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VC for Education Task Force

Transcript for 2023-01-30

<kerri_lemoie> Hello all - we'll get started a little after 11.
<deb_everhart_(credential_engine)> good day everyone!
<phil_l_(p1)> Morning VC-EDU community
Our Robot Overlords are scribing.
Kerri Lemoie: Everyone happy Monday welcome to the January 30th Verifiable Credentials for Education task force call today we are going to have going to be talking about CHAPI - Manu Sporny is here from Digital Bazaar and he's going to walk us through what CHAPI is and how it works how it's been used so far he's got a great presentation for us and then this is one of the topics I types of topics we'd like to continue to cover.
Kerri Lemoie: Edu because we know that everybody is trying to understand how all of this works this is one of those calls specifically so if you've never heard of CHAPI before this is definitely the call for you and if you have heard of it I expect you learn something new today too.
Kerri Lemoie: Hey so to us.

Topic: IP Note

Kerri Lemoie: Get us going here the first thing is the IP note for w3c which is that if you are going to make any if you're putting them in making any substitute contributions to any of the standards then you should sign up to be a member and and join the ccg this is just a community call so you don't need to do that but if you need to do that the links are in the agenda that I put in the chat.

Topic: Call Notes

Kerri Lemoie: Call notes all of these calls.
Kerri Lemoie: And we have a robot transcriber as you can see in the left hand side and the chat and it does its best to understand us and then we try to correct it as we go but that's how we keep track of minutes for for these calls to the folks who can't make it to the meetings can look this up later or any of us could reference it later we use a cue system in these calls and that means we type the letter Q like this in the chat like I'm doing right now and I will add you to a queue and then if you.
Kerri Lemoie: Want to be removed from the key you can type q-.
Kerri Lemoie: And if you.
Kerri Lemoie: To something directly that someone is hacking about it's helpful to get you to go to q and then put in the topic or whatever you'd like to say whatever it's in relation to because then the person moderating the call on knows maybe when to pull you into the order of the conversation okay.

Topic: Introductions & Reintroductions

Kerri Lemoie: About 34 people here in the college or anyone here today that would like to make an introduction and tell us more about why they're here and what they're working on or reintroduction even if you've been here before.
Kerri Lemoie: Greg you are in the queue.
Greg Bernstein: Hi I'm Gregg Bernstein I've been working more on networking standards in the past but now I've been working on more the security Suites associated with VC credentials and I'm particularly interested in getting BBS signatures along particularly for educational type of credentials.
Kerri Lemoie: Okay thank you thanks for the introduction welcome Susan.
Kerri Lemoie: See you.
Susan_Stroud: I appreciate it yes I'm Susan's drought I'm a technologist and founder and currently a student at MIT working through the blockchain activities and our efforts to really equip veterans with the information and digital tools that they need to successfully transition into civilian life has actually led me to this particular forms I'm very interested I have read through some of the past nodes and looking forward to learning more in the days and weeks to come thank you.
Susan_Stroud: I would love that thank you.
Kerri Lemoie: Thank you Susan I actually am also I am my name's Kerri Lemoie I work at MIT at the digital credential Consortium so we should talk more at some point fill you in on these things. Colin you have the floor.
<sharon_leu> @Susan_Stroud, I'm working on a veterans transition project, too!
Colin_Reynolds,_Ed_Design_Lab: Hey thanks Gary Susan of feel like we should tattoo just want to say thanks to everyone here that was attended the experience you project kickoff event last week I just wanted to throw that out in front of the group again to say that this is an initiative through the US chamber Foundation T3 Innovation at work in a Design Lab to take unstructured learning data and structured into basically be seized and helped populate all yours using.
Colin_Reynolds,_Ed_Design_Lab: a I so we're in the team formation process right now.
Colin_Reynolds,_Ed_Design_Lab: And I can put a link in the chat to more information about that but just wanted to say thanks to those that attended and those that weren't able check out the link that we're still kind of forming teams and have a lot of interest but yeah the VC edu Community is definitely something that's helped to inform this whole process and yeah want to keep everybody just up to speed with it.
Kerri Lemoie: That's great Colin thank you.
Kerri Lemoie: Is anybody else anything to say any introductions or things.
<jake> Where’s the link for the recording of that meeting or how to apply
<kerri_lemoie> Announcements & Reminders
<kerri_lemoie> register for IIW:
Kerri Lemoie: You are so often do announcements so the next part of our call is anybody have any other announcements that they would like to make one that I will I will put in here right now is for registration for the internet identity workshop and is open so I'm going to put the link to their website and the chap.
Kerri Lemoie: And what is it.
Kerri Lemoie: This this is an excellent unconference where a lot of work happens and you get to meet a lot of people in our community so I highly suggest going for able to Kalia speaking of which you have the floor sure.
