The W3C Credentials Community Group

Meeting Transcriptions and Audio Recordings (2014-today)

Go Back

W3C CCG Weekly Teleconference

Transcript for 2022-11-01

<phil_l_(p1)> Need background mood music ;-)
Our Robot Overlords are scribing.
Harrison_Tang: Recording is on.
Harrison_Tang: So welcome everyone to this week's w3c ccg meeting this week we will have Daniel and I think Orie you are going to also help talk about the open Wallet foundations is that correct.
Harrison_Tang: Sounds good exciting topics so before we get to the main agendas just want to do a quick call notes first of all just want to remind everyone about the code of ethics and professional conduct just want to make sure that everyone when they leave their comments acknowledge and respect each others we don't need to agree right agreement acknowledgements are different but that's make sure that we acknowledge each other IP note anyone can participate in these.
Harrison_Tang: these calls however.
<bencrus> Consultations with all those who benefited from the platform that I shared yesterday. Believe it or leave it!... (full message at <>)
Harrison_Tang: all substansive contributions to any CCG work items must be member of the ccg with full IPR agreements signed so I've sent out those links in the emails agenda emails just click click on those things and ensure that you have a w3c account quick on notes the meeting minutes and audio recordings are can be found on the w3c ccg GitHub page and we use the jitsi chat tool here to
Harrison_Tang: queue the speakers during the call so you can type in Q+to add yourself to the queue or q- remove yourself to the queue from the queue.
Harrison_Tang: All right just want to get to the introductions and reintroductions I see couple new folks here so if you don't mind just unmute and then kind of introduce yourself or know if you have not been active in the community and just rejoining you can reintroduce yourself as well.
Harrison_Tang: Don't be shy.
Greg Bernstein: Hello this is Gregg Bernstein can you hear me.
Greg Bernstein: I am new relatively new to the group I've been teaching cyber security and web programming at Cal State University East Bay but prior to that I did a lot of work on optical networking and Optical networking standards at the ietf but got very interested in verifiable credentials all the crypto that goes with it and the apis and such when covid hit and.
Greg Bernstein: I was teaching and we had to transfer online so
Greg Bernstein: Trying to see where I can help out good to meet everyone.
<john_kuo> Hi Greg, I'm also in the East Bay
Harrison_Tang: Sounds good welcome Greg welcome to the community.
Harrison_Tang: Anyone else any other introductions reintroductions.
Harrison_Tang: I'll do the call out at the end of meeting as well next announcements and reminders.
Harrison_Tang: Kaliya do you want to do a quick IIW announcement.
<daniel> Is anyone speaking? I don’t hear anything
<orie> yes people are speaking.
<dmitri_zagidulin> @Daniel - yes, people are speaking. try another device / browser
Kaliya Young: Yeah we've got the internet identity Workshop coming up November 15 to 17 in Mountain View California if you have not registered yet and you are coming you need to register we will fill up so please do that we have open ID Foundation is having meetings on Monday the jff
Kaliya Young: Folks are meeting on Monday.
<daniel> Ok
Kaliya Young: The vrm folks are meeting on Monday ….. is having a happy hour on Monday so lots of activity is happening around IIW and yeah if you and I also think we still have a couple diversity and inclusion scholarships available so reach out I'll put my email in chat thanks bye.
Harrison_Tang: Thanks Kaliya other announcements and reminders.
Harrison_Tang: Any updates or questions on the new work items or any new work items that people want to bring up.
Harrison_Tang: All right one quick thing so last week Kimberly has mentioned about like we're going to start a little task group to talk about refining our mission statements and you know the the community's emissions and things like that so the you know if you’re interested in joining
<brent> /me I can't get any audio
Harrison_Tang: those conversations and working group please just let us know just email the chairs co-chairs.
Harrison_Tang: Any other announcements and reminders.
Harrison_Tang: Alright so let's get to the main agenda.
Harrison_Tang: By the way Daniel were you able to get the get the audio working.
<daniel> I don’t hear you and when I dial in the system disconnects the line
Harrison_Tang: Daniel Alright maybe Orie can do the presentations for them.
<daniel> Trying the web now
Orie Steele: I certainly can speak I think he says I don't hear you when I dial in system disconnects the line hopefully he will try a different web browser do we have any ideas about which web browsers work the best with jitsi.
<greg_bernstein> Firefox works
Harrison_Tang: I'm using Chrome right now on the Mac and it's working fine.
Orie Steele: Yep that's what I'm using as well.
Mike Prorock: Working fine for me.
