The W3C Credentials Community Group

Meeting Transcriptions and Audio Recordings (2014-today)

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Transcript for 2022-09-26

<simone_ravaioli_(vc_edu)> Hello everyone - will get started in a minute\
Our Robot Overlords are scribing.
<kerri_lemoie> Hello all\
Our Robot Overlords are scribing.
Kerri Lemoie: A little tweak thank you.\

Topic: IP Note\

<simone_ravaioli_(vc_edu)> Anyone can participate in these calls. However, all substantive contributors to any CCG Work Items must be members of the CCG with full IPR agreements signed.\

Topic: Call Notes \

<simone_ravaioli_(vc_edu)> a. These minutes and an audio recording of everything said on this call are archived at\
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<simone_ravaioli_(vc_edu)> In chat/IRC type \'93q+\'94 to add yourself to the queue, with an optional reminder, e.g., \'93q+ to mention something\'94. The \'93to\'94 is required. More IRC commands here:\
<simone_ravaioli_(vc_edu)> If you\'92re not on chat/IRC, simply ask to be put on the queue. Please be brief so the rest of the queue get a chance to chime in. You can always q+ again.\

Topic: EBSI Issuer Trust Model\

Joao_Rodrigues_Frade: Thank you so we have a third member of the team and that is Alan go ahead on a brief introduction I will try to share my presentation here while you are introducing yourself go ahead.\
Alen Horvat: I'm Helen I mean some of you know me from the forking group but lead architect a TBS I and I will present some of the technical details of are you sure trust model and show you some examples.\
Joao_Rodrigues_Frade: Okey-dokey so without further delay I cannot really share a window for some reason I really cannot understand guys so I will share my screen and I'll maybe like this it will work because we typically use teams and I don't know exactly what system is this what do you see my screen.\
Joao_Rodrigues_Frade: Yes it's not in presentation mode right I got it.\
Joao_Rodrigues_Frade: I will go knowing presentation mode and I will wind down here the presentation quickly so to give you a bit of context and the three of us will come from the director general for informatics in the European commission so we are actually doing the work of implementing the first pan-european blockchain in Europe which will be driven by the member states so even.\
Joao_Rodrigues_Frade: though the technology that is.\
<razvan_b._(lightpass)> Unfortunately I can\'92t hear anyone. Is it me or does anyone else experience this issue?\
Joao_Rodrigues_Frade: Is quite known to all of you it's Italy a oh the the governance structure is based on the member states maybe Maxine do you want to explain a bit about the EPP.\
European_Commission_-_EBSI_-_Maxine_Lemm: Of course so can I get this working again am I here I am here fantastic okay so you do European commission is a complex animal is the European Union and a BSI is no exception it is a collaborative project so it is a project that is owned by European commission specifically by DG connect those responsible for digital policy but it is co steered by an alliance.\
European_Commission_-_EBSI_-_Maxine_Lemm: is of European member countries so.\
European_Commission_-_EBSI_-_Maxine_Lemm: The 27 European Union member states plus Norway Liechtenstein and Ukraine as Observer who form what is called European blockchain partnership and the European blockchain partnership and the European commission are responsible for the Strategic Direction and steering of the European blockchain Services infrastructure and part of that is the definition of all of the business capabilities that we want to build using blockchain in order to fulfill Public Services.\
European_Commission_-_EBSI_-_Maxine_Lemm: one of those use cases is verifiable.\
European_Commission_-_EBSI_-_Maxine_Lemm: Charles as applied to education and lifelong learning which is the primary focus of what we're going to talk about today because that is the one for which we have developed a quite sophisticated issuers trust model last thing that is worth mentioning is that not only is the steering of the strategy of EBS I decentralized but also the actual node Network that forms the you know the.\
European_Commission_-_EBSI_-_Maxine_Lemm: Lowell Ledger.\
European_Commission_-_EBSI_-_Maxine_Lemm: Is decentralized as well so there are nodes hosted in all of those 29 countries subset of them but across all of Europe and that's basically host The Ledger and expose the apis are necessary in order to enable actors to record things on Ledger or read from the ledger so there we go.\
Joao_Rodrigues_Frade: In a nutshell we are working with all member states the Block Chain itself will go live we hope still this year has been a project long long project we have been confronted with a lot of legal uncertainty and building a blockchain from scratch is not for everyone but we are getting there and so we hope to have a PSI.\
Joao_Rodrigues_Frade: the European blockchains.\
Joao_Rodrigues_Frade: Fully online and fully available to everyone to the public services that want to build on top of the the blockchain by the end of the year for the moment we are in pre-production so as I explained by Maxine we have a number of services that are currently in the process of being built and we are focusing mostly on the idea of verification with.\
Joao_Rodrigues_Frade: verifiable credentials.\