Kaliya Young: Thanks for sharing I also wanted to add we're working with folks in the Asia Pacific region on a similar to iiw but totally independent event happening in Thailand at the beginning of March so if you have colleagues that are in the APAC region.
Kaliya Young: We've never had.
Kaliya Young: Come to iaw or just want to connect with folks working on digital identity in the region this is a great opportunity so please share it.
Kerri Lemoie: Thanks Claire mommy you have to Florida.
<manu_sporny> Demonstration of Support for EdDSA Cryptosuite Adoption into VCWG:
Manu Sporny: Thanks Gary um real quick announcement about something happening in the verifiable credentials working group this week we sent out a demonstration of support for the Edwards curve crypto sweet this is this is this is one of the crypto sweets that was used very heavily in the jmf plugfest to plugfest there were over 20 companies that demonstrated interop there.
Manu Sporny: There too.
Manu Sporny: Official work item into the standards group we needed to demonstrate kind of support for it and there's a letter there with a lot of signatures on it many from you that went out but the link I put into the chat Channel if you were not able to get your name on that letter to support descriptive sweet as a global standard just responding to that email is another way for you to kind of show your support for the crypto sweet again this this.
Manu Sporny: Crypto Suite is.
Manu Sporny: What we use to demonstrate interop in the the plugfest to it is also the crypto sweet that is being pushed into production across the u.s. for a number of retail use cases like digital age verification so if you would like to see you know this kryptos we'd become a global standard please send an email you know demonstrating your support for that script is sweet.
Manu Sporny: The first item second item is that the verifiable credentials working group is having a face-to-face meeting in Miami in about 14 days I think there are about what is it something like 12 people in the 15 people attending in person 20 people total if you're not in the working group you can request a be there as an observer you contact the chairs to do that.
Manu Sporny: It will be a three day.
Manu Sporny: In the middle of the week Tuesday Wednesday Thursday that's it.
<kerri_lemoie> VC WG
Kerri Lemoie: Thank you manu I'll put a link to the VC working group and the check two books and take a look at that.

Topic: Main Topic - Intro to CHAPI with Manu Sporny

Kerri Lemoie: Hey our queue is empty I don't see any other announcements or introductions but feel free to jump into the queue and do that at any time during the call if something comes to mind but first what we're going to do now is I like to do some on you I was just speaking to give us a presentation and didn T just about chappie which is a credential Handler API makes monitors your coming here today to do this.
<colin_reynolds,_ed_design_lab> @Jake - the resources are getting posted on the T3 Network Hub today but if you send me an email, I can forward ALL the resources from the kickoff event
Manu Sporny: Of course always happy to thank you for the invite let me go ahead and share my screen for those of you that I have not met yet my name is Manu Spore knee I am the lead editor on the verifiable credential specification the decentralized identifier specification data integrity and a variety of other kind of verifiable credential related specifications.
Manu Sporny: Is that w3c.
Manu Sporny: This work back in 2012 issue I think and it's great to see it grow into what it is today so and and super awesome that like the VC edu group exists and is so vibrant you know I think these calls are now bigger than the main calls which is which is really awesome to see that kind of traction in the education space.
Manu Sporny: Okay so.
Manu Sporny: Talk about how how we move credentials around the ecosystem so specifically how does somebody go to a website and get a credential from that website into their digital wallet how do they hold it in their digital wallet and manage it in their digital wallet and then how do they then go to a totally different website that wants a verifiable credential from them and how did they deliver that.
<colin_reynolds,_ed_design_lab> @Jake + all - Here is a link to the Experience You [Public] project folder with the project paper and call for participation and all the video recordings:
Manu Sporny: Anshel to the other website this is just one technique.
Manu Sporny: That can do this the credential Handler API chappie there are other technologies that will you know get into in a bit but that's basically the gist of the talk today and it's meant to be kind of like a high-level introduction please stop me as we go I'll try and pause every couple of slides to ask if there are any questions again you know this is meant to be a high level.
Manu Sporny: All presentation so just highlight.
Manu Sporny: Answer totally totally fine inappropriate okay so let's let's get into it the.
<bob_sopko> I'm new to this meeting. We are Separately, I'm involved since the beginning with top level domain
Manu Sporny: Chappie stands for again the credential Handler API it is kind of a browser-based technology to help us move verifiable credentials around and this is the only picture that you really need to understand to understand what chap he's doing right what we have here on the left is verifiable credential issuer like the university community college you know what have you.
Manu Sporny: And they're going to issue credentials into.
<greg_bernstein> Not seeing the slides?
Manu Sporny: All it that is controlled by an individual a student or a teacher or a professor of some kind and then they're going to hold a digital credentials in that digital wallet and then their going to move it to a verifier so a job hiring site an employer of some kind another University it's on so forth and this is basically kind of the.
