issuing platform issuing to a digital wallet as well as another wallet as an issue or issuing directly to a second different wallet.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: Yes yes I great question great question fact that question is at the heart of some of the debate in the community and some of the differences in approaches yes we suspect we and I mean a credential community and VC edu in general a strongly suspect that wallets or wallet applications will evolve to play multiple roles not only receiving in presenting credentials and holding credentials for the you.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: Zur butt.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: It will be able to be used as issuer platforms themselves helping users.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: Create self issue credentials on any sort of claims helping users create endorsements.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: Because I know a topic near and dear to your heart.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: And in addition we were also seeing that most wallets are evolving a verifier aspect as well at very least when getting a verifiable credential into the users wallet wallet vendors want to give the courtesy feature of let's make sure that we verify the credential to spare the user embarrassment down the line.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: The verification status in the wallet user could receive an invalid wallets and later on when they're a sorry user could receive an invalid credential and later on when they're presenting it to a verifier it will be rejected so to to sort of front run that we also build verifier functionality into wallets in addition to the issuer functionality which is what you asked about so so yes and what was your second question issuer platform yes we whenever we say.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: Say issue or here in this discussion we generally mean.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: Form which typically means some sort of learning management system so yeah we're using it in a broad term.\
<phil_l_(p1)> @Dimitri - very clear. Thanks\
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): Thank you and Marty do you want to ask question yourself.\
Marty Reed: Sure so Dimitri or Carrier are we.\
Marty Reed: Just like the the plugfest one credential is kind of the base credential for for this exchange or is that changed or matured in any way for electricity.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: Great question great question I think that's still in discussion I think we are using that credential as a starting pay.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: Starting basis yeah.\
Marty Reed: Okay and then and then a follow on question on the verifier requirement or verifier are there I know I notice there's you know display components around displaying the credential itself but will there be any any display requirements around.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: Not at this one where we're Loosely planning to have the third plugfest focus on verification.\
Marty Reed: Great thank you.\
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): I carry is a question too.\
<phil_l_(p1)> But if you also issued another credential data model, that would be acceptable as an added value contribution then?\
Dmitri Zagidulin: Is go ahead.\
Kerri Lemoie: Yeah back to this had to do with Marty's a question about what we're going to use for the credential so we can use we have another one for plugfest to that we can use that is similar but I also think that it might be okay if people want to issue their own open badges 3.0 credentials and they don't have to necessarily use that one so stay tuned for that but I think that's where we could leaning.\
Kerri Lemoie: To actually just start implementing a Majesty Point O as part of Fun Fest too.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: Thanks Gary yeah so the the payload is going to be open badges 3.0 formatted.\
<marty_reed> very exciting Kerri!\
Dmitri Zagidulin: Going to provide an example credential that you can use to issue similar to previously it can be.\
<kerri_lemoie> :)\
Dmitri Zagidulin: A an achievement stating that the swallowed supports the credential from this issuer or something like that the exact payload.\
<kerri_lemoie> Open Badges 3.0 is due to be in candidate release right around November but we can use the spec for this plugfest.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: And format of the credential given that it is a open batch version 3 is going to be part of the discussion with your interoperability Partners so one of the key tasks for for us in organising this plugfest is to get a cohort of issuing platforms that that speak the routing protocols and pair them up with.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: All of them.\
<phil_l_(p1)> + 1 Kerri\
Dmitri Zagidulin: Actors who speak the same protocols and so there's going to be some negotiation of okay what given that we're supporting this protocol.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: What's the credential going to look like which did methods we're supporting which key types and so on.\
<kerri_lemoie> For Plugfest 1, we used a plugfest specific context file but we can use the actual OBv3 spec for this one.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: Any other any other questions before I move on.\
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): I'm not go ahead Dimitri the queue is empty.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: All right go ahead.\
Phil_L_(P1): Yes are you having to ask permission.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: One second one second we're getting a lot of.\
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): Hold on that was Phil Long I think feel I think you're Mike was at a filter on and so we couldn't really hear that you may want to check the mic or maybe drop the question in the chat thank you.\
Phil_L_(P1): Dropping jumping jack.\
Kerri Lemoie: +1 @Evan\
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): Unless you've asked your robot to sit in.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: Yeah it's that we're getting an echo in addition to the Distortion so it's almost impossible to here.\
<phil_l_(p1)> Q - Are you going going to ask the submitters to describe how they are choosing to render the credential data in their walltet?\
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): Yeah I mean while I get carried dropped the the current spec which is in candidate final four open badges 3 and it would be lovely to see some real or more real examples of ob3 designed an issue for this plugfest/\ so while will you know provide one definitely there is flexibility to you can use your own.\
<simone_ravaioli_(vc_edu)> important point !\
