The W3C Credentials Community Group

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W3C CCG Weekly Teleconference

Transcript for 2023-02-21

Our Robot Overlords are scribing.
Kimberly Linson: Recording is on.
Kimberly Linson: Awesome great well we've been looking forward to this topic for a while and we have Alex and anchor here today to talk to us about did link to resources specification and the I think the work item that they have in mind around that I did a little bit of reading but I'm going to let them give you the whole scoop just a couple of housekeeping items before I turn it over Alex.
Kimberly Linson: To you all.
Kimberly Linson: Quick because I think we're going to have a really good discussion today so first of all I just want to remind everyone as we do every week and that this meeting really adheres to the code of ethics and professional conduct and the w3c has put out and a link to that is found in the agenda and just remind reminder that everyone has the best intentions at the core also we are glad to have anyone who is here.
Kimberly Linson: Here to participate.
Kimberly Linson: His calls however anything that is a substantial contribution needs to be made by someone who is a full member of the ccg which is very easy to do the links to that are also in the agenda and it just requires filling out an agreement there is no cost to be a member of the ccg also we do keep a record of these meetings both minutes and recording the jitsi chat will be.
Kimberly Linson: Used to manage the.

Topic: Introductions/Reintroductions

Kimberly Linson: Chin and dialogue as we continue so if you have something you'd like to say please add yourself to the queue using Hue plus and and with that that takes care of the little formula and I wanted to do introductions and reintroductions do we have anybody today who is joining us for the first time or or rejoining us and would like to give us an update on what they've been up to now is your opportunity.
Kimberly Linson: ER tunity.
Kimberly Linson: Okay how about announcements and reminders there we go Manny let me have you go ahead.
<manu_sporny> Outcome of 2023 Miami Verifiable Credentials WG Meeting:
Manu Sporny: Sure hey everyone as many of you know we had a a verifiable credentials working group face-to-face meeting last week in Miami and it was good we got some stuff done I'd summarized tried to summarize do a fair summarization of the outcome of the meeting last week and I wrote that up in an email so I won't.
Manu Sporny: I won't dwell too much.
Manu Sporny: On that here but just be aware that you know there were some decisions made last week that will hopefully help you know verifiable credentials become even broader and things of that nature I think the the biggest decision that was probably made was that you know the core data model will you know continue to be json-ld and context will continue to be mandatory but the working.
Manu Sporny: Chair for other data formats that as long as they can map to the core data model can be considered a part of the verifiable credentials ecosystem so this is very much you know a part of this kind of big tent approach that was under discussion and it looks like that's the direction that the working group is going to go the other thing is I got the holder binding thing totally wrong so thank you to all of our for correcting me in adding a lot of detail.
Manu Sporny: To that discussion.
Manu Sporny: Other things that happened was the Json web signature to jws 2020 specification was abandoned in favor of using VC-JWT and then data set canonicalization and the DDS a Cryptid sweet continues in there's also work around simplifying how we refer.
Manu Sporny: How we talk about other.
Manu Sporny: Patients in the ecosystem so there's this desire to basically without judgment just list all the specifications that people are working on the stuff that you know anchor you know it's talking about today potentially being just you know something that we point to and just going on from there without as much value judgment as we were putting in for example in like the did specifications registry so again we're trying to open up the aperture.
Manu Sporny: ER two.
Manu Sporny: Let's get work in the area and make less value judgments around things that's it for that update.
Kimberly Linson: Thanks man who I feel like that sounds like it was a really productive time and I also wanted to thank you for putting that that summary out into the to the group that was really helpful so Kelly I think you're up next.
Kaliya Young: Yeah I'll start out with working group updates myself Dimitri and Derek who co-chair the secure data Store working group are all stepping down as co-chairs partly because the encrypted Data Vault work has stabilized and is people aren't meeting because folks are so busy implementing which is great and the decentralized webnode work it seems like it's continuing so if folks are interested in.
Kaliya Young: In co-chairing that.
Kaliya Young: Group there are positions open I think will work with deaf staff to run an election in that group although it's jointly chartered with ccg so that's that update.
Kaliya Young: There is next week I'm along with Heidi who I run iiw with we're going to Thailand to run the 8-pack digital identity I'm conference and it's not too late to register if you want to join or you have staff in the region who wants to join us in Bangkok and then two weeks after that is the thoughtful Biometrics Workshop which is one day March 16th I've already Kim Hamilton Duffy has registered which is great to see.
Kaliya Young: And we have folks coming from the.
Kaliya Young: Biometric identity management.
Kaliya Young: Ciao say 200 million entry biometric database for the United States government so they're coming it's gonna be an interesting day along with like several Civil Society groups who've written reports in the area and finally I had W is April.
Kaliya Young: 18 To 20th and if you want to come and you have difficulty with our pricing please don't hesitate to reach out we're committed to accessibility and even have some I think we still have a scholarship or to open for.
Kaliya Young: Who need them to get resources to travel.
Kaliya Young: Anyways thank you.
Kimberly Linson: Things clear I will look forward to your update on the thoughtful Biometrics conference will have to have you definitely give us a rundown of that sounds very interesting Joe I think you're next.
Joe Andrieu: Yeah thanks I just wanted to add some Nuance to the big tent conversation man who mentioned there's definitely interest in extending what VCS are two larger conversations however all that we spoke about at the VC w g was what that working group is going to be working on in terms of its it's based media types and how we might structure being able to interoperate or transform between a base type and.
Joe Andrieu: Types it may be securing that and.
Joe Andrieu: In that other groups can Define ways that you secure VCS and that sort of gets us towards a bigger tent but we did not specifically say hey whatever toy for diff or or the ietf comes up with that we are calling those verifiable credentials so there's a Nuance there that you know will come out in the wash I think but I wanted to add that to the conversation.
<manu_sporny> Yes, excellent point, Joe.
Kimberly Linson: Okay thanks anybody else have an announcement reminder introduction if you if you joined us later.
Juan Caballero: +1
Kimberly Linson: I think I do have Bumble fudge.
<bumblefudge> yeah sorry, badly timed :D
Kimberly Linson: Do you have a oh you're just plus you're just passed whining you're not you're not putting yourself on the key got it okay so in that case I'm going to go ahead and turn it over to Alex and anchor and Ross and let you let you get started.

