Kerri Lemoie: Hello everybody Welcome to the Monday November 21st call or w3c verifiable credentials for Education task force we meet every Monday at 8:00 a.m. Pacific and 11 a.m. eastern we go over some boilerplate notes at the beginning and then we will get into our main topic that will be about Club Crest to I'm going to be your meeting moderator today my name is Kerri Lemoie. ✪
Topic: IP Note
Kerri Lemoie: And the first thing on our IR on our. ✪
Kerri Lemoie: Is to discuss IP note please know that anybody anyone at all can participate in this cause however I'll substitute for contributions to any of the ccg work items specifically on documentation and standards should be done by members with full IP our agreement signed you should ensure that first the you have a W3 account and then you can agree to the contributor license agreement if you check the agenda for this call the links for all of this. ✪
Kerri Lemoie: It will be in there as you may know we have a. ✪
Topic: Call Notes
Kerri Lemoie: Scriber and this this robot does the best that it can to understand us even mumblers like me and I take these notes for us that we publish so we publish everything including the audio and potentially video If we have it to a public page and this is how we have an archive for us to look back on to learn for and for those who can attend the meetings we do we do Q everything in these calls to if you would like to ask a question. ✪
Kerri Lemoie: Or or I make a comment just type you. ✪
Kerri Lemoie: In the chat just like I'm doing right now. ✪
Kerri Lemoie: So adieu to the queue I mean type Q - they can remove yourself from the queue and as we're doing the call we'll keep an eye on that cue and calling you you know it seems the best fit so next let's see what we're going to do some introductions and reintroductions about 20 23 people on the call today so is there anybody here that is new or who is revisiting this call would like to introduce themselves. ✪
Jen_Schreiber: Hi I'm Jen Schreiber I am an engineer software engineer at work day and got to hear about some of the plugfest at IW so I'm happy to join in on this call. ✪
Maury_Shenk_(LearnerShape): Hi I'm Maury I'm founder of a fairly early stage UK startup called learner shape we build open source infrastructure for skills and very interested to hear what everybody has to say joining us. ✪
Kerri Lemoie: Hey one other thing I should note that if you are paying attention to the robot transcriber on the left side and you see that it it transcribes the word that definitely is not the word you could help us along with that by doing substitutions in the chat and you can do that like this I'm going to type it try and show you what I mean did you ask for it / wrong word or / right word and that should later on when the. ✪
Kerri Lemoie: Happy place the wrong one with the right one for us. ✪
Topic: Announcements & Reminders
Kerri Lemoie: Next on the agenda is announcements and reminders does anybody have anything they would like to tell us about anything that's upcoming anything they've launched recently new jobs or anything else that is going on. ✪
Kerri Lemoie: Is there something or would like to tell us something later feel free to cure yourself in any time and you can do that. ✪
Kerri Lemoie: So what are we get to our main topic which is to talk about the plugfest don't see Sharon Luan here today Shannon nope she might join us in a little while we'll get started anyway oh you are here right here let me give you a link to my slides. ✪
Kerri Lemoie: Actually turn while I'm pulling up the slides how about you I call on you just to give us sort of an introduction to what the plugfest has been and tell us more about it from a jobs for the future jff perspective. ✪
<jim_goodell> Is Kerri on mute or is it just me?
Sharon Leu: Thanks Carrie and thanks for everyone for joining today so just a quick overview of my name is Sharon Lou and I work at an organization called jobs for the future for those of you who don't know jobs for the future is an organization in the United States that has been around for about 40 years and we focus on the question of how do we provide opportunities for economic advancement for all our research question in the context of credentials then is what is the role that digital credentials can play. ✪
Sharon Leu: In that process and we're very interested in the idea of individuals. ✪
<kerri_lemoie> I was just on mute but I think folks could hear me... Can you hear Sharon?
<jim_goodell> ...sorry must be me I see transcription.
<julie_keane> Yes we can hear Sharon
Sharon Leu: Learning and working records over the course of a Lifetime right so what people talk about when they talk about lifelong learning and managing the credentials that I think that provide evidence of the skills and abilities that they do have and being able to share and share these as they pursue further opportunities so with some funding from the Walmart Foundation we are. ✪
<kerri_lemoie> Thanks @Jim
Sharon Leu: Hosting a series of in the middle I guess of a series of plugfest in the purpose of these is to see if we can make it technical possible to for Learners and workers to curate their own learning and employment records and in order to curate their learning and employment records it's necessary for Learners to have control over these digital credentials to be able to hold them in to create presentation so we've been taking this we just finished the second of three. ✪
<kaliya> I am dialing in on my phone - and the app there - but I can’t hear any of you. Mmm
Sharon Leu: Well it's themselves and the credentials the second one that just happened last week at iiw we looked at the interaction between wallets and credential issuers and I see that on the agenda we're going to be talking about the third one but hopefully we are hoping to be able then to bring the third sort of leg of the trust triangle into that the verifiers and relying parties so in that context it is a very it's you know been it's been great for all of you to be. ✪
<dmitri_zagidulin> @Kaliya - I ran into similar (with my mobile app), try connect in a mobile browser?