Kerri Lemoie: I only just want to make one slight clarification quick you said some money which is that it's not actually in candidate release yet it's under security review right now and it is scheduled to be in candidate released I think a right around the time of the demo day hopefully soon we can have some folks on from one Ed Tech or to talk about like me with the chairs think of the groups to talk about open badges 3.0 and review where it's airing out slightly different than what it what we use for flood Crest one because there are some.\
Kerri Lemoie: Changes made so that's why I put the link to this fact they're so you're still going to be ahead of the game but it shouldn't be changing.\
Kerri Lemoie: Match between us.\
Kerri Lemoie: November is very close to Candidate\ release.\
Phil_L_(P1): How to assist better.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: Yes that's that's better.\
Phil_L_(P1): All right so the question is are you going to be.\
Phil_L_(P1): Is there a common approach that's just a Muslim to make the energy in general.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: Great question so not for this plugfest we're likely that's going to be an important topic in a future plugfest but you're absolutely right being able for an issuer to recommend or even dictate How Could An shil is displayed is very useful and there's so for example one of the one of the papers in the upcoming rebooting web of trust by Madness Forney and several others.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: Going to be focusing on.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: Display portion the display suggestion in a verifiable credential for far Downstream walnuts but that is just a beginning conversation several standards body several sort of implement or groups have have done initial prototypes and have just started started talking about it but it has been standardized yet we're not really ready to test for interop in that regard so no that's that's not something that we're focusing on in this.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: This one.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: Much like in the previous.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: Although we are.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: Plugfest we are expecting.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: That the credential is displayed and that several of the key Fields same ones as from from previous one is displayed like the issuer the if there is a badge image we expect that to be available somehow and so on right so.\
<phil_l_(p1)> Not asking for interop in rendering at this stage - just how participants have chosen to address this for information gathering\
Dmitri Zagidulin: We're not yet as advanced as describing how it's going to be displayed but we do expect it to be displayed so I'll play that energy question.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: All right so.\
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): Dimitri go ahead great.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: So let's zoom in on what he means and getting a verifiable credential into a wallet.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: There's several steps some of which will be all of which are necessary but some some of them are standardized others are not so let's talk about which ones were focusing on in this plugfest so generally you want to notify the learner that they're eligible for a credential that Bart is not really standardized at the moment essentially we're expecting to you to send an email or text message or any of the other million ways of communicating over the internet.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: Wild selection is a problem.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: Now that these are knows they have to go pick up their diploma or that their course completion credential guiding them towards a figure out that they need a wallet to start with and then getting that wallet and then if they have multiple wallets which is what we're all hoping for in this ecosystem how to get them to select which while they're receiving it into is is one of the main challenges so we can talk about that in a bit.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: But so getting a credential into a Wallet requires wild selection then and this is where the protocols come in.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: You have to let the issuer connect with the wallet you have to either let the wallet know here's the issue over there let's go talk to them or vice versa you have to let the issuer know okay this is my wallets you to talk to each other.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: Step four is really important though it is there are use cases when issuing a verifiable credential big you don't need user authentication like when when you're getting better credentials think the classic example of movie ticket in like a paper ticket in previous pre-plague/\ movie theaters.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: The important.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: That you paid your handed a ticket.\
<manu_sporny> /me lols at "pre-plague movie theatres"\
Dmitri Zagidulin: Naming your identity you were not authenticated as part of getting that ticket right it's a bear credential and so however for this plugfest because it is an important use case that we want addressed and standardized in the community we are going to be requiring user authentication in a lot of platforms.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: That Authentication.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: Is in\ two parts.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: Usually the learner already has a record in the learner management system right there they're enrolled in the course they're enrolled in the University they have some sort of login.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: And so step a lot of issuing systems require that before we hand you over anything anything you at least gotta dedicate to our systems we got we have to know what your user ID is and then in addition there are five credential Community is offering or rather is requiring an additional step of okay yes now that the learner credentials system knows that.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: I'm Dimitri.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: One two three four five in their database.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: We're also requiring them we're also requiring issuers to allow Learners to bring their own identifier to bring their own did to say okay you know me as a user ID 1 2 3 4 5 but please issue this credential to the following decentralised identifier the ability to do that is key to the whole VC ecosystem in a ROM so.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: Although both.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: Integration and data authentication it.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: We optional and issuing protocols we are going to make it required.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: Or this plugfest because it is such an important use case in the education ecosystem.\
<phil_l_(p1)> That's a great requirement for the benefit of the community~\