<paul_dietrich_gs1> safari on MAC works too
Torsten_Lodderstedt: I'm using Safari on iPhone and works well.
Orie Steele: Okay hopefully Daniel can hear these wonderful suggestions.
Daniel Buchner: I did not but I was able to get it to work on Safari my apologies for the late entry I had in one of the invites I had a zoom link and then for some odd reason the app didn't work but really glad to be here.
Orie Steele: Daniel do you plan to share the deck or would you like me to.
Daniel Buchner: Given my technical problems I think it's much safer if you do.
Orie Steele: I will go ahead.
Harrison_Tang: Yep I'll do a quick background so the so for those who didn't see the email thread w3c ccg around September 20th we have emails thread around the open Wallet Foundation which is under Linux foundation so there's an announcement on that and there was a good thread going on and I thought it's a it's a it would be a good idea to invite Daniel and also Orie kind of talked about.
Harrison_Tang: the open wallet.
Harrison_Tang: foundation and their good work there or the work that they will be doing in the coming month and in the future you know I think the premise and also the philosophy behind the open wallet foundation I think all of us in the communities are definitely behind and supportive of and I think it's good for I think a lot of people in the community would be interested to learn more about it so now without further Ado just want to kind of have Daniel and Orie.
Harrison_Tang: kind of speak to that thank you.
Daniel Buchner: Thank you very much and thank you again for the kind invitation I would like to tell you a little bit about the Genesis the history how we started I want to tell you what our goals are and specifically what we're not trying to do and the reasons behind some of the early decisions that we took and then I'm really happy that Orie.
Daniel Buchner: Is joining the.
Daniel Buchner: Conversation because he knows both about the open Wallet Foundation as well of course about the ccg and I think he will be able to do a much better job than me to explain why he's there and what some of the areas might be that are probably relevant for both ccg and open wallet.
Daniel Buchner: Orie if I could ask you to go to yes thank you the next slide so let's start with maybe a brief history of open Wallet it's really a very young initiative we started discussing the idea at money 2020 in Amsterdam only in June of this year so less than half a year ago and basically organized the meeting with a couple of the European Bank identity schemes
Daniel Buchner: And discussed the idea of potentially investing together in building blocks that would allow us to create a wallet together more quickly and at a lower cost and that meeting went really well and after it was over I returned to money 2020 and by chance ran into Marie head of digital identity for Visa in Europe.
Daniel Buchner: Who had already heard about.
Daniel Buchner: That meeting and asked why Visa wasn't invited and I was thrilled of course to hear that Visa might be interested in this and a couple of weeks later at Identiverse in Denver Microsoft suggested that they may have an interest in this as well it was also Microsoft that was the first company.
Daniel Buchner: To suggest that maybe we should not start with a clean sheet of paper and create a new organization from scratch but rather work with an existing organization that one has know-how in how to build open source code and be ideally be an organization that some of the companies that are interested in shared source.
Daniel Buchner: Code would already have a relationship with and this is really what led us to approach the Linux foundation and basically pitched the idea to create the open Wallet Foundation as a chapter of the Linux Foundation similar to how kubernetes works or you know maybe more recently pie torch in the meantime we have more than 300 companies.
Daniel Buchner: And nonprofits that expressed an interest in participating I heard today that the number is now actually over 350 companies and nonprofits and I'm really happy not just with the sheer number of interested parties but the diverse mix we have some very large companies that are part of the discussion including the ones I mentioned MasterCard Microsoft Visa.
Daniel Buchner: But also.
Daniel Buchner: Accenture and Norton Avast and you know folks like Ping Identity for instance and OCTA of 0 but we also have much smaller startups and you know Orie can probably tell you a little more about that but also folks like Spruce for instance and nonprofits like the organization that is open sourcing the technology behind
Daniel Buchner: At heart an organization in India called mosop as well as folks from I spirit and nonprofits that are not primarily in the software space but in areas that I think will be will come in very handy for instance the open identity exchange or trust over IP foundation so a very diverse mix and this is really part of what we're trying to do in terms of.
Daniel Buchner: Building a bigger tent.
Daniel Buchner: Now on the next slide you see actually what we're trying to achieve with the open Wallet Foundation what we're trying to do is to create building blocks that allow anyone to publish a wallet and of course we want these wallets to be secure ideally interoperable and multi-purpose what we mean by multi-purpose is that we believe from the.
Daniel Buchner: Perspective of end-users.
Daniel Buchner: Wallets will in many situations maximize the value for customers if they are not one-trick ponies that Focus just on Identity or just on driver's licenses or just on NFTs or or cryptocurrencies or just on car keys but ideally act almost like a Swiss army knife and just like physical wallets and to a lesser extent the native.