Sharon Leu: Been possible without you and I'll just give my quick hot take is I was actually really impressed with all of the work that happens not that impressing you should me should be your goal but I think we a lot of us went into this thinking that we were presenting a hardship to all of you that it would be may be difficult for you to find the minimum number of two partners but what really astonished us was the number of that once interoperability I think was achieved with one or two partners it made it infinitely easier. ✪
Sharon Leu: Some other tools to actually demonstrate interoperability across a large number of the players in the ecosystem and I know that Carrie you have some slides about this so I won't get too much into that but I think that is overall my quick my hot take on this and I will guess turn it back over to you carry to go through the rundown and if anyone has any questions put them into the chat and I will chat with you or we can talk later. ✪
Kerri Lemoie: I'm going to put the slides back up here for you. ✪
Kerri Lemoie: Okay can everyone see my slides okay. ✪
<sheri_myrick-asu> yes
<julie_keane> Seeing only black screen. But all good I have them pulled up
Kerri Lemoie: I see two of these are sides that have I pulled together for today I am certain they are not entirely complete and I'm happy that there are so many of you on the call who are at breakfast so please feel free to jump in at any point in time put yourself in the queue and fill in any thoughts while these slides are online or at the end of the slides we'll have time for for more discussions. ✪
Kerri Lemoie: We love partnering up with Jeff F on this because it is our Vector really has been to to see that the podcast would broaden the vendor participation using VCS and dids and in the VC I do ecosystem and we want to be able to introduce PC wallets and issuers to Education data standards including at this time it was open badges 3.0 and and also increase interoperability and I put this. ✪
Kerri Lemoie: This note in because it's somebody put this in the notes and. ✪
Kerri Lemoie: It which is the most simplest way to explain interoperability or itís to let language let's machine speak to each other this all fits within our Charter BC edgy at the task force to make be seized and Education data standards more aligned more useful and any crease adoption and understanding and and I think as you'll see at the plugfest we you know we scaled this quite a bit and it was is. ✪
Kerri Lemoie: What we did was we focus on these protocols and the standard we focused on be Capi chappie which we will go into a little bit o IDC did Combi to and then open badges 3.0 the top three were protocol are protocols used to exchange and transmit an issue verifiable credentials or to communicate in some. ✪
Kerri Lemoie: Which is a communication protocol a messaging protocol and then also open badges 3.0 which we've spoken a lot about in this call with this group because 3.0 actually sourced from a decision made from this community to work with one edtech2 charter and deliver open badges 3.0 which aligns verifiable credentials to that standard that is I think if I believe it. ✪
Kerri Lemoie: So these are the requirements for the plugfest issuers were required to issue a valid open badges 3.0 credential to two different wallets and then while that's were required to accept and display a valid batchly porno from two different issuers they were all participants are required to use did authentication and to display a valid open badge 3.0 they're required to display I required we see fields which I don't have listed here. ✪
Kerri Lemoie: Issue an issuance date and proof achievement image issuer name achievement name achievement description achievement criteria and then optionally could be issue a logo or any other optional Magic Properties or protocol specific Fields so we told folks they could add whatever they wanted to do the open badge they into the credential if they wanted to but the required Fields were what we were looking for specifically then we asked for videos that demonstrated the. ✪
Kerri Lemoie: The validation of open badges 3.0 and for the videos the doesn't list here we ask that issue areas either submit videos of their platforms issuing two wallets or that while it's could submit to videos on behalf of those issuers and as long as all those requirements from it then that would pass passport was required for their participation I believe some of this is still being reviewed but I'm demo day what. ✪
Kerri Lemoie: We did was review these videos and and talk about. ✪
Kerri Lemoie: I don't go through I'm whole timeline but you can see that we started in August and really honestly we started talking about this at the end of plugfest one which is in June and then we did the open call in August and through September we set some deadlines and then the videos were due in November and demo day was this past Monday on November 14th the day before I had W in Mountain View California at the. ✪
Kerri Lemoie: How we communicated during the click best for through direct emails to participants and we try to encourage if you see I do you mail list as much as possible and that's what we did for plugfest 14 for this podcast we decided we would set up select channels per protocol which seemed to be honestly very effective for most of the participants I think like some drawbacks for that first of all they needed to be added to the slack and then it meant that all the conversations happening. ✪