Joao_Rodrigues_Frade: Um we have not only the diploma use case but we also have social security and the identity use case the identity use case is a bit Frozen for the moment but we are mostly focusing on the mobility of workers with Social Security and the mobility of students with diploma so in a nutshell we are working on blockchain we are working on verifiable credentials.\
Joao_Rodrigues_Frade: not only for.\
Joao_Rodrigues_Frade: But in general and we are also of course using digital wallets to start this verifiable credentials the wallets they are not built by BSI the wallets they come directly from different providers in the market I don't know Maxine if you want to say something about the engagement wallets are we leave it for later.\
European_Commission_-_EBSI_-_Maxine_Lemm: Hurricane I can compliment so our approach has been not to undercut the market the rather to allow it to flourish and provide the services that are needed for holders for issuers for verifiers to interact with CBS eye and in order to ensure that they are able to connect our apis and perform the services that are needed we've developed conformance testing conformist it's a service that we run from.\
European_Commission_-_EBSI_-_Maxine_Lemm: the European commission that allows any.\
European_Commission_-_EBSI_-_Maxine_Lemm: Provider to test whether their wallet is actually compatible with our specifications for verifiable credentials and at the moment our conformance testing has 15 conformant wallets confirmed we launched it in the first quarter of this year and we are constantly trying to unload obviously Recruit new can for my wallets it is very much a work in progress we are still updating our specifications as we go so we expect that there will be additional features that.\
European_Commission_-_EBSI_-_Maxine_Lemm: we be tested for conformance in the future.\
Joao_Rodrigues_Frade: Exactly and the verifiable credentials profile that we are working on we call it gbesi verifiable credentials profile based or completely compatible or I'd say it's just a profile of the w3c one so there is nothing special there of course we have to create a profile because there's no other way of using it and we will explain in more detail how we are currently trying to.\
Joao_Rodrigues_Frade: to apply these three Technologies.\
Joao_Rodrigues_Frade: To the mobility of students in Europe and the context again is this large.\
<simone_ravaioli_(vc_edu)> Thx Alen for the links... keep it coming :slightly_smiling_face:\
Joao_Rodrigues_Frade: That you call European blockchain Services infrastructure so keep this in mind when we move forward so this is what this slide tries to explain we have not really a mandate as European commission to transition to verifiable credentials and this is a more like Innovation track that is running in parallel to what the Asian para and AJ Iraq which are.\
Joao_Rodrigues_Frade: policy teaches of the commission.\
Joao_Rodrigues_Frade: Already doing we are complimenting that with an Innovative way to enable verification of diplomas which can then be taken up or not but hopefully yes by the policy DG's so in the European commission again you have different policy DG's we come from digit the informatics TG we are really doing the work here of putting these two to action and and making.\
Joao_Rodrigues_Frade: network with the member states we.\
<simone_ravaioli_(vc_edu)> DG = Directorate General\
Joao_Rodrigues_Frade: Supported financially by the program of the G connect and by the G connect itself that is more the brother DG in terms of digital policy but then when it comes to education there are two other DG's that are specifically working in this field and they look at us as a Innovation track so there is no commitment from the European commission to transition.\
Joao_Rodrigues_Frade: Diploma verification to w3c verifiable credentials so don't get that idea after this presentation that the European commission has committed itself together with the member states to move fully to w3c verifiable credentials because that's not the case what we are doing is to work with this group of member states the Epp and the other DG's in innovating and using these Technologies for verification purposes and specifically.\
Joao_Rodrigues_Frade: for the cross-border verification of.\
Joao_Rodrigues_Frade: In Europe did I forget something yes.\
Joao_Rodrigues_Frade: No they're not I'm sorry I don't know exactly it's a bit frightening because I don't know even if my camera is working a you see my slide with ever there no you see a slight with now you see it it wasn't that fun.\
European_Commission_-_EBSI_-_Maxine_Lemm: But we're not in presentation mode trawl.\
Joao_Rodrigues_Frade: I cannot see if you see him let me see my screen so I'm going to assign presentation mode because I see it in presentation no okay so okay doesn't matter I think as long as you have a because what I can do and I'm sorry because we should have tested this software I have no clue what you guys are actually seeing what I will do is to present my screen not the and maybe this will help and then I okay so my camera is working.\
Joao_Rodrigues_Frade: if we.\
Joao_Rodrigues_Frade: We are experimenting as we move along okay this works so I will try again to share content and I will share my screen boom okay and then okay and now this is going to be in presentation mode I guess is it.\