<phil_l_(p1)> Also not seeing the slide
Manu Sporny: That you know is in verifiable credentials you've got issuers if that holders and you've got verifiers chappie is the thing that moves the credentials between these entities in the ecosystem so these little purple boxes that you see with the little arrows back and forth this type of communication this channel of communication that's chappie so that is effectively what we're talking about today thank you.
Manu Sporny: For sharing the slides Kari can anyone else I guess not.
Manu Sporny: You know Philly okay all right.
Kerri Lemoie: They are looking okay for me here so I think folks who can't see might want to follow along in the Google Doc.
<jake> Thank you Colin
Manu Sporny: Okay thanks okay so this is it like at a high level this is it this is all there really is to chappie will dive down into the details but like this is basically at a high level so let me let me pause here are there any questions at a high level about kind of what we're talking about here it's just a mechanism to move credentials between the entities and in the verifiable credentials ecosystem.
Kerri Lemoie: Nothing so far
Manu Sporny: Okay all right so what does chappie do chappie has a couple of features in it and again Chappy's something that is just there in your browser right it's something that does something in your browser you as an individual really don't have to think about it it's the developers that have to worry about it and making sure that they included in their websites that you as an individual just showing up to a website that's chappie.
Manu Sporny: Able just get to start using it right so the.
<kerri_lemoie> Page 3 of slides
Manu Sporny: That chappie does is it enables digital wallet registration what that means is that we presume well we know that they're going to be many different digital wallets in the world in what we're trying to do with chappie is to make sure that people have a choice in the digital wallets that they pick we don't want large big Tech tip effectively in like push their digital Wallets on people and not really give them a choice we want individuals to find the digital wallet.
Manu Sporny: Wallets that work best for them go to those websites and then allow them to.
Manu Sporny: Digital wallets with the web browser so this is the first thing that chappie does is digital wallet registration on the left here the animations probably better in if you look at the slides life but the diagram on the left here is showing the chappie dialogue that says hey this website this digital wallet website would like to manage your credentials manage credentials on your behalf is that okay with you yes no in this dialog works very much.
Manu Sporny: Much like allowing a website access to your camera.
Manu Sporny: Site access to your geolocation you're basically saying I want this website to manage my digital credentials for me right and you can click that button many times on many different websites you can have many different digital wallets so the image on the right here shows the chappie choose a wallet dialogue in you will see multiple entries in here from multiple different types of wallets so these are the wallets that we used in the jmf plugfest you can see you know.
Manu Sporny: This wallet learned.
Manu Sporny: Charles laners wallet teacher wallet and just another demo while it's so these are all wallets that have registered with chappie so that when you go to do an operation like storing a credential or presenting a credential you will get an option to pick from among a number of different wallets so that's the first thing that chappie does the first feature that chappie has is it lets you register while it's so that.
Manu Sporny: You can pick from them later on.
Manu Sporny: Me pause there any questions on wallet registration.
<utxodario> q Question - "Manage credentials" ... manage particular creds or ALL creds ??
<pl> How does this get around the NASCAR problem?
Kerri Lemoie: Money I have a few questions but I wanted to make one clarification is that tell me if I'm wrong here but I think I might is that if I would register my wallet so it's not on this website it's just that I have this wallet and I would allow this well at tiebacks you access to chappie playground.
Kerri Lemoie: Okay I just.
Kerri Lemoie: It doesn't go at a playground and see a list of all it's instead they're all registered in the way like someone personally so you this would be say your your choice of your wallet that you're showing in the screenshot.
Manu Sporny: Yes that's right it's personalized to you it is your selection not the web site selection right so it's it's so Kerry is going to have a different set of wallets from like what I have in let's say that Phil is going to have a different set of wallets then me so this dialogue is basically showing you your wallets the ones that you prefer not the ones that the website prefers.
Manu Sporny: Dimitri I see you're here on the queue.
Dmitri Zagidulin: To could carry these into it I wanted to clarify that as well when we say register with chappie we don't mean register with Chad be like the organization or anything like that it's each wallet registers with each browser and in fact with the combination of user browser so when when Manu and Terry say that it's it's your list so when you first go to any website.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Site that uses credential Handler API.
<pl> Thanks for the clarification Dmitri - that's the perspective I was looking for
Dmitri Zagidulin: Empty because you the user in your browser has not encountered any wall instead of asking permission so just to clarify things.
Manu Sporny: Yeah that's an excellent clarification and now I'm thinking that I probably should have put a slide before this that explains how things work today so the the way things work today is like think about log in with Google or log in with Facebook when you go to a website they tell you what you're allowed to use to login right so that website basically says I support log in with Google you know login with.
Manu Sporny: Facebook log in with whatever and those are the only choices you get.