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): Dimitri man who has a question in the chat man oh go ahead thank you.\
Manu Sporny: Sure thinks some money so.\
Manu Sporny: Speaking about it off I think one of the challenges over the next six or eight months is going to be that we are like actively standardizing crypto sweets and things related to that and so I think we're going to have to be I know that you said it's optional but one man you know some people are going to do it I think one of the one of the challenges we're going to have is is honing in on.\
Manu Sporny: Okay so like.\
Manu Sporny: In which crypto sweets because if we don't get that locked in early on then it's going to be hard for people to develop certain things I'll know that just this past weekend a very detailed kind of outline of how did authentication as a as a as it works in the VP request spec is done so there's a pull request there that kind of outline said but but even if we were to fall in it.\
Manu Sporny: It's a pretty simple protocol but.\
Manu Sporny: And if we were to.\
Manu Sporny: Follow that my suggestion is like let's just for this plugfest say it's going to be did key and then try to hone in on which crypto sweet we're going to use I think we need to actively discuss that as the Kennedy a sooner than later that's it.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: Thanks Mom that's a great point oh we definitely expect the discussion to happen on and we will have it both as part of these calls and on the mailing list you have to the right if we're going to demonstrate did off interop people at least need to know which did methods were supporting which key sweets so I end and did Keys a great candidate to do it because it's generally one that everybody.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: Supports although we would want to.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: If it turns out that we have a significant waci/\ did calm and Hyper Ledger Indy.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: Portion of the group.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: They may or may not be able to support did key write that they may have to require.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: Did in hydrology Indie compatible bids for that and we can address that as well.\
<manu_sporny> Yep, understood, if WACI/PeX, it'll have to be HL Indy DIDs.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: But you're absolutely right we will need to decide that and specify.\
<david_chadwick> did auth is not required in the OIDC4VCs protocol suite\
Dmitri Zagidulin: Ah so so going back to the verification workflow we've notified learner listening to be get a credential we've guided them to select a wallet.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: Establish the connection we perform the user authentication there.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: The protocols typically supports a one or more rounds of prerequisite negotiation.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: And we're not going to focus on that part as part of this plugfest that that's going to be an advanced topic for later and then actually transferring the information the actual raw data of the credential into the wallet.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: About that in a bit.\
<manu_sporny> @DavidC if DID Auth is not required for OIDC4VCs, then you will not be able to assert ownership over the credential using DIDs.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: For for this plugfest were essentially going to be focusing on steps three and four.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: And obviously six where we need to end up with the the credential actually transferred so what are some ways of getting credentials into wallets well we've got a bunch of manual methods sort of low-tech in quotes that are more useful to developers than end users really so.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: If we treat a credential like a file.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: Which is kind of what I was not checking before.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: How to get files into applications.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: We can get into all right so what are the best manual methods typically scanning a QR code inviting the user to scan a QR code which notice means that requires at least two different devices one with the screen and then a mobile one that you're just counting with and the QR code can contain a just a regular web URL to a static credential hosted somewhere or in some cases if the credentials small enough it can be embedded.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: Weekend after use a toothpaste The Rocker Dental Source Code or we can say Okay opening from your file system from from your desktop or from your phone's files.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: Easy's manual methods is typically how well an implementer start out with the easy to implement they don't address the problem of wallet selection They Don't Really support user authentication as part of the protocol now some of them.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: Handle user authentication out.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: Meaning it's only after you log into your canvas instance or your other learning learning management system instance some user is authenticated and then you guide them to the page to pick up the credential you don't require any other authentication beyond that you only give them the link to pick up the credential once they're authenticated and there's there's pros and cons to that then we can talk about if people interested but it should lie no notion of in protocol prerequisite negotiation and.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: The important part is though these methods are pretty simple.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: Code clicking on a link pasting something you do a text box or presenting a file dialog they're not standardized the moment between community so widely used not standardized.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: In addition to the manual methods.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: There's a number of emerging issue protocols specifically dealing with the interaction between issuers and wallets.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: They also allow for some sort of Defense Education.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: I initially when preparing a presentation it used to be that not all of the protocols allowed for multiple rounds of prerequisite negotiation there is a certain number of their certain amount of coevolution and the the emerging Protocols are learning from each other so at the moment all three of the main program families have now support/\.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: Multiple rounds of negotiations.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: So before we get into the actual individual protocols is any question on this part.\