Joao_Rodrigues_Frade: Okay so this is what I was trying to explain is that we have carried out a number of Pilots with the member states to do cross their verification of diplomas using w3c verifiable credentials but again this is an innovation track of the European commission this is not a commitment from the policy side that we are moving towards verifiable credentials even in the near future.\
Joao_Rodrigues_Frade: but nothing.\
<sharon_leu> Question - you mentioned that the EC is not currently moving towards W3C VCs - can you say more about why that is or what are you currently discussing instead?\
Joao_Rodrigues_Frade: Us to promote this track alongside the work that is already happening being by the Jack because we're in contact with them in the Erasmus without paper project or there's a bra with the Rope has platform and we reuse the model of Arrow past when we created a verifiable credential so this is done in collaboration with the policy DTS but it's not.\
Joao_Rodrigues_Frade: commitment from the policy side.\
Joao_Rodrigues_Frade: We're actually adopt what we are doing at large even though we are already working there with them to make this happen yep.\
Joao_Rodrigues_Frade: So in the in the commission there are policy DG's that are responsible for specific policies and the d g that is actually responsible for education is called the ja takk and of course they have a certain mandate within the education domain as you know the European commission cannot set you know and they know better than I do so I will just probably explain.\
Joao_Rodrigues_Frade: that of course the.\
<simone_ravaioli_(vc_edu)> DG EAC - Education department of the European Commission\
<jeff_o_-_humanos> Is Slide deck available and/or can key prior skipped slides be flashed through before end of presentation?\
Joao_Rodrigues_Frade: Remember that for example everyone in Europe has to express a diploma in the Rope as format or in a verifiable credential format most of the initiatives that are happening are funding initiative so there is Grants and money given or within specific domains where the European commission actually has a driver row we are collaborating with both Mark and with.\
Joao_Rodrigues_Frade: imply that are the.\
Joao_Rodrigues_Frade: That are currently working on credentials for education and we are let's say.\
Joao_Rodrigues_Frade: Influencing that process where for example the aeroplus platform soon we'll be able to express credentials indication credentials in w3c verifiable credentials format which currently is not the case they are having a pure XML format and they will be moving with the same data model of the diploma to a w3c version of credentials for me.\
Joao_Rodrigues_Frade: now when we do this.\
Joao_Rodrigues_Frade: Alongside with them and in collaboration but that doesn't mean that we are in control of their apis platform that is the GM plant so they might provide that additional feature and those that are interested to go there and create as they call a count and you know participate in their password platform they will be able to choose very valid credentials as a format but what would be wrong for us is to come here and give you the impression.\
Joao_Rodrigues_Frade: now that there is a sort of mandate on the member state.\
Joao_Rodrigues_Frade: They are now sort of applies to use the Bluetooth receiver for a credentials that would be because that's not the case what we are saying is that we are working with initiatives of the European commission such as europa's and Erasmus of that paper that our initiatives with the specific mandate to support them in the development of these initiatives with an innovation track that we started in Pilot mode.\
Joao_Rodrigues_Frade: load under the European blockchain sir.\
<sharon_leu> Got it, thanks!\
Joao_Rodrigues_Frade: Sir initiative which is funded by the digital Europe program does this make sense so you have to distinguish funding initiatives more like Innovation that the commission promotes together with the member states from one standing you know policy initiatives which have let's say their own governance and are slower to adopt new technologies just because of course they have a different governance process.\
Joao_Rodrigues_Frade: was I.\
Joao_Rodrigues_Frade: Clear about this.\
Kerri Lemoie: +1 -- Thanks for explaining that Joao\
Joao_Rodrigues_Frade: Okay what is important for you to understand this we as European commission are working with the member states in the structure called the European blockchain partnership in promoting this Innovation track which is really to use w3c verifiable credentials in the cross-border verification of diplomas so this was done this was let's say there were grants given and provided two universities interested in doing that.\
Joao_Rodrigues_Frade: So we have done that and this is what.\
Joao_Rodrigues_Frade: We are showing to you.\
Joao_Rodrigues_Frade: And we are currently working with the policy DG's so that the results of this pilot is now adopted by them in their own policy initiatives which again are not as mandatory because of the field of Education in the field of education has a certain let's say limit by the European commission we cannot like you know that subsidiarity the member states know better how to run it but there.\
Joao_Rodrigues_Frade: are quite something.\