Kerri Lemoie: Being there were not happening on the BC edu email list where. ✪
Kerri Lemoie: Benefit but it did give the members each of the protocols abilities to just really work directly very quickly any sickness I think another downside may have been that there were some people who are on only one protocol and they weren't really seeing the discussions happening on the other calls other other select channels I mean. ✪
Kerri Lemoie: The demo day they said it was virtual and in person I'm guessing about 150 attorneys between virtual and in person might be a little bit above or below that but quite a few people participated in the day we split it up into basically three sections including lunch in there so we had demos to discussions we broke it up into three different protocols and then we did a debrief and then we had some lunch and. ✪
Kerri Lemoie: Some people stuck the second time for a while longer even to talk more about ways that we could go forward. ✪
Kerri Lemoie: Man so I'll be the rest of the slides of go into the rest of the demo day and how we went through this I want to thank Manu from digital bizarre folks there Who provided some slides and also we have sides I'm from the oid see crew and I slow I grabbed a few here just to share what the experiences are some of you may not have heard of chappie NBC API so I'm just briefly that. ✪
Kerri Lemoie: A any PI that describes endpoints to issue an exchange credentials and chappy is sort of the the connector the the browser I'm someone's probably explain this better than I can but the browser polyfill that makes it possible for wallets to connect to issuers so it's sort of like the in-between Communicator between issuers and wallet. ✪
Kerri Lemoie: Sorry folks made this great place for you to try this out called the chappie playground the URL is on here at chappie dot IO this ended up being immensely useful for many of our participants because what we were able to do is have those who had issuing apis and platforms they could connect on the background in the background to the chap you playground and the tabut playground could be used to choose the issuer and then connect to the wallet that the. ✪
Kerri Lemoie: You can see this is a pretty pretty remarkable list of participants so they were 81 combinations they were demonstrated not all of these were using and the chappie playground there are some participants like participate in our learning economy and DC and others who implemented chappie in their own system but some many books use the chapter playground for this so they're 81 combinations demonstrated 17 different. ✪
Kerri Lemoie: Who just came in from the broader we see API Community to join in and they're a different wallets five web well it's and three native mobile apps. ✪
<sheri_myrick-asu> Kaliya play around with sound with the arrow next to your microphone.
Kerri Lemoie: So these are the 81 combinations that were demonstrated. ✪
Kerri Lemoie: I will get through this this whole movement calling at the bingo bingo board but you can see that all of the different platforms that worked with each other and that of coordinated with each other either through choppy or through the playground and this included doing did off too. ✪
Kerri Lemoie: Actually before I move on is there anybody here on the call that's what I want to talk about their experiences with chappie and be Capi see if you view on here that were plugfest participants. ✪
Kerri Lemoie: I hope you don't mind but I'm going to call on somebody. ✪
Kerri Lemoie: All right Julie Julie came from participate may I call on you to tell you about your experience and we are teens experience with this. ✪
Julie_Keane: Sure well it was a it was a great experience because we've been working with a bunch of different organizations that have been thinking about more about adoption and we're very excited to jump into something that would experiment with the wallet we had a developer and created a Sandbox because our actual learning platform our credentials didn't wouldn't you know. ✪
Julie_Keane: we're only at the 2.1 spec for open badges so we. ✪
Julie_Keane: Inbox and with the amazing team including carry and James Dimitri were just incredibly super helpful as well as the folks at LEF so it was it was really felt very seamless from my perspective and I know that there was some problem solving but again given the fastest Sprint it was just a really fun it was really fun experiment and a really supportive community. ✪
Kerri Lemoie: Thanks Julie and the participate team so one of the things that happened was we provided an example badge for The participants to use and they could have chosen to use that badge or use one of their own as long as it complied with the open badges 2.0 spec and participate using actual badge from their platform to do this and do you want to tell us a little bit about that badge and the. ✪
Julie_Keane: Yeah sure I mean yeah that seemed really obvious to me from the beginning that we would create a Sandbox and then kind of rebuild a badge in the sandbox and we chose black girl Ventures because they were had been involved with them jobs for the future New Sharon had been in some of their accelerator and Mentor program and black our adventures just for background train black and brown women of color who are starting businesses and are trying to solve the problem of lack of. ✪
<phil_t3> I at least can't hear Julie's audio. Don't know if others have that problem
<kerri_lemoie> Sorry for audio issues that some are experiencing.