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): No question Dimitri Zafar so you can proceed.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: All right so what are we seeing in the market as of today we're seeing three major political families or protocol camps emerging and then a bunch of other proprietary to a particular issuer or two particular ecosystem so non-standardized ones so the ones will be looking at the ones we're asking you as issuer providers or wallet providers.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: Of these three so.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: These branches community group of which this VC Andrews is a task force has its own specification called VC API encourage everybody to look through it.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: And although VC API does not include require.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: Happy or credential Handler API the two are often used in conjunction just because while these Capi mostly focuses on server to server interaction.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: Pancham the API also allows support to get credentials.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: From just the browser right so like if a user is logging into a public terminal at their Library they don't have a secondary mobile device or Hardware walls or anything like that they're still able to receive credentials.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: Turns out that potential handle API help is very useful in the problem of wallet selection on the mobile side but anyway so the first protocol is VC API which.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: Air fire and points some wallet and points and most importantly for this block vest issuer endpoints both a low-level internal and point that we expect is going to be used by the issuer app itself but also much more importantly the external facing exchange and point that allows a particular wallet to talk to an issue and receive the credential right so.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: This is an HTTP based API.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: Incubated here in this community so definitely one should take a look at the next one you should take a look at and familiarize yourself is open ad foundations the same standards body behind open as you connect a number of related protocols.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: Has been.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: On its back that is literally called opening D4 verifiable credential issuance so it uses the general concepts and reuse a some of the syntax although it adds a lot of new syntax obviously from the opening D connect Authentication Protocol and it uses some of the concepts for receiving.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: I couldn't just.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: In a certain way the authentication process is a narrow.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: Let's generalized version of receiving a credential it's just that the credential you're asking for is the user's username but still a lot of the a lot of pieces are the same and then lastly Essentials identity Foundation.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: Wacky did Cam interrupt profile and waci\ I believe stands for wallets while it credential issuance something like that.\
Kaliya Young: Wallet and credential wallet and credential interaction.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: Juan Crenshaw interaction thank you so much Kelly am.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: It is combination of several protocols and data models that again allows Wallace to request credentials from issuers then there's a number of.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: Non-standardized or are one-off protocols that.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: We leave as user homework but your task for plucked Us number number two is out of those 3 VC API open IG for issuing verifiable credentials or waci DIDcomm/\.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: Pick one at least one of those protocols and then within that protocol family we're going to ask you that if you're an issue provider good at demonstrating around with at least two other wallets that are not developed by U and similarly if your wallet provider we're gonna ask you to receive credentials from at least two other issuers.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: At the moment we are we would like defecation to be required now.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: If that's not possible and you still want to participate then speak up on the mailing list or contact the jff team which talked about it but assume that identification is required I think that's the sound of a question.\
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): There's a question from David David please go ahead thank you.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: Honor yet the latter IE turns out that all three of the protocol families essentially provide a mechanism for demonstrating proof possession of the DID/\ so yeah so.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: So whichever.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: Whichever probably you go you end up going with use that protocols method of did of integration.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: Whoa yeah that's good to know and I'm hoping the ccg leadership.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: That's really bizarre.\
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): Okay we can we can try to look back into that David also the browser issue I would like to ask Evan to ask the question.\
Evan_Lally_(Digital_Bazaar): Thanks for joining thanks Dimitri just wanted to bring up that we at digital bizarre are putting some tooling together to help explain chappie about IO and also help make it easier for the community to integrate and meet the goals of plugfest to using chappie protocol so Dimitri has a link there chappie down IO will be adding to that tool over the next few weeks and if there are any questions feel free to post them in the GitHub repo or just email either myself or manu about that but are.\
Evan_Lally_(Digital_Bazaar): List to provide tools for this community to use to make it easy for you to.\
Evan_Lally_(Digital_Bazaar): Experiment with CHAPI/\.\
Kerri Lemoie: +1 @Evan!\
Dmitri Zagidulin: Thank you so much having.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: Right yep so I've got to.\