Daniel Buchner: Mobile operating system wallet.
Daniel Buchner: Enable a plurality of use cases in a seamless fashion and taking advantage of many different formats and Technologies very specifically we are trying to focus only and exclusively on open source software so the open Wallet Foundation isn't a standardization organization we're not trying to compete with the w3c.
Daniel Buchner: Or the Decentralized Identity Foundation or the open ID Foundation or trust orp we really want to focus 100% on software and equally importantly we are not planning to publish our own wallet the reason being that we think that some of the existing companies that are interested in open wallet and hopefully some of the companies that may find the open Wallet Foundation to be appealing in the future may very.
Daniel Buchner: Well be interested to create their own wallets and we don't want the open Wallet Foundation to be seen as competing with the interests of at least a subset of the membership of the open Wallet foundation with that I'd like to pass the virtual microphone to Orie to give you a little more details.
Orie Steele: Awesome can you all hear me I think I'm unmuted but it's been a while since I spoke.
Orie Steele: Awesome so I thought I would share why transmute you know why I'm interested in participating in the open Wallet Foundation you know how we think about the owf scroll versus the other organizations that you might be aware of or that we've been engaged in before why we feel that a new organization has a has a use and value in this ecosystem and I’m going to.
Orie Steele: Focus on the two organizations that I participate in the most in which is the w3c ccg and w3c formal working groups and the decentralised identity foundation and and both of these organizations we've seen standards incubation we've seen test Suites being developed crypto suites being developed and some open source software along with some of these standards track.
Orie Steele: Documents that are headed for you know a formal.
Orie Steele: Standards process and just speaking from personal experience at the decentralized identity foundation and within the w3c ccg managing open source software is is not a thing that in general Works super well in my opinion for either the w3c ccg or dif and what I mean by that our content projects large projects with a significant.
Orie Steele: Amount of contributors.
Orie Steele: It's difficult to manage them and they tend to be very focused you know at DIF on Identity or in the credentials community group on credentials and wallets are open source software things that need to interact with both of these I would say one of the projects at DIF that's done really really well in open source is the universal resolver ….. Tech you know that that.
Orie Steele: Is a good example.
Orie Steele: Of a DIF.
Orie Steele: Project that has a large open source software development you know initiative and engagement and it's in fairly healthy at decentralized identity foundation and there are other projects that dif has that are open source that aren't specific to wallet activity and similarly at the ccg there are then there's Links at the end of the slides to some of these open source software components or standards related to wallets that are have been incubated.
Orie Steele: At the w3c ccg.
<dmitri_zagidulin> hoooooo wow... go Stable Diffusion
Orie Steele: So just to paint you a picture of what identity and credentialing standards looks like today on the left is stable diffusions idea of what standards organizations deliberating on identity standards looks like and on the right are a number of logos for organizations you might be a part of where you might be engaged in today and these aren't all standards organizations some of them are open source software communities some of them are formal standards organizations some of them are.
Orie Steele: Community groups and each of these organizations on the right has a sort of focus for the most part and that those focuses don't always lead to having the right folks in the room for digital wallets and I think it's the the Linux Foundation can help create a sort of shared common ground for some of these digital wallet building blocks and through.
Orie Steele: Collaboration and open source.
Orie Steele: We can make improvements that extend beyond the sort of Open Source software that we see supporting some of these emerging standards today.
Orie Steele: So I wanted to share with you some of the preliminary architecture to paint a picture of the way that you know currently thinking about open Wallet architecture and the the left hand side has some AI generated images of wallets with various digital items in it and on the right you see our preliminary architecture diagram and the important thing I think to notice here is this middle Center band.
Orie Steele: On digital objects and.
<mprorock> dall-e 2 deliberation on decentralized identity (so as not to give stable diffusion all the credit)
Orie Steele: This really speaks to what Daniel is saying before around the need to have wallets that aren't just single trick or narrowly focused but to have wallets that can support digital identity tickets digital car keys digital assets tokenized credit cards financial instruments the digital representations of these sort of physical Concepts and giving users a set of building blocks giving developers a set of building blocks to build.
Orie Steele: Experiences for.
Orie Steele: Users that aren't limited to just a single digital object type thing and then the other piece I'd like to draw your attention to is this protocols layer and you know full disclosure of being these are preliminary architecture diagrams we've just been discussing the ecosystem as we've been able to sort of explore it and one of the things that we've seen is that you know it's not.
Orie Steele: Enough to have support.