Manu Sporny: What chappie does is the opposite we prefer that the individual comes with the set of like digital wallets that they have in the website you know when it pops up the dialogue it shows them the things that they prefer not what the website prefers the one thing that we're concerned about one future that kind of chap he's concerned about and is trying to prevent is this future where effectively you go to website and they say you can use your.
Manu Sporny: Apple wallet or your.
Manu Sporny: That's it right so we're trying to empower individuals to have while it choice and that's kind of the whole thing behind chappie really good clarifications thank you Carrie and Dimitri okay I'm going to go on to the next item the next item has to do with selecting a digital wallet so when you go to do something like you go to a website and.
Manu Sporny: A website.
Manu Sporny: Through let's say you go to an issuer like a university and you go through a class and you're ready to pick up that credential what you earned during that class and putting in digital wallet at that point chappie is invoked it shows this wallet selection screen and says you know this website wants to store credentials which wallet do you want to put them in right that's effectively the question that chappies asking and then you select one of your wallets the same thing kind of.
Manu Sporny: It happens when you go to a verifier site so let's say you go.
Manu Sporny: And a job hiring site and it wants proof that you you know have a certain level of Education it'll say hey this website wants credential from you it wants an education credential from you of some kind again the chappie dialog pops up you select you know a wallet and appropriate wallet and then it takes you to this kind of screen on the right so meaning that it.
Manu Sporny: It takes you through.
Manu Sporny: Of like selecting the appropriate credential the the animation that you see on the right here is kind of a demonstration of both sending a credential in receiving a credential actually let me make sure that that's true.
Manu Sporny: This is credentialed pick up so someone has gone to in this is the US citizenship and Immigration Services kind of a demo they're using a digital wallet they go to the website they're picking up their additional permanent resident card chappie pops up ask you which while you want to put it in the user selects a wallet and then the wallet gives them a little more information about what they're about to store so the wallet pops up and this is the other really important thing with chappie is that we make sure that we.
Manu Sporny: / All of kind of the rendering and flow to the wallet so the wallet.
Manu Sporny: Help the individual make the best decision for them so so one of the things that's involved there is like Gathering consent so the wallet here is basically saying hey this website wants to store this digital permanent resident card why don't you take a look at it and make sure this is something that you want to put in your wallet right and so the user kind of expands it they take a look at it and they go yeah that looks pretty reasonable and they click store in and do that.
Manu Sporny: You can imagine scenarios.
<pl> So the wallet renders the card's details BEFORE accepting into their wallet. Very useful to have that 'check before store' feature
Manu Sporny: Are the wallet might go hey I don't know anything about this site and they're asking you for your permanent resident card or they're asking you for your credit card or your driver's license and you can go ahead and do this but I don't know who this website is right or the digital wallet can go hey like there's a big problem here like this website is a known you know fishing site.
Manu Sporny: In your about to send your digital credentials.
Manu Sporny: We suggest that you don't do that so there or the you know the wallet can do something like hey they're asking for proof of education and you've got like these three different ways you could send it over you know we suggest you pick this one which is you know protects your privacy the most or this one which you know shows you in the best light or you know things like that so the the point here is that.
Manu Sporny: We want to make sure.
Manu Sporny: When an individual picks a wallet that the individual has a relationship with that wallet they kind of know how it works and how it displays information to them and so we don't presume meaning chappie doesn't presume that the user interface should be rendered in any specific way make sure that the wallet gets to show the individual you know those other screens so that's basically wallet selection it's a part of chappie it's.
Manu Sporny: Built-in it's built into the into the.
Manu Sporny: Kind of flow of receiving credentials and presenting credentials let me pause there see if there any questions before I move on.
Manu Sporny: Yes yes it is possible in I mean this is you know one of those areas of debate and concern right so there have been a number so the answer your question David is yes that's completely possible if the website allows you to issue in the two different wallets or 22 different you know identifiers it's you can do that right chappie doesn't get in the way of that happening what has come up over the.
Manu Sporny: Ears is should.
Manu Sporny: Should we always display all the wallets in chappie like is there a way for us to say hey this website wants for example a permanent resident card from you you've got five wallets but there's only one of them that has a permanent resident card in there so shouldn't we make the interface easier or simpler by just showing one option because there's only one wallet that can actually answer the question that the.
Manu Sporny: That's an open topic right it's also kind of open of you know some of these wallets have this concept of like profiles or different like personas in should we expose that in the interface you know or not the good news here is that you know chappie allows us to kind of iterate through these various ways of doing things in those are very much kind of you know in the future we have to.
Manu Sporny: You know we.
