<mprorock> In IRC type “q+” to add yourself to the queue, with an optional
Limari_(DIF): Yeah I'm new to the group can you hear me okay. ✪
<harrison_tang> Hi Limari !
Limari_(DIF): Yeah so my name is Limari I'm the community manager at dif and so yeah I've been there about six months so I just want to say hello it's my first time on this call I met Harrison at iiw recently so hello everyone. ✪
<dmitri_zagidulin> yeyyy hi Limari!
<cel> hello Limari
JP: Hi my name is JP and I’m actually a freelance journalist and I’m trying to write an article about like federated social media particularly the activitypub protocol I talked to Dmitri if you guys know him he’s actually the one who told me about this call so I wanted to know more like about decentralized identifiers and like I guess the activitypub protocol or like decentralized media and stuff so yeah that’s why I’m here so I’ll just be here in the background ✪
<harrison_tang> Hi JP !!
<bumblefudge> (new wired piece about social media and geotagging, if you scroll up from the funny response from the comments section)
<harrison_tang> Thanks, Drummond
<bshambaugh> canno unmute
<phil_l_(p1)> someone's mic is on
Harrison_Tang: I think Mike might have drop off. ✪
<kaliya_identitywoman> I don't think you can have accountability without identity
<dmitri_zagidulin> the eternal search for the unmute button!
<bumblefudge> I'm with Kaliya here-- identity is necessary but insufficient for accountability :D
<kristina> If the problem is having identifiers not namespaced to the Identity Providers, in the context of what decentralized identity is trying to achieve, DIDs are not only things that solve that problem, bare keys (whatever the representation is - JWK, COSE_Key, etc) solve the same problem too. and clarifying how DIDs are better to solve this problem would help A LOT
<drummond> Also, I wanted to add that Adrian is correct — the problem they solve is accountability and ALSO *portability* — the ability to control one's social media data and relationships.
<drummond> +++1 to Dmitry's point.
<kristina> DID + VC might be powerful, but we have to be clear, they solve very different problems, especially when talking about their "applications" which is I think where MikeP is trying to get
<smagennis> Technology is NOT the limiting factor r.e. portability!!!!
<mprorock> that collect really interesting information about people
<kerri_lemoie> I can come back
<dmitri_zagidulin> please do Kerri!
<kerri_lemoie> Loud puppy here
<kim_duffy> Dmitri can you talk to the proposal more?
<dmitri_zagidulin> @Kim - sure!
TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): Wow yeah a big reason why we don't currently own our data is because we're not paying for these services and you know what we're talking about right now is not moving from server to server but rather moving from service to service and we're moving from services that other people are writing the checks for and the basis on which they're writing their checks is. ✪
TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): the data they get from us. ✪
TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): They have no incentive to develop a way for us to move from today Twitter to tomorrow twatter it's. ✪
TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): There's no gain for them. ✪
<kim_duffy> also would love to hear the perspective of anyone currently maintaining mastodon servers. Q yourself up!
TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): And in fact there's gain for them in making it harder to make that migration it was oh a decade or more ago that we tried to have an open specification for microblogging which is the terminology that got applied to Twitter and things like it it didn't work for a bunch of reasons and one of the big ones was. ✪
TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): writing those checks. ✪
TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): Microblogging was actually an open spec it's an open standard I don't think it got through full W3 process but it's out there. ✪
TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): And it's tiny because the Federation problem is large even today even with people who are actually willing to write the checks having a service that Aggregates all of the microblogs that you are trying to follow it was a thing called RSS a thing called Atom that those aggregated macro blogs. ✪
TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): And that was still difficult. ✪
TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): Aggregating microblogs is more difficult because also you want to track the comments on everything and those are also spread around so every query is really a bunch of queries and they all take time to resolve through the network this is this is a big problem to be solved and I'll leave it there. ✪
<bobwyman> If everything is a comment on something else, then perhaps we should be looking more at W3C Annotation.
<bumblefudge> Kim Duffy
<kristina> identity, or rather identifier, is what enables "surveillance capitalism" - the ability to aggregate the data around one user's identifier that is long-living
<drummond> Adrian, why do you believe we can't compete with surveillance capitalism?
<kristina> what's the security model for PUSH? how does the receiving server authenticates who is pushing?
<phil_l_(p1)> @Dmitri - you might speak to the performance differences these to comm strategies impose
<bobwyman> When there is diversity of service providers for a single service, names like "<name>@<service>" do double-duty as "advertisements" for the services and also allow users to publicize their association with a particular community.
TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): Yeah forgive me the last thing you said Drummond just scale the way Twitter or Facebook does is throw more machines at it whether they're physical or virtual and they're mostly physical at this point which is not a cheap proposition scaling to the web is a big challenge trying to provide a service that's available. ✪
TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): to everybody all the time. ✪
<orie> lets add protocol buffers too... better to be inclusive /s
TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): Is semi solved but the solution again is a bunch of money and a bunch of hardware and the more that people talk about individuals doing this for themselves gets back to the priesthood of the sis op and and do you know enough about the operating system and the hardware and oh the security things that come in with firewalls and the. ✪
TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): List goes on and on. ✪
TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): Asking everyone to be there on sis op is heavy and I question whether that's going to be really the way to go. ✪
<dmitri_zagidulin> also yeyy solid!
<davidm> bittorrent and other media sharing networks didn't have that overhead and were wildly popular
TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): The mode the moral code behind solid is the freedom to run your own but it doesn't mandate that you do but the way most people are building that thing the standards that are underlying the solid project they do basically assume that people will be running their own and that's I think that's going to be a big hill in the way. ✪
TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): as far as. ✪
<dmitri_zagidulin> which, incidentally, there's interest in the Solid community to support DIDs, as well
<orie> imagine trying to survive without credit... thats what trying to be a hardcore ssi player is like.
TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): The web of accountability or the accountable web or the blamable web or something like that there is in existence today and it's been there for a while the Credible web community group which is trying to answer the questions of what are the questions that need to be solved in order to make the web credible in order to make it easier to ferret out false posts and misleading posts and even if they’re. ✪
TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): trying to be truthful. ✪
<dmitri_zagidulin> orie - credit?
<drummond> I totally agree that 99.9% of the population will not run their own servers.
<orie> credit ~= trust a server operator.
TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): Because they were based on somebody else's misleadingness how do you deal with that stuff and sort of the Baseline of everything is sign everything I can't sign my Twitter feed I can't sign the individual post there it's just too small I can sign all my e-mails and that's semi useful because then we have mail clients that don't necessarily handle a signature on it but that's the only verified piece that's there. ✪
TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): that's available is verifiable credentials are based. ✪
TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): On signing the things. ✪
TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): It's a big big Tangled knot I think one of the the alternate social groups social networks that's trying to get out there is called gordian and gordian is about a knot that is basically untiable untiable it is perpetual and that's sort of where I think we're going to be for a while. ✪
TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): that's it for now. ✪
<tallted> a couple things that may be of interest for later...
<orie> The irony of the gordion knot is the alexander the great solved it, by cutting it.
<nate_otto_(he/him)> Sysops evolution to "site reliability engineering" creates some really exciting job descriptions.
<bobwyman> We shouldn't be designing systems that require you to become a sysop in order to enjoy the benefits of the system. (i.e. it should be possible to build a distinct community without having to be the sysop for that community.)
<adam> There can be many products and services for the Fediverse, including a sysop service.
<paul_fuxjaeger> thanks so much for that effort Dmitri!
<bshambaugh> I thought that the growth of Bitcoin and Web3 was built on F.O.M.O, and greed. What other incentives are there?
<bumblefudge> idunno, say what you will about bluesky it is a DWN/DID-based pubsub mechanism...
<orie> Web5 is Mastodon LD right?
<bumblefudge> ^other way around
<dmitri_zagidulin> @Orie - YESSSS
<kaliya_identitywoman> Thanks for the conversation!
<kim_duffy> Thanks all!
<dmitri_zagidulin> thanks mike!!
<econnell> Thank you - great conversation!
<limari_(dif)> Thank you, it was great to attend and educational
<adam> Thanks all
<rishi> no that was a mistake :)
<mprorock> there is nothing new under the sun ;)
<tallted> ( we're at closing time )
<mprorock> que closed
<mprorock> *queue - man i can't type or spell or function today
JP: Yeah can you guys hear me okay so just to make sure before like I say something when you say dids you mean like decentralized identifiers or just like persistent or can be verified across like whatever website that ✪
<drummond> Bob is SO right. SMTP email came out of nowhere to completely displace the 800 lb gorilla email services of their time (AOL, MCI, Compuserve)
<tallted> "Chief Twit" was a (surprisingly?) apt appellation...
<bumblefudge> CCG thread!
JP: One thing that I like heard about like as a concern was some guys’ blog I forgot his name and he also I don’t think really understood activitypub as much as I wish he would’ve but like one thing that he brought up was that like it’s the idea that like if people have your identifier like let’s say that you’re in a federated like network or whatever and like all of these I guess these instances have your identifier if you do something that’s like really controversial, like they could like strategically I guess like block you from the whole network like based on that so I think there’s like a concern about like how like decentralized identifiers can like be used against like its users ✪