Joao_Rodrigues_Frade: Two teams that are currently working with us to eventually adopt the results of our Pilots so what we have done is the typical model of the literacy which is now shown on the screen where we have a holder meaning a student that goes to a university asks for the issuance of a diploma.\
Joao_Rodrigues_Frade: Receives it on its digital wallet and presents it to a verifier and we have tried to have the verifier in some other member state so that's the typical use case now what we came here to present in water because we could present of course therapist data model the claims were expressed as a repast is the in the verification step we have created new also an Innovative model.\
Joao_Rodrigues_Frade: jul 28.\
Joao_Rodrigues_Frade: That the verifier can trust the issuer what we call an issuer trust model and that has been done using blockchain so that's where let's say blockchain comes into play not really too let's say store the diploma that's not the case at all the diploma is only stored on the digital wallet.\
Joao_Rodrigues_Frade: Information about the deed of the holder because we also use the word recede it's both for issuers and holders but not for verifiers because they don't get an additive only issuers and holders even the deed of the older will be only starred on the wallet so the sort of the document of the holder is only on the wallet but on the other hand on the blockchain we have all the information about the issues and why did we decide to do this on the blog.\
Joao_Rodrigues_Frade: lock chain to decentralize the information.\
Joao_Rodrigues_Frade: Central point where we would start all public keys and the information of whether or not the issuer is accredited to issue this type of diploma we have done it on the blockchain because we believe that the blockchain has certain advantages to hold the information of issuers and of course because we don't want to put the verifier in contact with the issuer so it's also a way to not.\
Joao_Rodrigues_Frade: call home.\
Joao_Rodrigues_Frade: Half the very fires calling issuers the very fires can simply go on the blockchain we provide a number of services that can be consumed by any verifier app in read mode and read the information necessary to retrieve the document of the issuer to retrieve what we call the accreditation of the issuer that enables the issuer to be trusted to issue that of.\
Joao_Rodrigues_Frade: And we also have the typical revocation list that is stored on chain so this is where we have used blockchain and this so-called trust model for issuers based on blockchain is what is the subject of the talk of today so I get here it's where Ellen is now going more into detail and Alan is our lead architect.\
Joao_Rodrigues_Frade: Three how would say that the the person that can know whether or not that's a technical level this is the wisest decision that we have made and is here to give you a bit of his wisdom Alan are you there.\
Alen Horvat: Yeah that we share my screen and I can take it from here.\
<simone_ravaioli_(vc_edu)> EBSI uses Blockchain only for governance (Trusted registries), not for verifying individual credentials (anchoring credentials to a blockhain)\
Alen Horvat: Okay there's my screen yes you do okay so first before I go to slides here just a few pages where you can find all the relevant information so this will all shared in the chat so everything about EBS I everything about what it conformance testing and here in what is AB c-- you will find different factors that cover everything from verify our.\
Alen Horvat: The idea is as we use them in a BSI digital identity trust issue model and exchange of are valid credentials and some chapters that will be published soon okay now let's go I so sorry I need to share it again because.\
Alen Horvat: Let's go to a presentation.\
Alen Horvat: For some reason I cannot see this one instance.\
<kerri_lemoie> How do the issuers get registered in the blockchain?\
<kerri_lemoie> What are the qualifications?\
Kerri Lemoie: :+1:\
Joao_Rodrigues_Frade: That's exactly what we want to show you and we have created as you know a way to reflect the chain of trust of issuers and everything is online but so the idea is that an issuer of a diploma.\
Joao_Rodrigues_Frade: is a.\
Joao_Rodrigues_Frade: It's by an institution such as in Europe Ministry of Education to do so now that Ministry of Education might be at National level might be at Regional level and therefore the there is not like just one actor in this accreditation process there might be several actors and we need to have a chain of trust that works on change so that you have the information that you require to trace back the.\
Joao_Rodrigues_Frade: the Trust on.\
Joao_Rodrigues_Frade: Be sure to the highest level of authority in the member state or even at European level that shows and demonstrates that the issuer can be trusted for that specific type of of Education credential.\
Joao_Rodrigues_Frade: And that has been really the they know Innovative part because all the other options that we saw they were quite simple so they just said either you trust an intermediary platform that is known for containing information about trusted institutions so you trust that platform or you trust the certificate that is qualified and therefore.\
Joao_Rodrigues_Frade: Trust the issuer of the certificate of the Kali fighter and therefore you trust the entity and according to us that those two Alternatives they have quite some embedded mutations that we try to overcome by using verifiable credentials to express the trust of chain of Institutions and we will show you now.\