Orie Steele: For digital objects but you need to have ways of exchanging them you need to have an understanding of the protocols that when and standards that might be relevant to moving these digital objects around in an interoperable way and so when we think about you know wallet modularity or wallet architectures there's the digital objects into the data modeling layer and some of the the work that has happened within the w3c ccg and the w3c.
Orie Steele: Applies to that data modeling layer so for example decentralized identifiers.
Orie Steele: Verifiable credentials as you know digital objects or systems that are managed as digital objects within a digital wallet and then there's these protocols which have to do with you know transacting between a wallet and a website or between an issuer and a holder in the context of some of these w3c standards so again this is just a preliminary architecture but I'm hopefully painting a picture.
Orie Steele: That that is inclusive of several things that have been.
Orie Steele: Very that been developed at w3c and some things that haven’t been developed at w3c you know specifically digital Asset Management digital car keys tokenized credit cards some of those things that you haven't necessarily seen being led within the w3c but that are very relevant to digital wallets.
Orie Steele: So I wanted to share some work in in the context of work that's happened within the w3c that might be relevant to the open wallet foundation and basically to share some of these sort of components that we've been working on speaking for transmute and I guess measure and mavin that to some extent we've been working on supply chain traceability issues and essentially the interoperability tests that we've been developing for.
Orie Steele: Supply chain traceability with decentralized identifiers.
Orie Steele: And verifiable credentials are a test of a kind of cloud wallet for supply chain and we have an open source implementation which we've been using to help pass some of those tests and to also inform architectural decisions around them and this speaks to components that are standard track sort of documents around the data model and the apis removing the data model around that are relevant to the.
Orie Steele: Digital Wallet work but the digital Wallet work isn't the place to do that standards.
Orie Steele: Work we have open source software that supports this and so I wanted to share these test results and some of these links to these projects because there's a chance that some of the components that we're using to build and support these interoperability tests could be you know in the future donated to open wallet foundation in a modular way so that any wallet implementer could support some of these interoperable data models or the interoperable apis.
Orie Steele: Around exchanging them.
Orie Steele: And with that the last links are just the links to the links Foundation announcement the architecture task force repo in the open Wallet Foundation GitHub and then there's some links to some w3c resources that have informed some of those conversations so in particular that Universal wallet interops spec has a lot of overlap with the core mission of open Wallet Foundation the VC API is one of these apis that support those interoperability.
Orie Steele: Tests that I just showed the VP request spec and the.
Orie Steele: Credential Handler API are mechanisms for exchanging verifiable credentials between a holder wallet and a verifier website and so these are these are building blocks that could be relevant to the protocols layer or to the data modeling layer with the open wallet foundation and there could be open source that supports these standards and standards track drafts at the w3c ccg that might be contributed to the open wallet foundation and that could lead to increased adoption of these standards.
Orie Steele: And with that I'm happy to stop presenting and answer any questions that we have.
Harrison_Tang: Thank you Orie thank you Daniel.
Harrison_Tang: Any questions please just type in a q+ and add yourself to the queue.
Manu Sporny: Yes yep thank you Daniel thank you Orie for that presentation really helpful to kind of understand what owf is planning on doing before I say the rest of this stuff I just want to make it super clear that I'm very very supportive of the vision for open Wallet Foundation I think the vision is great I think it's solid yes.
Manu Sporny: Absolutely we need.
Manu Sporny: Open-source building blocks to support not only digital wallets but you know moving all these credentials around and so I think that's a fantastic wonderful Vision it is the execution on that Vision that I remain skeptical of again I hope you're successful in achieving the vision that said usually Linux Foundation programs the really.
Manu Sporny: Successful ones.
Manu Sporny: Have an open source project that has already taken off something that has been released three or five or ten years ago it has a really strong open-source following and it needs a home and then it's moved into Linux Foundation right in open Wallet foundations case what we're looking at is kind of design by committee architecture group that's going to create this open source code from day one and you've got 350 organizations.
Manu Sporny: All involved in that process.
<orie> Be the change you want to see in the world manu :)
Manu Sporny: Right I think I've never seen that pulled off before what I've typically seen is you know the closest thing would be like the openstack work where the large amount of that was written by Rackspace and IBM and then and then contributed so so that's the first thing is this feels like it's going to become a design by committee open source project and we need to understand that there are already.
Manu Sporny: Open source projects that exist out there for doing verifiable credentials and mdl and all that kind of stuff like there are existing pieces of software that people have put effort into in I'm not quite understanding why those other programs are not being supported more since they do have usage and people are using them that's the first concern the second concern is around what typically happens in these situations like Everyone likes to.
Manu Sporny: Say Hey you know chromium is an open open code base.