Manu Sporny: That you know more kind of deployment feedback before we start implementing some of those features and some of those features are not without privacy drawbacks right the more you are able to interrogate the wallet or the more websites able to interrogate the wallet about what kind of credentials you might have in there the more the less privacy preserving we are right and so we tend to optimize on privacy first meaning never expose anything to the website that's a.
Manu Sporny: Asking for information you know they.
Manu Sporny: Just ask a question in from their point of view from the websites point of view it goes into You Know The Ether which is chappy and then chappie takes the question to the wallet and then the wallet decides how it wants to respond and then sends the response back to the website there so there are a lot of really interesting questions here around the interface here in what's the easiest thing to kind of show in youth.
Manu Sporny: Yes so today the second thing that you said is what we'd have to do they would be two transactions one to deliver your you know ID and the other one to deliver the the education credential from the other wallet clearly that's not ideal in we're trying to figure out if there is a better way of kind of collecting credentials from a variety of.
Manu Sporny: Of different wallets and sending them over in one.
Manu Sporny: It's very much I think in the active area of kind of like research right now.
Manu Sporny: Yeah that's exactly right yeah and and and I think that that that issue ends up becoming much more exacerbated when we have digital wallets when you have the concept of like you have many different credentials right but yeah.
Manu Sporny: Yep yep yep exactly yeah so there are trade-offs yeah excellent question David and their trait they're absolutely trade-offs here right the trade-off is that if we do this in multiple transactions then the flows more confusing or it can be more challenging to the individual right and so there have been suggestions like you know is there a way for us to aggregate the requests across a variety of different wallets in the amino the answer is yes of course it's technology there is a way.
Manu Sporny: A to do that but then we make the protocols more.
<pl> You could have different credential wallets for your different personas, and credentials related to them. That's actually useful, at least as David notes, at this stage.
Manu Sporny: For developers and then we you know could could have privacy implications as a result of that it's harder to develop in the ecosystem and so on and so forth so I think you know us as a community figuring out the right way to do that is still you know many years away but great question David okay so this is digital wallet selection okay so the other thing to understand about chappy is that.
Manu Sporny: We were trying to go for a solution that worked in every browser.
Manu Sporny: That that that exists right meaning that if you have a modern browser chappy works. It is implemented as what is called a polyfill and a polyfill is a bunch of JavaScript code that a web developer puts into their website so for example a university that wanted to issue verifiable credentials would have to include this one line of this one line of JavaScript in there.
Manu Sporny: Are University website a.
Manu Sporny: Site that would want to receive verifiable credentials would have to include this one you know line of JavaScript and and of course right right against the the credential Handler API to store or receive credential so the point here is that for individuals they don't have to install a browser plug-in they don't have to use a very specific browser no matter what browser they're on it should work the downside to that.
Manu Sporny: That is that we are limited in what we can do.
Manu Sporny: As our technology and chappie has become kind of caught up in this whole like transition away from third-party cookies so for those of you that may not be aware third-party cookies are used by the ad industry to track people as they go from website to website they're viewed as kind of this really bad toxic thing on the web because it is what allows you know adds to kind of track what you're doing what you're looking at as you go from from site to site.
Manu Sporny: Site so all the bread.
Manu Sporny: Manufacturers are trying to eliminate third-party cookies and they're trying to put in Alternatives the good news here is that we saw this coming many years ago with chappie and chappie gracefully degrades when we don't have access to third-party cookies so what you see on the left here is the kind of fully integrated experience in chappie meaning that when you're using your web browser this screen just pops up and it's nice and integrated into.
Manu Sporny: Whatever workflow you're in you pick your wallet in you do.
Manu Sporny: Are things right the there's a bunch of Technology on how this works right there's a lot of kind of Technology gymnastics happening behind the scenes to make this work but sometimes but one of the things that we use or third-party cookies and when we don't have third-party cookies we have to fall back we have to do what's called degrading gracefully in the browser space so what and by degrade what we mean is we can no longer show this window in line.
Manu Sporny: We have to do a pop-up and when we do a pop up.
Manu Sporny: All of us.
Manu Sporny: This weird site called off and not I owe this is the chappie mediator site the UI is still the same inside the window but the window pops up right so on a mobile device it's not too bad of an experience in fact you kind of expect it on a mobile device but on like a desktop it's a bit weird right and so we're working with folks like Google's Chrome team to figure out how to get better native support for chappie but.
Manu Sporny: The point here is.
Manu Sporny: Chappie works on all modern browsers and so if you need to move credentials from point A to point B in your in the browser environment chappies going to work fairly well for you real quick we use chappy during the jobs for the future plugfest we demonstrated 81 different interoperability combinations a different wallets five web-based wallets in three native mobile apps so.
Manu Sporny: Chappie works for both web-based model.