Alen Horvat: Okay so here is a very brief overview of what will be presented in this chapter so we will just go quickly through different trust models that are used today and how he dies I can help to map the trust relationship into the digital forms of that verifiable credentials are easily verifiable then we will explain some of the details of EVS is issuer trust model and what are they.\
Alen Horvat: Benefits and in the end.\
Alen Horvat: Examples that that early adopters produced in honor or programs where different universities showcased cross-border diploma exchange of student development.\
Alen Horvat: Okay so in the classic classical trust model of issuers the information about the holder is usually exchange with direct between the issuer and the verifier and then verifier usually calls and checks with the issue directly whether or not that credential is still valid it was really issued by that issue or so and this this is called phoning home of course phoning home causes several.\
Alen Horvat: Issues because it allows.\
Alen Horvat: And that's one of the reasons why we'd like to avoid such a model so the three main challenges are the technical burden because it's places like they're just a technical requirements audition always needs to be online and always available so that verifiers can check the status of any time there's some operational burden which requires.\
Alen Horvat: With verifiers to create.\
Alen Horvat: Interaction with all the issuer's they want to physically check the very first default credentials from so the number of required interaction increases with the number of issuers verify respond to interact and there's of course a privacy challenge because is sure issues with always learn it which where fires a holders interactive so this is.\
Alen Horvat: So these are the main three challenges that we want to solve.\
Alen Horvat: Of course with the w3c and SSI in new information exchange model was introduced or issuers have their own decentralized identifier the issue credentials to holders and holders presents the credentials to the verifier and now gbesi as a fully decentralized framework or service enables to make the verification of your fabric credential easy and reliable.\
Alen Horvat: Without needing to contact.\
Alen Horvat: It wrecked me.\
Joao_Rodrigues_Frade: Or to or to have a centralized model.\
Alen Horvat: Yeah Crim so so he BSI is is just like an infrastructure that holds all the information so if it's not an entity that controls and overseas so all the information The Ledger as well as is controlled by the trust of the creation organizations and trust and ensures themselves for each domain or so okay.\
Alen Horvat: Here we are.\
Alen Horvat: The three conceptual trust models and the first 2 or use or your frequent free used frequently today first is the centralized trust model where we have a one entity which manages all certificates and the keys.\
Alen Horvat: Have the Federated stress model where these operations can be delegated to different like intermediary certificate authorities and one example is Europeans list of trusted list of qualified trust service providers where National bodies maintain the list for their own country and there's a distributed trust model gbesi.\
Alen Horvat: Which is completely open.\
Alen Horvat: In a sense that there's no Central entity that controls the rudder let's say roots of trust or trust chains or do or the relationships but it allows mapping all the information into digital form so that therefore credentials are easily verifiable and this service is sin since is fully distributed replicated it's always available and also praised the link between the.\
Alen Horvat: The farmer and the issue.\
Alen Horvat: No sir takes off some operational work guns from from both entities because now verifiers can easily check accreditations on of any issue within the within the ecosystem and they don't need to create special connections with all the different issuers in the field.\
Alen Horvat: I don't know what how he be a science trust model compares to other stress model so the most widely used is the central or decentralized and Federated trust models which rely on a certificate authorities and x.509 certificates this structure is not as flexible and it's usually applied only for identity credentials we know that x.509 are.\
Alen Horvat: Usually public Keys bound together.\
Alen Horvat: True person identity and those organ is should and in that ecosystem we have several roles certificate Authority registration Authority validation Authority distribution Authority and the whole structure is not very very like agile or it cannot adapt very easily to different scenarios or use cases.\
Alen Horvat: Whereas in.\
Alen Horvat: PSI based on the business requirements we got from.\
Alen Horvat: From different use cases and all the stakeholders involved evolved we came to a trust We Trust model we're only two rules or required these are trusted accreditation organizations or ta 0 which basically identifies verifies accredits the so-called trusted issuers who issue electronic documents or verifiable credentials trusted.\
Alen Horvat: Issuers are.\