Manu Sporny: Anyone can contribute to it right but in reality it's Google you're going to hit some Google internal Google team where Google has hired all the open source developers that work on that part of chromium in in order to get it into chromium or get it shipped you are looking at going through a large multinational corporation to get your stuff in there so I'm not saying it's a bad thing like you know chromium exists webkit.
Manu Sporny: Exists and it's a good thing.
Manu Sporny: But you shouldn't underestimate how Linux Foundation is used in order to create something open source but still maintain kind of corporate control over the over the open source tool so this this is a this is an argument for diversity and open source implementations not to have a monolith open source implementation again I want to make it very clear that very supportive of the vision.
Manu Sporny: It's just I have not.
<mprorock> /me thinks that is a bit cynical - and that has not been my experience (not that i am not possessive of a healthy degree of skepticism in big tech)
Manu Sporny: Seen something attempted in this way that has led to you know a successful outcome that's it.
Daniel Buchner: No thank you very much for the kind critical feedback which is really appreciated let me maybe try to respond to the first point first I think you yourself mentioned that there are a lot of Open Source projects already and when we look at the landscape of you know everything from verifiable credentials to anon creds to.
Daniel Buchner: Tokenized payment cards you know credit cards and debit cards to car keys to room keys there is a lot of Open Source work going on already and the idea is not to throw that away on the contrary the idea is to start with building blocks and identify building blocks where code already exists so let's take ISO mdl just as an example there is already open source code.
Daniel Buchner: Available for Android to the best of my knowledge there is not or at least not a great open source Library available for iOS today so the idea is not to say let's start in a vacuum but rather to take stock and look at what's available and then try to bring individuals and organizations together who have an interest in code for iso mdl and then.
Daniel Buchner: Agree how a good implementation on Android and iOS that is truly open source and is adhering to all the standards to the best extent possible how such a code base would look like and then we're trying to do the same thing for tokenized debit cards and credit cards where we we’re really fortunate that companies like MasterCard and Visa who worked on emdes and Vitas are interested to.
Daniel Buchner: Be part of that work so we're trying to get again organizations and at the end of the day people together to suggest a really good implementation for tokenizing payment cards and the idea is not to do that pop down for an executive director or a board to say those are the projects and you know if you don't like them too bad but rather to have this approach bottom up.
Daniel Buchner: So if you care about iso mdl.
Daniel Buchner: Or if you care about something that you know no one has mentioned yet the idea is that everyone can get together create a building block and for that building block to become part of the open Wallet code what we hope to be able to do is over time find commonality between those building blocks and you know there are so many people on this call who are so much more technical than I am that I'm I don't want to make suggestions but just you know.
Daniel Buchner: As an example maybe the different.
Daniel Buchner: Groups the different building blocks can agree on programming languages or maybe they'll agree on shared Key Management over time or maybe they come to identify a couple of principles like you know agility when it comes to crypto and try to say well it would be great if all the building blocks would live up to some of these principles and the goal really is that the board.
<keith_kowal> Will OWF include wallet UI / UX?
Daniel Buchner: Will do as little as possible and for as much as possible to work bottom up rather than top-down.
Daniel Buchner: And you know having said that this is still you know something that was born in June it is still not formalized so you Manu anyone else on this call if you have a better idea if you care about wallets if you care about a plurality of wallets we are really looking for feedback and for constructive criticism to see how we can on the one hand take advantage.
Daniel Buchner: Of the work that has been done.
Daniel Buchner: Already and on the other hand trying to bring you know different and and in some cases almost violently opposed camps together which is one of the things I really like with the metaphor of a browser engine because in a browser engine like blink you have a lot of different internals right you have HTML and you have web IDL and you have I don't know that the JavaScript V8 engine.
<orie> > Will OWF include wallet UI / UX?
Daniel Buchner: And you would never say let’s.
Daniel Buchner: Drop HTML over V8 or vice versa and my hope is that we can do the same thing that we can actually have a really good implementation for w3c verifiable credentials and a an implementation for car keys and for tokenizing you know credit cards and debit cards and maybe anon creds and for those to become components so that if you want to publish a wallet and you're interested in many of these buildings.
Daniel Buchner: Blocks that we make it easier for you to basically.
Daniel Buchner: Take those.
Daniel Buchner: Building blocks and make them part of your of your wallet.
Mike Prorock: Yeah no I just wanted to jump in you know kind of personal hat on first which is awesome cool I think this could potentially be really useful and I've had you know kind of a gut desire at some point to see something to an equivalent of open ssl as a Swiss army knife and tool kit and common set of libraries now that I also have security concerns and stuff like that but a common set of libraries.