Manu Sporny: It's a native mobile apps we integrated with a bunch of different issuers and we'll see a demo on how this works later on but this is kind of the list of companies that demonstrated interop using chappie in just to go through kind of you know the three steps again just to review so chappie allows credential Handler registration so it allows a website to say I want to be a digital wallet for you and manage your credentials.
Manu Sporny: What's the code.
Manu Sporny: He requests that a request to be a credential Handler for you you click allow or block and then when you click allow the credential Handler it's ready and that's the only thing you have to do to register when you go to store something you as the individual go to a website you go through some process that results in a verifiable credential that could be issued that website then uses.
Manu Sporny: Happy it makes an API call to.
Manu Sporny: Say I want to store this credential at which point your digital wallet pops up shows you an interface gets your consent and if you click yes I want to store it the website then gets a response back saying that the credential was stored successfully and if if you say no I don't want to store at the website gets a notification that you did not store the credential for some reason for whatever reason you know details go back to the website other than that credential was installed.
Manu Sporny: ORD the third thing is presentation so again pretty much.
Manu Sporny: You go to a website the website requests a bunch of verifiable credentials from you your digital wallet pops up and you select the credentials that you want to send over potentially and you know privacy-preserving ways the wallet gets consent from you and then it's sent to the the website in all of these flows it is really important to understand that the website that's requesting the information from you gets.
Manu Sporny: Zero visibility.
Manu Sporny: Your wallet or what you're doing in your wallet or any of that stuff so that's kind of it's really important again like we optimize very aggressively for privacy in none of your information is shared until you know you provide consent of some kind Nate I see you're on the queue.
Nate Otto: Yeah thanks I have a question about the scope of what a website can request at this step in the process within the education space we have I mean we have notably the open badges standard and I'll open badges credentials share the same type so if a website is trying to ask for a certain you know open badge that meets us more complex characteristic they probably don't.
Nate Otto: I want to just ask for hey give me any open badge you have.
Nate Otto: What types of scenarios are imagined within chappy for the type specific query Inge and how can other more specific communities layer onto this to enrich the possibility for how we understand like what different types of queries are possible when it's all open batch type credentials.
Manu Sporny: Got it yeah that's an excellent question Nate so so chappie is agnostic to the quarian response format chappies kind of like a dumb Communication channel it doesn't try to get in between you know the the language that's spoken from the requesting website and the digital wallet the short answer to your question today is there's a specification called the verifiable presentation request spec VPR.
Manu Sporny: In VPR has this mechanism in it.
<kerri_lemoie> Verifiable Presentation Request:
Manu Sporny: And so what the website typically does is the website goes like the website that's requesting information says I want to see a credential that looks like this and it's a fairly freeform thing meaning it can say I want to see a credential that has a type of open badge and I want to see an achievement type of you know X or I want to see it have a field with a certain.
Manu Sporny: Date or I.
Manu Sporny: Have you know an issuer of a certain type so the short answer is the thank you Carrie for linking the PPR Square spec in there the VP R-Spec has mechanician mechanisms to do that kind of querying but I have to definitely warn people like it is very early days like query by example what we're trying for there is just like a really simple.
Manu Sporny: The mechanism for Developers.
Manu Sporny: And it may become you know badges may become like really really complex like you know learning records like full lers you know querying for like you know something in an alley are might be like a really complex query so I don't want to convey that like this is a solved Problem by any stretch of the imagination like today we can do like really simple checking against types in certain types of fields in I'm pretty certain like.
Manu Sporny: That'll work for like.
Manu Sporny: Use cases but it will not work for like a hundred percent so chappie is agnostic to the query format there are other presentation request you know formats out there like presentation exchange and there's no reason chappie can't also support presentation exchange as as a query you know response protocol so so hopefully Nee that that answered your question like we can potentially do the type of selection that you want to do today with verifiable.
Manu Sporny: Sanitation request but I don't think.
<kerri_lemoie> Presentation Exchange:
Manu Sporny: I don't think it's ever going to be a 100% solution I'm hoping that we don't have to go to like a super complex graph query language right or like people writing SQL queries or or unstructured database queries to get the data like to get the credentials that they need but if if that were to happen chappie can support it as a different query type did.
Manu Sporny: That answer your question.
Nate Otto: Yeah absolutely that's a good explanation of kind of the state of the art and I imagine we will see a wide variety of levels of support across different wallets and so nobody should expect to be able to have very rich querying and accurate responses broadly anytime soon cast a wide.
Manu Sporny: Yeah that's that's right yeah I think that's absolutely right I think that the best thing that we can do as a community is like maybe start depending on type data a little bit more so that you know so that people can be more accurate you know when the issue something and when they when they request something.
Manu Sporny: And it's Dimitri I think you're on the Queue next.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Yeah I wanted to say a few more words about the clearing part so as not to mention its early days and well the query is limited at the moment we essentially have all of the query parameters that were likely to need developers mean you can request by type so you can say give me an open badge credential but you can also say give me some bad we could ensure we.