Julie_Keane: Structural racism which verifiable credentials probably can't solve but some of it is also just building knowledge around ecosystems building business plans getting access to Banks learning how to talk to Banks and VC all of those things so this was a learning pathway that black girl Ventures had developed they've had these credentials available in participate for a year and a half so they've had hundreds almost actually 1200 women trained through these learning pathways. ✪
Julie_Keane: The platform but only Bell who is the CEO of lacquer Adventures immediately saw the possibilities if they could get pushed into wallets and so that's why we decided to actually use an actual badge so that we would jump into an actual use case. ✪
Julie_Keane: And so that's what we're trying to really explore now is what are the next steps for she's very excited to figure out the next steps like right away she has a lot of energy so yeah trying to figure that out. ✪
<sharon_leu> ha, julie, no vc's can't solve systemic racism! but what an interesting tool.
Kerri Lemoie: Excellent as great thanks Julie does anybody else have anything else they'd like to say about their experiences with chappie or be Capi. ✪
Kerri Lemoie: I'm going to move on to the next particle then we did and also by the way once again feel free to jump in whenever you'd like to add to this conversation the next protocol is oid see I did put a link in the slides to the slides that were provided for oid see because there's some great information in there about how it works and I think that might be helpful and actually grab these notes. ✪
Kerri Lemoie: From the sides and with that group did they they demonstrate interoperability between 9 and dependent issuers and it while in implementations and this included different verifiable credential formats different crypto algorithms different issue identifiers and did methods and also different holder binding methods different did methods their their bingo chart looks like this these are their results. ✪
<julie_keane> agreed @sharon and these open tech tools really provide avenues of access that can def support those fighting the good fight. :-)
Kerri Lemoie: And here you can see who is connecting to who issuer and then the wallet. ✪
Kerri Lemoie: David I still try to go see you on here would you like to talk a little bit about your experience with a pie crust. ✪
David Chadwick: Yes I will try another they're slightly not easy but we'll see how can you hit the okay okay so basically the the open ID connecting to in protocol allows the wallet and the issuer to negotiate which format they're going to use so the protocol supports I saw mobile driving license format its support. ✪
David Chadwick: Sign proof by publication formats into court json-ld provide public credentials as well and so some of the group use json-ld signatures and some of the group is JWT signatures now course those two don't into work so that's why you see two tables because of the proof former the different participants were using as part of the ngi Atlantic project we wrote a profile. ✪
David Chadwick: That could be made from the very fabrication of issuing protocol and then everybody more or less use that profile with slight variations for the cryptographic algorithm and obviously for the proof performer and it turned out to be very successful as you can see and it proves that the protocol is actually very flexible because it will support you know mobile driving license as well as different forms of our family credentials I think that's one of the strengths of the. ✪
David Chadwick: Falcon Shores fishing protocol it also. ✪
David Chadwick: Way of authenticating users using the oauth protocol so that you know who is applying and you know it's not just anybody can pick up any any particular verifiable credential but after the authenticator I think that's all I wants a month if any questions I'm happy to answer. ✪
Kerri Lemoie: Thanks David one of the questions I had for you what words in the challenges you think that this group faced while implementing for the plug press. ✪
David Chadwick: Yeah the challenges were that different people that implements a different cryptographic algorithms differently ID message Etc so in order to be able to interwork different people have to do changes their implementation but they could negotiate the same set so in our own particular case we ended up supporting three different cryptographic algorithms whereas when the when the plugfest started we could only support one cryptographic algorithm so that. ✪
David Chadwick: And allowed us to talk to different different. ✪
David Chadwick: And I know somebody else altered idid method to be able to talk to to ourselves so that was that was on the experiences of the people involved the also we issued a number of change requests on the up and idea connect protocol as a result of the plugfest so that's another positive feedback that the actual experimental results showed where clarifications or omissions needed to be made to the open ID draft standard and. ✪
David Chadwick: And those most of those have been Incorporated all there are still some. ✪
David Chadwick: Issues outstanding and we now we now sort of addressing issues in the verification in preparation for plugfest 3. ✪
Kerri Lemoie: Excellent thank you David I really appreciate that. ✪
Kerri Lemoie: Is there anybody that helps to has anything they'd like to say about about working in this group or their own experiences with oid see. ✪
Kerri Lemoie: Okay when we move on to the third group here which was did Cam and I do have to apologize because I didn't have the slides and time to prepare for this morning I did get them a little while ago so I put a link to them here in the slide and I can actually going to put a link to them. ✪
Kerri Lemoie: I'm in these slides right here are some videos and demonstrations made by the did come group they are still working on some of these implementations but it is is really worth looking into is a really interesting kind of protocol that is much newer than the no i.d. see of course and be Capi probably is the second newest and then did come is the most recent. ✪
Kerri Lemoie: Some of the bullets in one of these slides because I think that you'd like to know these things about did Compass probably you haven't had much experience with it so did come messaging tells you how to use your did the sign and encrypt messages for war one or more other digits with each of the devices having different keys so it means that they did can send messages to each other you can declare it usually did point with the standard semantics you can. ✪