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): Dimitri just a time check we're entering starts and last five minutes of the hour.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: Two sides left just want a couple of points I want to touch on and then we'll take some more questions all right so which one should you pick for the plugfest partly depends on what what general area you're focusing on whether you're a sort of middleware provider for focusing on machine-to-machine server to server interaction whether you need to be supporting mobile apps whether you have the requirement which is important accessibility requirement of being sport web wallets.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: The thing I want.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: Point out is that although obviously it's it's an important engineering investment in a way the protocols all do essentially the same things so most of the challenges of existing credential issuers is going to be starting to learn some of verifiable credential lingo starting to be familiarized with the protocols coding up the different steps while selection that are notification do negotiation all that stuff.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: But once you.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: At the effort of supporting another one of the protocols in that main family of three becomes easier so have you heard of developments we're certainly as the organizers are not going to recommend just one protocol so have you teams look through the specs go through the very detailed and very helpful ccg digital wallet protocol analysis that.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: Analyze some of the features.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: And in general.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: Wall provider start looking and we're going to provide a list as well start thinking about which issues you're gonna demonstrate interoperability with.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: You already have strategic Partners they probably already have invested in a protocol and so you're probably going to support whatever they do and vice versa.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: What if similarities there's actually a lot of similarities in all of the protocols all three of them support kicking off the transfer credential either initiated by the user by the wallet or initiated by the issuer.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: Education is generally out-of-band while its selection is one of the main challenges in picking a protocol so it is a one of the reasons to look at especially if you're supporting mobile or browser workflows one of the reasons of looking at chat the I/O as I mentioned obviously the all of the protocols have some sort of way some query data model.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: The wallet can describe.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: Essential it wants to receive.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: All three of them support did a syndication and all three of them obviously get the credential added wallet what are the differences.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: As the three Protocols are evolving and co-evolved incur there's becoming less and less differences between them so a lot of it has to do with if you already part of an ecosystem or whatever your strategic partners are there still some difference between whether the protocol can support.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: Hi the cross-device flow like before we mentioned scanning credential on the screen which requires two devices or.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: Supporting the I only have mobile device I want to be able to receive the the credential right on that device so go from notification go from an email client or a browser into the wallet.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: They're not the protocol support web browsers or server to server or peer-to-peer only.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: So we are almost at the top of the hour there's room for a couple of quick questions and obviously if you have more questions will follow up on the mailing list so.\
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): I think there is room for man whose last question go ahead Manu.\
Manu Sporny: Just a quick note there are more differences than this there has been an enormous amount of discussion kind of behind the scenes in various customer engagements and we're trying to build bring some of that discussion out into the light into the public so it can be discussed more openly we are struggling with the timeline for that but hope to do that sometime in the next couple of weeks.\
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): And Kelly also is on the Queue please please can you go.\
Kaliya Young: Yeah I think this is really excellent work I co-chair the different or operability group that it has quite frankly has somewhat struggled to figure out what we do and what we do next but I think this is a really excellent interop effort and I was actually going to ask if someone would be willing to come and share this work and invite people interested in interop who are hanging out in the interoperability.\
Kaliya Young: We're waiting for that.\
<sharon_leu> Re-posting links, FAQs, and registration link:\
Kaliya Young: The next you know if they're interested for the next few months I think it's excellent work.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: Thanks Kylie and I highly recommend everyone to check out the diff interoperability group and get involved.\
<kerri_lemoie> Will drop you a line @Kaliya\
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): Yeah lovely thank Kaliya/\ for sure this is perfect timing and you know we this is an opportunity to create interop across the different working groups to so we'll follow up exactly.\
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): So thank you very much Dimitri and Sharon for sharing more about the plug Fest we are top of the hour but for sure probably not address all the questions so anything outstanding we recommend you can drop in the document that would link earlier or just share it in the mailing list that is the main communication tool that we have and the one that we are going to Leverage.\
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): We'll make sure to.\
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): Is again in a follow-up email particularly the new web page with all the info on the plugfest number two and as always we'll share an agenda for this weekly calls toward the end of the week we have a few lined up for the next few weeks certainly plugfest is top of mind for everyone and thanks thanks to all of you for participating and supporting this work.\
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): I think it takes.\
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): To get it over the line so lovely to see the community coming together for this interrupt effort.\
<sharon_leu> Thanks everyone!\
<kerri_lemoie> Thank you!\
<tayken_(lef)> Thanks all, exciting work and progress!\
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): Okay so thanks a lot everyone I'm going to stop the recording and we'll see you next week.\
<enrico> Bye\
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): Recording has stopped.\
<phil_l_(p1)> Thanks!\