Dmitri Zagidulin: With this particular achievement you can see.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Worse for example you can say I only want credentials from this issuer you can filter by credential subject ID so basically any sort of fields that you can picture in the in your credential how going Clary can contain that.
Dmitri Zagidulin: A couple of really interesting other flexible things that the query can contain such as.
Dmitri Zagidulin: User if you don't have any wallet registered with the browser here are some where you might want to look right so we it has a nice.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Warding workflow where users have no idea what job you have doesn't have a wallet or anything like that the first time they come to a website that ask for a credential they can on board onto a wallet right off of there so come to the university or some verifier and it says give me your class completion credential.
Dmitri Zagidulin: But I don't have a wallet.
Dmitri Zagidulin: I haven't gone and gotten the credential the the same query that is asking for the wallet can say okay if you don't have it here are some wallets that we the verify recommend but you can your few free to use other one but here are some the start you with the go get a wallets for the credential and come back and forth on sequential the other thing that chappy does that Mama hasn't come beside too much in this.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Presentation but I.
Dmitri Zagidulin: I think is.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Youthful if that it does did authentication so since it can ask for any sort of credential it can ask for what we think of as traditional verifiable credential but other things that it also can ask for is login and authentication and permission potential now that's an advanced topic we can go over that in another in another call but just.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Just keep it in the back of your mind.
Dmitri Zagidulin: This also enabled really nice really nicelogin flows and lastly what I already mentioned is that chappy itself is what's called a dumb pipe does not does not care what goes into the request.
Dmitri Zagidulin: And so there are several query specification of the you can include one of them do their final presentation request very linked to get the one from this presentation exchange and any others as they as they emerge in the community so it's important to remember that this.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Yeah the credential Handler API mechanism can be used with all of the apis that are currently in the wallet ecosystems that could be used with DC API using Wallace it can be used with open-ended connects family of wallet and potentially can be used with did come back early.
Manu Sporny: Yep L all excellent points Dimitri absolutely Phil I think you're on the Queue next.
Kerri Lemoie: So before you go outside and tripped I just want to keep an eye on the time and know that Manu does have a demo and I want to make sure we can fit that into okay just keep an eye on it thanks yes.
PL: Right and I can you hear can you hear me okay and I think David maybe first but David you want to go first.
Kerri Lemoie: You're the only person in the queue right now.
PL: Okay okay I just wanted to clarify and because I think this is also the case and I want to make sure I'm right when the request is made by let's say the relying party for a particular credential filtered by whatever criteria are looking for the user that has the wallet holder can accept or not that joy that choice of response and can alter the response by putting in the credential they would like to share themselves is that an.
PL: accurate statement.
Manu Sporny: Yes I don't know if you mean like if the website just says I want an open badge credential and it's not specific about the type the individuals wallet is going to basically show them all they're open badges credentials in the individual can basically be like oh I want to send this one because I know what the site wants is that was that the question Phil.
PL: That's that's one variation of the question the other is they request a credential with achievement X I don't want to send them the one with achievement expects I want to send them one with achievement why because I think it speaks more to my ability to respond to let's say the job requirements of the position I'm applying for.
Manu Sporny: That's interesting um in theory yes I don't know any wallets that allow that kind of like change in selection today but you're absolutely right that you know why shouldn't people be allowed to do that right if they want to.
PL: I'm specifically thinking of things like someone says I'd like to see your full transcript I actually have a subset of my transcript which has the courses relevant to what I think the job is and not the courses that also include some you know things that are outside the domain of the job and which in my view might actually not be well received by the recipient and so I want to give him the one I want to show they can also say I you know I want the whole thing anyway and then it's my choice to decide.
PL: to complyor not.
Manu Sporny: That's right yeah yeah and you know my expectation in these scenarios is that at least as an ecosystem chappie and most of the wall it's optimized for privacy and individual consent and choice in that all lines up with what you're saying right thanks Phil okay real quick to the demo let me see can everyone see my screen right now.
<kayode_ezike> Interesting point Phil! I would imagine that the site should design the query such that it is inclusive of as many qualifying credentials as possible.
Manu Sporny: Okay alright so the demo is basically I mean you know it's really kind of simple and straightforward I've got a wallet here this is the various wallet and it's got three credentials in it a permanent resident card alumni credential be ticket and then you know I can click on something to see the you know the credential in detail I also have this learned Card Wallet up and learned card did a fantastic job you know of integrating.
Manu Sporny: Is it all the other wallet vendors of integrating.
Manu Sporny: As you can see learn cards interface for their wallet is quite different from chappies in fact it's way more slick right so you look at it here this is your credential if you click view details the credential flips over and you can read the description issue or you know criteria really love what they've done with the interface here but these are the two wallets that you know I have chosen to use as an individual and so when I go to a website so this is a website that just.