Mike Prorock: For working with the kinds of things that we work with.
Mike Prorock: Whether it's verifiable credentials or dids Etc and there's been a lot of good work from a lot of companies on this I've contributed code to some of them personally right and as a company certainly we've got folks contributing to that and I think pass this along to Orie obviously but any of the code we've contributed to did act or other things like that very happy to donate those ….. foundation I think it can be potentially very helpful at least as good foundational typescript and JavaScript examples not that we use them.
Mike Prorock: In production but it is something we actively test against and validate and try to improve over time so that the community has a .
Mike Prorock: Good example set so.
Orie Steele: Well that love that snipe at JavaScript Mike keep it coming.
Mike Prorock: No problem you know I can't help it and if you don't know that's totally a good fun back and forth with Orie on the JavaScript side but but yeah it's it's something definitely I would support of and wanna see you know continue and will continue to help any way we can so that's personal hat off now and going to chair hat which is how is ccg chairs aside from making sure we're bringing you guys in to talk about what's going on what's actually.
Mike Prorock: Going on what are the goals how can we help support.
Mike Prorock: Right because a lot of this is providing solid Implement ultimately I think provides solid implementations of the things we work on here at ccg elsewhere in you know w3c and also IETF dif etcetera right so basically what are some feedback and concrete thoughts actions from Daniel from Orie etcetera as far as how the ccg can help.
Daniel Buchner: Well I think you are already helpful you know by starting with criticism and saying you know out loud what you think is not ideal and so I really appreciate you know Manu’s feedback I have spoken with him before and I think we will only get better if people are you know criticizing criticizing what they what they dislike in addition to that I think there are.
Daniel Buchner: Two areas where we are.
Daniel Buchner: At the moment looking for input and for feedback one is we are really trying to get this duocracy going and basically get folks together to take a look at the existing four building blocks that were identified again those are payment tokens Iso MDL verifiable credentials and anon creds and anyone around those four areas if.
Daniel Buchner: You feel that there is code base that.
<orie> (and DIDS : )
Daniel Buchner: Should be used as a starting point and or if you are a developer or have a developer to spare and are interested for that developer to add to any one of those building blocks please make yourself heard we really want this to be your project.
Daniel Buchner: If you feel that there is a building block missing and I certainly feel there are a lot of building blocks missing please feel free to suggest them and try to find like-minded people who either have code and or developers to spare in order to make sure that that building block exists and on the governance side and on the more strategic side you know if you have a proposal for.
Daniel Buchner: How to create something that.
Daniel Buchner: Is as useful as possible for the broader Community even if it's not pertaining to particular code but and you know overarching principle we want to hear that as well we haven't Incorporated the foundation we hope to do that either at the end of this year or hopefully in the first quarter of next year so it's still something that is formidable we can change it based on the feedback that we receive and we are really Keen to hear any and all well meant feedback.
Harrison_Tang: Thank you Orie you have the floor.
Orie Steele: So I'm queued to just to mention one area where your feedback is really appreciated and that's and if you think about the different protocols that might perform similar behaviors and informing the open Wallet foundation on the traction that these different protocols have in the market and the order in which we might want to see open source implementations of them supported so for example with.
Orie Steele: Verifiable credentials there's the VC API there's open ID connect there's chapi there's didcomm they each of these has a role or has a set of capabilities that might facilitate parts of that verifiable credential triangle between issuer holder and verifier and we see a lot of potential redundancy in these different protocol pieces and a wallet might implement
Orie Steele: Several of these protocols to be interoperable so that you know regardless of which issuer or verifier you go to you have a way to get your digital objects into your wallet and get them out with your wallet to present and you can imagine scenarios where maybe you got a verifiable credential from an open ID connect flow but you're presenting it over it didcomm flow or things like that those are standards that exist out there today and that you can Implement support for.
Orie Steele: But the order in which the open Wallet Foundation addresses the.
Orie Steele: Open source software that supports them is a function of who will do the work and that's and that's an area where I think folks in this community could really engage super positively to support protocols that you are passionate about that you know have you know adoption in the market today that would provide value to your platform if you're you know setting up an issue and safety with the VC API for example maybe you want to provide some open source software that allows a older wallet to.
Orie Steele: Receive credentials from it that's the kind of activity where I think this.
Orie Steele: Community could really help move the needle and increasing the adoption of some of these w3c standards that we believe you know are going to help provide greater authenticity for digital actors and digital wallets generally that's it.
Harrison_Tang: Thanks Orie Mike.