Alen Horvat: Edited by Toews can then issue certain types of verifiable credentials and sign them either while their existing certificates or delete keys that are used for for first time.\
Alen Horvat: Okay now let's take a look at CBS eyes trust model and how it works.\
Alen Horvat: Here we present the relationship and onboarding of so-called ta yo and trusted issuers and basically in order for to let like create a new chain of trust for given domain we need to identify or domain needs to identify organizations which can issue some information about the accreditations for trusted issuers.\
Alen Horvat: This created this Theo's register schemas in the BBS ice trusted schemas registry schema is Json schema which defines the data model of the very fabric credentials that that is going to be issued by trusted issues within the domain and for example TOS can be Ministries so one example would be like Ministry of Education within a country which is then responsible for creating.\
Alen Horvat: With all the universities or set of.\
Alen Horvat: See in that country trusted issuers once once the root of trust is set can then request from ta 0 and accreditation it's a it's a it's the standard fare follow credential exchange so trusted Tau identifies a trusted issue or issues that are verifiable accreditations and then trustworthy first register drawer.\
Alen Horvat: They're accreditations and Associates.\
Alen Horvat: CBS eye so here we see that there is no entity within EBS I which would register information on behalf of others but everything is managed by the actors within the domain and then it B SI acts as a public Ledger of issuers so it contains information about trust degradation organizations their dids their did keys and so about the trust of issuers.\
Alen Horvat: And schema.\
Alen Horvat: Which are you should buy the issues within the given domain.\
Joao_Rodrigues_Frade: Before we go into more detail given that this is actually the conceptual model and everything Builds on that maybe we can ask if there are any questions at this point the the previous slide.\
<keith_kowal> What framework is used for revocation?\
Joao_Rodrigues_Frade: Because this is the essential conceptual model or it's is this let's say make sense to the people working in this group have you seen something similar.\
Joao_Rodrigues_Frade: Does this seem to make sense.\
Joao_Rodrigues_Frade: There is one Krishna.\
Joao_Rodrigues_Frade: Is one raised hand.\
Joao_Rodrigues_Frade: We are not put indeed you can use specific thrust list so I guess they're not using the trustees of Trustees from let's say Idols they are creating a sector specific thrust is most likely right.\
Joao_Rodrigues_Frade: Very very interesting I mean I don't know Alan do you know about this specific variant to The Trusted list model.\
<kerri_lemoie> It's interesting that the TAOs determine the schemas of the VCs.\
Alen Horvat: Yeah I know about the project and the model there is its to mind understanding its DNA it's also dns-based but what's that's correct yeah yeah so so it has so it has some nice properties and it's applicable to certain use cases but to add to that the what we're presenting here is like like a very Broad.\
Alen Horvat: Model and it also.\
Alen Horvat: When it comes to a particular domain within that given domain it's up to the up to the use case basically this app so we Define or like EVS I only defines an envelope of what we call a verifiable accreditation and so very basic I can try to share the link to the to the data models and schemas is a very basic data model and that's can be is usual that extended by domain specific properties which can reach.\
Alen Horvat: Can be basically.\
Alen Horvat: As long as it's like verifiable in a in a simple way so it can express any relationship or limitations for the europass I think they call it a creation records They mapped the accreditation records data modem to verify credentials for and that is basically if you check the schema you see that it takes the basic or like the core there for accreditation scheme has and then schema and then.\
Alen Horvat: So subject properties within the very fun potentials with the domain specific planes so that it can really control to to the level to like really introduced a fine-grained control of which university can issue exactly which diploma recognized within the field so.\
Joao_Rodrigues_Frade: Okay maybe Island there may be moved on to the next slide and we can quickly touch upon that because you already see you already see the other that we can build revocation on top of the Heap ESL Ledger as well so the idea is let's build the whole trust model around verifiable credentials let's create this accreditation data model that is going to be fairly flexible to accommodate.\
Joao_Rodrigues_Frade: the trust chain.\
Joao_Rodrigues_Frade: Of issuers essentially the Ministry of Education empowering Regional entity to then Empower issuers for you know specific education domains that's all verifiable credentials native so that is the idea and then the second idea is we can use a BSI to make available.\
Joao_Rodrigues_Frade: The documents of all this issuers the accreditation verifiable credentials of all of them as well and thirdly any revocation information that the verifier needs to make the decision of whether or not this diploma is authentic or valid so this idea of a passport so when they get the diploma they have access to all the information they are they.\
Joao_Rodrigues_Frade: need to make that.\