Kerri Lemoie: With high privacy you can verify the sender of a message you can declare and handle the schema of a message so is it very very unique way a new way to use the sidelines identifiers to communicate with each other. ✪
Kerri Lemoie: It is like I said very new and so some of the software being built for the plugfest was brand new and and it's still going to be worked on for some time and so I think we will hear more about that in the near future and I think what's great about this is that it allowed this group to really see what was needed to deliver a credentials from one did to another and see what's needed there and and I think in many ways it Advanced that work and also brought teams together to work on this. ✪
Kerri Lemoie: Or and all of that is just simply a fantastic. ✪
Kerri Lemoie: Like this even if we were only doing good time for this breakfast. ✪
Kerri Lemoie: Or anybody here that is in that group that wants to speak to this. ✪
Kerri Lemoie: This is a much smaller group I think shiny correct me or to meet you in some when I think there are only maybe four or five in this group. ✪
Dmitri Zagidulin: I'm wondering if they cease Laura clear I was wondering if I could call on him to speak to it a little bit. ✪
Kerri Lemoie: Yes nor are you available to do that. ✪
Dmitri Zagidulin: I don't see him on here okay so maybe not. ✪
<sharon_leu> That's right. Some of the participants in this group also tried OIDC.
Kerri Lemoie: Well I would say tuned on this protocol you're going to hear more about it in the near future and it's going to it's really very interesting one. ✪
Kerri Lemoie: Three chairs or anything else you'd like to say about it before I go van. ✪
Dmitri Zagidulin: No exactly exactly the same sentiment you said keep an eye on this is really interesting it it's an ambitious protocol that has some really cool communication properties and I look forward to learning more about it. ✪
Kerri Lemoie: Yeah I'm to Simoni to have something. ✪
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): Just something that that is related to decom as much as they're there wasn't in that same level of activity in this in this protocol Camp it really felt even in the internet identity Workshop that did come was very promising and there's a lot of work going into it as we speak and there's some kind of excitement to see this protocol. ✪
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): In fact I pick I picked up at iiw announcement I think would last day that apparently see Kappa Sig by is an organization very active in this space out of Switzerland had donated libraries to did Cam and I think this is a good signal because did come problem with lack some of the development tools or even playgrounds or environment that made it harder to build on it. ✪
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): so this is probably a good. ✪
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): And in a good signal for the future so we look forward for more did calm side building in the near future. ✪
Kerri Lemoie: Backwards here okay so here the time and so if you are sightseeing and maybe we can get into a little bit of a discussion these are some things that I listed as accomplishments some of you may have many more things to this on the space on your experiences what I notice is this was that there is a really an increased experiential understanding of what it would actually take tissue Beast used to wallet using available protocols. ✪
Kerri Lemoie: Meaning that we talked a lot about how it could work. ✪
Kerri Lemoie: Um when we actually started developing code and working with each other and making it happen many cases it was very seamless because of the tools that some provided and many it was you know we had other work to do no prep worms you to develop tools to make this happen learn more about doing signatures we had one group actually the participate group that develops some of the some software for Ruby. ✪
Kerri Lemoie: Things that we didn't even have before. ✪
Kerri Lemoie: This is experience understanding as you know once you try something you learn all sorts of new things and this was a great accomplishment for this without a pledge fast we wouldn't necessarily have so many vendors and individuals working together trying to figure out something that was new to so many others. ✪
Kerri Lemoie: Relationships and many of us have been working in the education credential e the system for a long time and then many others have been working in the industry see space and did space for other time and and applied class like this really brought these groups together and also brought people together who just had never met and known each other before and now we'll continue to work together and have a have already set up calls and meetings going forward and that's an incredible accomplishment too. ✪
Kerri Lemoie: Thirdly we definitely Advanced the technology. ✪
Kerri Lemoie: We made it more accessible not to say that we don't have some many more challenges there but we moved it Forward right we're building upon Giants and we're building and increasing this and we are making a lot of progress in that way and that is also something that you do in the short time span that we really spent on this is incredible and then also we reveal challenges so we had a lot of hard lessons and we we learned that what it is we need to think about next we may have. ✪
Kerri Lemoie: I've suspected that before but now we really understand. ✪
Kerri Lemoie: Of those significant challenges are. ✪
Kerri Lemoie: Before I move on to this when you see if there's anybody here who would like to jump in on that some money you first in the queue. ✪
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): All right yeah so as I was reflecting on plugfest I think there have been a few interesting positive externalities that is things that happened that were unexpected but they were positive well in some were kind of known but just to go through a list of things so it was I think one great outcome here was that you know we really brought together we showed interop across. ✪
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): two different standards development. ✪