Mike Prorock: Yeah no that that was very helpful I want to ask just since mdl has been brought up a few times and then also just kind of thinking about the question that Orie just brought up as far as like protocol overlap and things like that right there’s the end doc versus VCs I mean there's there's a lot of contention there for a lot of good reason I guess the question I have around the mdl side specifically is do you have any concerns about licensing or licensing.
Mike Prorock: Standards from ISO and providing implementations and then probably.
Mike Prorock: More importantly.
Mike Prorock: Do you have any concerns about providing a wallet you know framework or tooling around wallets that could be or have you gotten Clarity for instance from Apple around their patent that just came out of that ….. use of mdl at you know checkpoints and things like that which is like a very core wallet like that patents really broad right so are there concerns from your side there or their concerns for Linux Foundation there.
Mike Prorock: Or have you received or could you help receive potentially some.
Mike Prorock: Commitment from Apple around defensive use as opposed to offensive use of that patent any insights there.
Daniel Buchner: So the simple answer are we concerned or am I concerned is yes.
Daniel Buchner: I think most people on this call are probably sharing your concern I believe that this is one of the reasons why something like the open Wallet Foundation is a good thing I believe that almost every company and nonprofit and government shares an interest in a plurality of secure interoperable wallets and probably inherently dislikes the idea of any one company or institution.
Daniel Buchner: Trying to monopolize the wallet space we have seen companies trying to use wallet as choke points either to extract money or to extract data and I believe that wallets should be neutral digital public infrastructure and in a world where some companies see this differently I believe it is especially important that those forces.
Daniel Buchner: That disagree and that think that wallets are not a place to make money either directly or indirectly should get together and you know can I offer you a guarantee that we are able to convince any company to do something they may not want to do no there is no such guarantee but.
Daniel Buchner: If the question is are we better off trying to bring.
Daniel Buchner: Essentially the entire world that is interested in a plurality of wallets together even if that world may disagree to in technical terms which formats and which protocols to use and are we better off if such a coalition could become a better partner for governments as well because governments have now a third choice not just to work with the.
Daniel Buchner: Winners of the mobile operating.
<mprorock> Chair Hat on: would love Anil's response to this last statement from Daniel
Orie Steele: +1 Daniel, if we are successful nearly everyone will benefit from it.
Daniel Buchner: System Wars or to try and create a wallet Monopoly for themselves as governments but rather to work with what is hopefully going to become a very broad Alliance of companies nonprofits and government together to create more of a Level Playing Field I believe the answer is yes this is going to help almost everyone in this field and this is why we have car companies and we have Healthcare companies and software.
Daniel Buchner: Companies and travel companies.
Daniel Buchner: And of course companies in the you know narrow identity space as well as credit card schemes and Banks because even though their interest is vastly different they look at wallets and are interested in wallets for very very different reasons we all share a desire and the conviction that wallets must not become choke points.
Harrison_Tang: Thank you Daniel Manu.
Shawn Butterfield: +1 Daneil
Mike Prorock: +1 Daniel !!! (chair hat off)
Manu Sporny: Yeah plus 1 to that Vision Daniel I think it's a those are fantastic points and again the completely on board with the division in my takeaway there is that owf will then also be involved in intellectual property concerns around patents in copyright and all variety of other things that's that.
Manu Sporny: That you'd have to be in in order to.
Manu Sporny: Deliver on that that Vision which I think it's fine right because w3c and IETF they're involved in patent concerns and copyright concerns and things of that nature it's impossible to avoid one of the thing I queued myself though was a different question it was around whether or not you've considered funding the people that are already writing the open source so rather than you know ask for.
Manu Sporny: For us to come into owf and contribute .
Kaliya Young: +1 <3 To what manu is saying
Manu Sporny: To some new open source project or new library thing like that my understanding is that owf is going to try and raise a significant amount of funding and we do know that there are a number of Open Source developers that exist out there right now that are building software and tooling for our ecosystem that are effectively reaching into their own pocket to pay themselves right and so what we have done meaning ….. has done over the years is we have funded these open source developers we've tried to pay them.
Manu Sporny: You know we tried to scrape together money to kind of pay each one a certain amount to implement.
Manu Sporny: Feature by feature and the reason that at least we do that is because we don't feel like there is going to be one platform or one open source Library or one anything that's going to be able to achieve the support that the market needs every organization has has their preferences around programming environment and programming language and so you know I think you're going to have to support many different open source packages that effectively do the same thing but in different.
Manu Sporny: Different programming environments I have you have you considered you know what.
Manu Sporny: Percentage of the revenue to owf you would redirect towards open source developers that are already working on those programs.