Joao_Rodrigues_Frade: Maybe Ellen going to go ahead and call compliment.\
Lucy Yang: Okay thank you I was just about to ask if I can I had a comment on the earlier and discussion on train a model II so I'm working on a project that actually used trying for a higher level trust under direct resource pretty much like AB c-- Ledger is a level lower which means like you and like the The Trusted I think the TA oh you mentioned here there are managing their own list but if there's any there any higher level Discovery especially globally.\
Lucy Yang: E for example if you're thinking about covid there different kind of trust.\
Lucy Yang: Who are having their own Bliss try but how how to actually bring them together so the train models very flexible in the sense that they can't deal with whatever AB c-- is doing but also higher level they leverage DNS as already mentioned and they can work with both x.509 and it so it's very very flexible so kind of look at you like you can list existing trust Registries on a higher level directory for kind of a global level Discovery so that's something.\
Lucy Yang: I'm working on like particularly for covid and house credentials.\
Lucy Yang: Earlier I was on a call where India presenting their trust Brothers recall Sunbird I think it's something like kind of at liko Louisville with ab c-- and and but if they're anything for example you're talking about education credentials why if Europe is using some kind of service for European educational credentials were India's using there are saying for educational credentials how you're going to do like globally when like in a student's where people move around borders to actually find out who was trusted in different regions so that's what I want.\
Lucy Yang: Comment down.\
Joao_Rodrigues_Frade: But you believe that the model that we are showing here and of course almost those are wrong but some of them are useful but the the model that we are showing here is compared to the one that you were just describing as some Advantage disadvantage what would be your.\
Lucy Yang: It's complimentary so that idea is that you you has your own regulations right and when you're issuing credential whether it's covid credentials were educational credentials and and won't have not every other country for Regions will be following your regulation so you need to allow them or I think you are allowing them to figure out their own thing but eventually if you know you has your own educational registry right where India has their own registry how.\
Lucy Yang: Different Registries are going to find each other and and Bill.\
Lucy Yang: Higher level it's complemented is not conflicting work or anything.\
Alen Horvat: Cam anything remember.\
Joao_Rodrigues_Frade: What what you say there is just very interesting because exactly this is what we discussed when we briefly prepare this call is maybe we can reinforce that idea we believe that sort of generic data model for accreditation because the one we came up with is you can call it European but actually is our project so it's not even European but so that would of course.\
Joao_Rodrigues_Frade: Help different regions to develop accreditation change based on a similar set of claims about the issuer's so we are Allen has shared now the data model that we believe.\
Joao_Rodrigues_Frade: Our needs but of course I think what would be interesting is that data model is actually.\
Joao_Rodrigues_Frade: Well I'm not saying really standardized to the level but like maybe made Global would really support High higher interoperability across Europe United States India and but currently there is no such model that's that's that's I think what we want to highlight is that we had to come up with ours in there will come up with others and once you need to let's say having.\
Joao_Rodrigues_Frade: interoperability you will have a.\
European_Commission_-_EBSI_-_Maxine_Lemm: Can I maybe jump in because I feel like the question that was just asked misrepresented slightly what we were trying to explain the European commission does not have a centralized verified database of universities I think very that's a good place to start and it's not a competency of the European Union to do so that is a National Competency and much the same way that India is in charge of its educational policy and this Ministry of Education or equivalent will be responsible for.\
European_Commission_-_EBSI_-_Maxine_Lemm: ting reliable education organizations it is the same.\
European_Commission_-_EBSI_-_Maxine_Lemm: Visual countries member states of the European Union so what the model that we've built like Alan and jo\'e3o just explained is not relying on a central source of Truth it is relying on a self Sovereign type of management of accreditations where as long as a country that is Sovereign identifies the appropriate entity for accrediting University bodies in this case then the whole trust thing can be self-managed as long as that.\
European_Commission_-_EBSI_-_Maxine_Lemm: one institution is identified within one country.\
European_Commission_-_EBSI_-_Maxine_Lemm: The root of trust then all of the subsequent accreditations say education recognizes two Regional bodies that manage University accreditations within a region you know subset of the University of that country all of this is self-managed I don't know if that helps.\
European_Commission_-_EBSI_-_Maxine_Lemm: Okay then I misunderstood you.\