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): W3c and one attack leveraging open badges three was just a very delightful way of bootstrapping the adoption of a new spec and your standard that is coming from one attack so that was beautiful to see happen the other point was that in the in the chappie camp what happened is that thanks to the playground we have seen other players in the chat. ✪
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): Realize that plugfest was was going on and so they just jumped in and started to issue of a Majesty who themselves I think this is an interesting unexpected outcome so we had actually more participation participation beyond the court. ✪
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): Also we introduced the new tools for collaboration which is slack I think that proved very constructive in terms of the community self organizing itself I think that is something that we may want to keep going and leverage for the future we've also developed an interesting new set of tools or the playground chappies is certainly a good. ✪
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): Interrupt but also you know we leverage work that existed the came from other projects David mentioned the profile that were developed in the ngi ngi Atlantic project you know that we're then leverage for plugfest also this plugfest created the opportunity to provide feedback and so change request both India the IDC camp but they're also have been issues logged into the. ✪
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): open badges specification. ✪
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): Great things that I think will advance the ecosystem going forward I'd say that you know this is and also last thing I would mention is that as much as most of this interrupt displayed was in like a safe environment within a playground environment there are also promising interrupt that we showed with projects that have you know there are production-ready in the are. ✪
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): Particularly one that I'm involved in is the my creds my credit is this National platform in Canada where and you know at some point all the post-secondary institutions are going to issue their digital diplomas through the platform my credit is partnering with matter and so they interrupted matter showed in this particular context really speaks to the you know the possibility of taking this kind of interpret ability to scale and in practice. ✪
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): right away so we're not just. ✪
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): Or I think we just been this something that has an impact. ✪
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): I think that was kind of my list back to you Kerry. ✪
Kerri Lemoie: Has a great list thank you Simone E Sharon you have the floor. ✪
<kerri_lemoie> Sharon_Leu
Sharon Leu: I just have one quick like accomplishment that I think is really important that I alluded to earlier is that in education and in Workforce Development A lot of people have been saying we should allow people to curate their own learning in employment records and I think that nobody has been able to make this happen outside of a closed very finite closed ecosystems and I think that you know the interoperability against Open Standards in this. ✪
Sharon Leu: Is actually going to be what makes that possible and I'm particularly excited because this has not been demonstrated before so separate from the technology but the technology enabling us to create tools that will I think we think help us address some of our social impact questions so I'm very excited about that element and I am done. ✪
Manu Sporny: Thanks so I found I mean the plugfest was fantastic it was it was really great I think this is one of the it is the most important interoperability demonstration of this year around verifiable credentials in dids one thing that was really like surprising to us in a in a really good way is we got to work with is. ✪
<deb_everhart_(credential_engine)> bravo!
Manu Sporny: That we had never heard of before and while it's that we had never heard of before in believe it or not like they were able to achieve interoperability at least with you no chappie and the chappie playground they were able to demonstrate interoperability before we even talked with them like that's a really good you know positive sign for the direction that you know these various Technologies are going. ✪
Manu Sporny: I wanted to stress the like the the notion that we had organizations that had never worked with this technology before VCS or dids and they were able to achieve build out and Achieve build out against the standards and Achieve interoperability in three to four weeks some of the other organizations that we know of that's that have been in here for a long time or able to do that as well and we were able to most importantly pull in a. ✪
Manu Sporny: Our platforms that demonstrated interoperability through things like chappie and envy Capi you know ID for so that that was also really nice to see I'm really excited about like the next plugfest and how many more you know companies and wallets and issuers in verifiers that we can pull into the mix that's it for me. ✪
Kerri Lemoie: I'm going to move on to our next time Malik beaming over here by that you can't see me because I don't have the camera on but I know that so many of us are working so hard on this and it is really just making me so happy that we're all making so much progress in the space. ✪
<sharon_leu> Thank you, Manu, and Evan, and the others at DB that worked on CHAPI playground. Would not have been nearly as easy technically without it!
Kerri Lemoie: These are some of the challenges that we encountered I'm also these are just ones that I came up with I am sure there are others that we could add to this list of others would like you themselves up but just briefly one of the primary challenges actually we had that was kind of an expensive one that we're still navigating I think we're getting close to that one edtech is a the open badges 3.0 contact changes and this wasn't a. ✪
Kerri Lemoie: Sierra Leone one Ed Tech on their own it was something that. ✪
<manu_sporny> Sharon, Happy to help! We are dedicated to this initiative! Really looking forward to the next plugfest!