Daniel Buchner: So this is one of the key questions I think and the way we are trying to answer that question is basically by saying first of all how you know what are the building blocks that we believe as a community are important and some of them will overlap some of them may be pretty unique but what are those building blocks step number two understand what is the available code base and can we simply use that code or is there work to.
Daniel Buchner: Be done.
<orie> Part of the answer is, we can't advocate for a building block we don't know exists, which is why we are gathering active projects and reviewing them together now.
Daniel Buchner: And then to understand what is work that is happily done by community members the basic theory is that the open Wallet foundation will play as a foundation the smallest role possible but wherever there are gaps we need to identify those gaps so my hunch and it's just a hunch is that there will be areas where there's probably a lot of code and maybe even a lot of developers and there may be other areas.
Daniel Buchner: That we all feel are.
Daniel Buchner: Really critical and important to address but there's probably not a lot of code and not a lot of developers and not a lot of companies that are interested to do something and this is an area where I believe we need to do exactly what you suggest namely to ensure that there are funds available that can be used to entice people to provide important work that no one else would do otherwise.
Daniel Buchner: So this is not a perfect answer I cannot give you a dollar amount and I cannot tell you exactly what that work is going to be but I can and want to invite you and everyone else on this call as well as anyone else who you think should be part of the conversation that isn't all ready to weigh in and try to identify what can be done by the community and where we will have gaps and what the required funding is to address those gaps.
Daniel Buchner: In order to ensure that the open Wallet Foundation comes up with a.
Daniel Buchner: Solution that is truly helpful.
Daniel Buchner: And we've by the way changed that so when I say that we're looking for for feedback we started initially with a model or with the idea that most of the development would be done by the foundation itself and we saw quite a bit of interest from different companies to provide and donate code as well as developers and and basically change the model a little bit to say well if there is an area where we can.
Daniel Buchner: Can rely on existing code and on.
Daniel Buchner: Developers that are very familiar with that code working at you know companies like Visa or maybe you know a card company for for the CCC car keys to rely on those and basically build on what's built and really focus on the gaps.
Harrison_Tang: Thank you and by the way Daniel I have a question in regards to kind of how this relays to hyper Ledger Aires because hyper Ledger Aries are I believe is also open source Wallet so is open Wallet Foundation going to work with Hyper Ledger Aires or is it a complete separate thing.
<orie> There is also "Aries Bifold".
Daniel Buchner: Yeah I would hope that Aries is going to become one of the building blocks of the open Wallet engine or whatever you know we'll end up calling it but I also hope that it's going to be you know just quote unquote one building block so I believe when you look at wallets holistically when you look at them from the perspective of what physical wallets are able to do when you look at.
Daniel Buchner: You know all the things that something like an Apple wallet.
Daniel Buchner: Or a Google Wallet is able to do I believe that it wouldn't be enough to Simply say let's you know use Aries as the end-all-be-all solution but conversely it would be tragic if open Wallet would not have an Aries building block so my hope is that we are able and this is why you know we call this a bigger tent the hope really is to be able to
Daniel Buchner: Create something that is very useful to Aries but something that is equally useful to a lot of other companies a lot of other nonprofits a lot of other people with slightly different ideas and in some cases even opposing ideas and allow for different building blocks to co-exist to over time work better together and then eventually enable the flexibility for any publisher of a wallet to choose the building.
Daniel Buchner: Blocks they want to use depending on.
Daniel Buchner: The use case and probably in some cases also depending on the geography.
Harrison_Tang: Cool thank you any last questions from the community.
Harrison_Tang: All right I just want to say thank you again Daniel and Orie for a great presentation on Open Wallet Foundation I think if you don't mind just send me the deck if it's a if it's okay for the public to review and I'll send it to reply back to the agenda that I sent out last week.
Orie Steele: Sure yeah I can I can follow up with that.
Daniel Buchner: Thank you very much for the invitation and if you want to be on the mailing list just go to and if you leave your contact details there you are on the mailing list and will be invited to all the open Wallet meetings.
Daniel Buchner: Thank you very much.
Harrison_Tang: Great and then I will also send a follow-up email Daniel and then you can send me those information I will reply back to the thread as well alright we only have one minute left any last introductions reintroductions announcements or reminders.
Harrison_Tang: Alright thank you and then just a quick reminder next week we won't have a meeting because actually sorry next week we will have Christina and the Microsoft team to talk about the entra verified ID and then the the week after that the meeting is canceled because of the internet identity Workshop.
Harrison_Tang: all right thanks a lot.
Harrison_Tang: Have a good one bye.