Lucy Yang: Yeah that does my understanding I don't think I miss understand what your what is this.\
Joao_Rodrigues_Frade: So we all understand each other which is actually quite positive of course we we know that we are limited when it comes to to time and we want to just let's say pass the key messages and also to contextualize the work that we are doing because that's quite important when we leave so that there are no misunderstandings there as well of where this is going but maybe Alan you want to say something about this of the data.\
<simone_ravaioli_(vc_edu)> This is set of videos from the EBSI Early Adopters Demo Day which focused on the Edu use cases (Diploma, Transcript, Microcredentials)\
Joao_Rodrigues_Frade: How important we believe it is to actually look at this more attentively and eventually integrate this into let's say w3c or some entity that could make it really generalized and and not only lets say EPS I let the model.\
Alen Horvat: Yeah of course so maybe one thing to add here because I mean common of Lucifer is in place and it's very relevant but no technology will be able to solve the problem of who trust whom I mean we're farts will always need to decide like which issuers or roots of trust they they trust and that's completely independent of the technology of.\
Alen Horvat: It's important to maybe let me go to a 2-1 to 22 that the example from the education news case with it's not showing the right slide.\
Alen Horvat: But let's see.\
Joao_Rodrigues_Frade: It is it is it is.\
Alen Horvat: It is it is it's not okay so okay so what we need to understand here is that the the infrastructure and the trust model or completely open so EPS I can can basically host information of as many trust change or or hierarchies or whatever trust relationships as possible so it's not limited to any specific use case in a is not limited.\
Alen Horvat: It to any specific domain.\
<simone_ravaioli_(vc_edu)> this is the juicer part, we will let this run a few more minutes to capture the recording and share... in case people need to leave.\
Alen Horvat: And the beauty of the data model is that it's fairly simple everything is linked so whether it's hosted on E BSI or somewhere else I mean very far will always be able to find the PATH and who are created whom weather data creation is still valid or not to each schema it links who were credits who registered that schema and all the relevant information now of course storing this on eBay.\
Alen Horvat: Side has several advantages.\
Alen Horvat: The information that is stored there it's all verified beforehand so that information that goes on The Ledger complies with all the rules for accreditations so that's one and the second is basically you can have like it can accommodate everything from a simple like list where all issuers are on sale at the same level or an arbitrarily complex hierarchical.\
Alen Horvat: Structure and.\
Alen Horvat: Also be extended by domain specific rules for issuance for example that given University can only issue and diplomas in a specific region of the country or or similar so those are completely open I think that these are the points that I'd like to highlight here and here is a very simple example of a use case when we have like a Ministry and we see that depending on the.\
Alen Horvat: Accreditations in.\
Alen Horvat: S which is in this case for root of trust then accredits different bodies within that within their domain.\
Alen Horvat: So before we close.\
Joao_Rodrigues_Frade: So before we close the presentation I think we want to thank you again for of course the invitation and having us here today although work that we do is by its nature open source so you will see that every slide that we showed you today is already available online in one way or the other we are of course more than happy to give you additional information in case.\
Joao_Rodrigues_Frade: you feel that.\
Joao_Rodrigues_Frade: Since after the discussion and we would support of course you in any specific challenge that you might see or let's say additional questions or challenges that you could you could make to the model because it's in our benefit so the more we are able to learn about like have you thought about this or could this also work with that type of questions.\
Joao_Rodrigues_Frade: Happy to receive them because that would be helpful eventually in your group but also to us in improving the model so the model is not that I set in stone and clothes is not in the policy document as I explained this is really Innovation it's then the pilot to work with the stakeholders is not part of really a policy initiative so we can be flexible we can accommodate improvements and we would be more than happy to do so and this is why we.\
Joao_Rodrigues_Frade: I'm here to like even though I mean I'm sorry for that.\
Joao_Rodrigues_Frade: Issues with the presentation slides not moving camera is not working but I think we try to pass the essential message essential messages to the group similarly.\
Joao_Rodrigues_Frade: Thank you very much I don't know Maxine if you want to say something and Allen Before We Say Goodbye.\
<kerri_lemoie> Thank you!\
Alen Horvat: But thanks for having us if anyone has any suggestions for improving feel free to check what we produce and if you have any ideas for improvements let us know.\
<simone_ravaioli_(vc_edu)> Thank you\