Kerri Lemoie: Didn't really occur to all of us because we hadn't really operated together I'm in this kind of a coordinated way before but what happens is json-ld uses something called the context file that contains URLs and terms and the terms and the URLs linked to information about those terms and if there are any changes to those terms of the you or any added taken away or the URLs are changed then it can cause some. ✪
Kerri Lemoie: Some mismatches between issuers and wallets. ✪
Kerri Lemoie: Because it's being platforms either load in the context prior to issuing or some of them cash it so they had Lou loaded loaded a previous version and issued a version of she's a badge with that version cash then when it went to the wallet that wallet was reading say more current version of or newer version of the context or even a much older version there would be a mismatch. ✪
Kerri Lemoie: In this good Constitution signatures and so our participants were tracking down these these issues right there they're wondering why are we having all these signature errors what could it possibly be spend hours and you're trying to diagnosis until they checked it back down to the context file because you know of course like you know diagnosing crypto errors can be can be a challenging thing and so it took a while to figure that out open badges the kind exile for open badges was reverted. ✪
<nate_otto_(he/him)> Can't speak on mic to it, but the 1EdTech workgroup talked about the context changes at meeting on Thursday, understands the issues, and is within a day or two of being able to commit to a really stable context. Maybe with one more well-reviewed-and-socialized change as the spec goes final-final around February. This community should be aware of that timeline. Now: context becomes quite stable (and wrists slapped for a little bit of uncautious behavior this fall); February: final-final.
Kerri Lemoie: Where most of us were using that context file so it's still cause some problems but it alleviated most of them and now there are discussions going on about what those updates will be going forward because there still will be changes since it it is not a final spec yet so yeah we're in conversations about that and I can put a link in the chat and a little while for an issue that is listed in the GitHub repository where you can take a look and. ✪
Kerri Lemoie: Make some comments in there if you have any thoughts to that. ✪
Kerri Lemoie: And the next one was I we had a discussion about who the issuer is and the assessor for an education credential because it could be that a platform or or another body is doing the signing of the credential on behalf of the assessor so they may not always be the same same bodies and we knew that would that would be an issue so that came up a little bit in our discussions at plugfest we all know that you know user experience is something. ✪
Phil Long: +1 To Nate's comment on context file status ✪
Kerri Lemoie: Really talked a lot about how we need to bring more users in you know we are technologists in groups we are all working on this technology but we're not doing enough user research and we need more of that in the space some actual experience so that we can translate that into better usability and then lastly on my list is trust Frameworks we talked quite a bit about what those are in the space with this could be how you know we need verifiers. ✪
Kerri Lemoie: To know that the issuer's actually have the. ✪
Kerri Lemoie: I want to say permission but Authority or what have you to issue these credentials and what that means in various contexts and so that led to some other great conversations that are going on in the space about that. ✪
Kerri Lemoie: Type in the queue the queue is empty but I'm sure there are others who may want to speak to other challenges that they experienced that I did not hit yet. ✪
Manu Sporny: Yeah one of the challenges that that we hit was just communication in the plugfest and I don't think this was we couldn't have predicted the amount of like positive like the number of people that were going to participate but we found that a lot of our time at least digital bazaars time was spent kind of communicating with various implementers and trying to get them kind of aligned with what they. ✪
Manu Sporny: Trying to like teach them DCS and Ed's as things were happening we think like the bulk of that is over but there is this like in by in communication problem the slack Channel helped with it a bit but I don't know how we can improve that you know in the next go-around I think one of the challenges was making sure that we had email addresses. ✪
Manu Sporny: The kind of the I don't know managers or Executives at the company in and the people that were implementing like it felt really important to have those two people in any contact that we were doing and some of the challenge was just getting that information from the the companies that were involved like we need to talk to you about a technical thing who do we talk to about that we had to kind of discover that as we went so for the next plugfest it might help. ✪
Manu Sporny: Have a you know business contact or managerial contact in primary technical contract contact for each organization in case you need to like reach out and have a call with them or an email discussion that's it. ✪
Kerri Lemoie: Okay we are nearing oh sorry I see that somebody you are in the queue. ✪
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): Yeah just to offset - comment in terms of of the demon digital bizarre women going above and beyond you know man who spoke about the the level of say coordination that we took for for his team to build and to participate they really you know went above the requirements and. ✪
Manu Sporny: +1 That's great to hear, Simone! :) ✪
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): Work that they put in we've heard comments from participants saying exactly the opposite that in fact it was very easy for them to coordinate and through the playground they almost did not even know who was playing or or interacting with them because that particular you know tool made it very easy for them so they just could focus on the code and on the coordination so again great great work on the. ✪
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): digital bizarre team thanks a lot model you made. ✪
<julie_keane> @Manu that def helped with our project (having a tech lead and a bus lead). I organized and made sure that tech folks had stand ups when needed.