Manu Sporny: Just issues credentials in I'm going.
Manu Sporny: Select the plugfest to credential this one here so this is a jobs for the future plugfest to credential I'm going to click generate verifiable credential and so it basically calls and back-end and issues the credential to me I can take a look at this you know it's a verifiable credential that's an open badge credential and then when I click store in wallet that is when chappie pops up so when I click store in wallet chappie pops up this interface and it says this.
Manu Sporny: Website wants to send.
Manu Sporny: You and it clearly outlines what the sent in the ascending website is and then it gives me two selections for my wallet I can pick the various wallet or the learn card app at the credential in it also by default just remembers your choice for the website you know in the future you'll probably continue to use the same wallet but in this case I don't want it to do that right I wanted to ask me every single time even in the future.
Manu Sporny: If if it auto selects a wallet I can go back and so now you.
Manu Sporny: I don't want to use a different wallet you know I know I use you know wallet a ninety percent of the time in this website but this time I want to use while it be speaking to what you mentioned David and then I basically select the wallet and then the wall its interface pops up again like we chappie totally defers to the wallet to show the interface this is the wallet rendering the interface where I can see the details of the credential I'm about to pick up and when I click store it's stored and then I'm sent back to.
Manu Sporny: To the website that I was on so if I go to my wallet see there were three credentials before.
Manu Sporny: Refresh my wallet now I should be able to see for credentials in there including the new one that I just picked up this jobs for the future plugfest credential right so that's me picking it up in one wallet I can do the same process again so pick the plugfest to wallet but this time I'm going to store it in my learn card wallet so I picked the learn card app which is then going to put up its own interface so this is the learn car.
Manu Sporny: And while it's.
<kerri_lemoie> CHAPI is also being added to some mobile wallets.
Manu Sporny: And they're asking me if I want to accept or reject this credential I can kind of view the details here and then click accept to accept the credential and then learn card successfully stored it in the learn card wallet so that's that's it like that you know it's fairly straightforward there's you know not too much excitement you know going on there jumping back really quickly because I know we're almost out of time.
Manu Sporny: There's a chappie.
Manu Sporny: In the slide deck feel free to look through it we've been at this for a while now it's taken a lot of time to figure out the right way to get this integrated into the browser such that it works across all desktop browsers all tablet browsers old mobile app browsers you would not believe the number of variations of browsers out there so it's taken us a while to get it working 100% across-the-board more recently we've been able to demonstrate interop going really well using chappie but I think the.
Manu Sporny: Most interesting.
Manu Sporny: Going to happen in the chappie roadmap over the next couple of months to years so this year chappy is going into production it's they're going to be data dedicated data center teams running chappie so if you want to use chappie in production it is definitely the year to start doing that we're adding better integration for Native apps so that native apps show up in the chappie selector right now they don't but we want them to we are adding in some variations.
Manu Sporny: Ation of the oid.
Manu Sporny: Port so why DC for VCI and oid see for VP we are working with Google's Chrome team on you know native bars are experiments and integration there we expect some of that native browser code to be shipped it is already shipping fed seems already shipping in the latest version of Google Chrome so we're expecting a couple of new features that we might be able to use to make the chappie experience better so that we don't have to gracefully degrade we can.
Manu Sporny: Have a really nice native in browser experience and then.
Manu Sporny: 25 And Beyond continued you know upgrades and improvements okay one of the just real quick and then back over to you carry one of the most exciting things that's happening right now is that the browser teams are starting to look at chappy and go hey you know what we think we can map it to some of the Native stuff that we're working on in the FED CM work which is built into the browser you'll note that they're kind of account selection screen looks very similar.
Manu Sporny: Her to the chappy while its selection screen to the.
Manu Sporny: You know say.
Manu Sporny: Go to came and presented to the ccg last week and said that he feels like all of these things that are highlighted could be aligned their links in the presentation deck to chappie and the polyfill and all that kind of stuff and with that back over to you Kerry.
<pl> Great presentation Manu!
Kerri Lemoie: Thank you Maya that was excellent I know you fit in a lot into this this one hour or less but thank you for coming today everyone keep an eye on your inbox if you're not on the vcg mailing list I you can join it here we're actually working that we see AG co-chairs are working with digital promise and learning economy foundation on a badge where you can try this out for yourself so keep your eyes open for that in the near future and you can give it a shot.
Kerri Lemoie: And see what you think about it thanks everybody hope you have a great week.
Manu Sporny: Thanks for having me have a good one everyone.
<pl> Cheers
Dmitri Zagidulin: Susan do you have a question.
<taylor_(lef)> Thank you Manu, Kerri and all :)