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): Very easy for others I do you invested a lot alright. ✪
Kerri Lemoie: Yeah agreed thank you so much I had Dmitry. ✪
Dmitri Zagidulin: Yes I wanted to bring up for I think our main challenge now is what to do for the next block past because we do you have an extra plug that's coming up and so we've we've done a couple of the really heavy lifting but the first first to plug paths and then we've got a couple of options from which it does we have some really good arguments from some of the implementers that. ✪
Dmitri Zagidulin: This should be pics carefully because. ✪
Dmitri Zagidulin: Participating about this isn't it's very expensive for front of the mentor and then we want to keep that in mind so. ✪
<manu_sporny> Verifying! :)
Dmitri Zagidulin: We're going to have and Sharon will say more about this but obviously we're going to continue having conversations on this I wonder if it makes sense or particular we're too close to the time to hear ideas from the crown but I just wanted to put it on the table into everyone's head start thinking about the next one all right except it. ✪
<sharon_leu> Most details of Plugfest 3 are TBD, including date, context of interop, etc.
<deb_everhart_(credential_engine)> exchange of meaningful data/payloads
<julie_keane> Oh you found it!!! Nice
Kerri Lemoie: Yeah I mean I think we do have time we have a few minutes of folks went to stay on and talked about that before we do this briefly I want to tell you that next steps we are going to publish a list of the participant videos and we're also we have a video from the demo day from RingCentral that is a pretty huge and it's videos so we're processing that and trying to figure out the best way to distribute it and also I don't have a bullet on here but we were talking about how to do education effort. ✪
Kerri Lemoie: It's at least a Jew that I would love to pick up that topic and a future call soon. ✪
Kerri Lemoie: With that why don't we open it up to discussion questions and yeah ideas about what the focus for blood class 3 should be exact yourself up we have a couple minutes left where we can do that. ✪
Kerri Lemoie: My name I will call on you please to verifying. ✪
Manu Sporny: Yeah so verifying right it's the it's the kind of feels like the obvious thing that we need to close the whole Loop to demonstrate a full and and flow so it would you know and it feels it feels like we're ready to do that at least you know with the the chappie playground and be Capi and that sort of thing so it would be nice to have the Third plugfest. ✪
Nate_Otto_(he/him): Plus 12 that I'm verifying seems like the next step in the round trip of a credential we've gotten it issued in the right format and plugfest one we've gotten it sent to the wallet and plugfest to and now may be time to send it from the wallet on to the next step in its journey and then you know like subsequent to that I think you brought up trust Registries previously there's a lot of questions about like what does it actually mean how do we rely on to understand what a credential means but I think prerequisite to all that. ✪
Kerri Lemoie: All right fortunately we can't hear David to do it. ✪
David Chadwick: Sorry I'm working on my yeah I'm working on mobile phone and it's different to laptop and finding the microphone was a bit difficult so yeah so I just wanted to report to the group that is part of the NGO Atlantic project that we're running at the moment which finishes at 1st and December we're now starting to do verification test so I can tell you the roadmap that we are planning over the next couple of weeks that God is first of all a simple verification where a request is sent from the. ✪
David Chadwick: Late and the wallet produces a very powerful presentation that makes that request and we are proposing to use the disk presentation exchange specification for that to specify the the vocab or presentation and then after that simple one we're going to introduce trust Frameworks and we're going to do that in two steps One is using the train trust framework which is which was a product of the ssf lab set of projects in Europe by frown. ✪
David Chadwick: Hopper and so we're going to put. ✪
<deb_everhart_(credential_engine)> thanks all, congrats on huge plugfest success!
David Chadwick: Both sprucing ourselves into that trust framework and then we're going to if time permits use gain now for those who don't have not heard of gain gain is another project of the up and I open ID for foundation and that is looking at connecting different trust Frameworks together because it's recognized that there are many different trust Frameworks in existence in the world in the academic community and in the commercial world and again is trying to plug them all together and it has a model for plugging them all together. ✪
David Chadwick: And this is to use a new draft standard from the open ID foundation called. ✪
David Chadwick: A federation and so we're going to try and do that and if we manage to do that it means that any anybody from any Federation if they support gain should be connection be able to connect on a global basis with anyone else so that's what that's what we're proposing for verification. ✪
Kerri Lemoie: Now that's fast and David thank you very much for sharing that that's it for our call today hope you all have a great week for those of the u.s. who are celebrating have a Happy Thanksgiving grateful for all of you very much take care. ✪