Topic: DID-Linked Resources

Alex_Tweeddale: Yep I'm here Anchor Great yeah if you have any questions at any point just you can just pass to me I'll also keep an eye on the chat to see if anything comes through and then I'll just bring it up if it does.
<manu_sporny> Shout out to Blacksburg, VA!!! (in the example) :P
Manu Sporny: +1 ^^^
<bumblefudge> ��
Alex_Tweeddale: My name is said that you've been added to the queue and the CG thought but I mean that you've got your hands up.
Manu Sporny: Yes yes it does I just wanted to say this is a fantastic presentation anchored like really great job especially love that I mean you're making the case for you know why why append-only Ledger's are like a really good like solution to this problem without saying blockchain blockchain blockchain of every single slide like I really like that I think that helps a ton so.
Manu Sporny: Great presentation I wanted to point.
<harrison_tang> second on the "great presentation" part. it looks really pretty, too
Manu Sporny: Saying that you had mentioned which is like that rendering thing like it would be really nice to render you know link to assets that are effectively content addressed on Ledger or somewhere so that it renders in the way the issuer initially intended it to render we do have a new feature that we're considering in the verifiable credentials working group right now so I'll put the link in here it's pull 10:35 on a render property in a verifiable.
Manu Sporny: Anshel in one of the things that I imagine that this.
Manu Sporny: He could point to.
Manu Sporny: Is a dead linked resource right so I just wanted you to be aware that that decision is like imminent and if you're interested in supporting that that would be a good thing same thing for anyone else here like if you're interested in seeing that go in or happen in some way please chime in on that thread that's it.
Alex_Tweeddale: I think Marcus has his hand up.
Markus Sabadello: I just want to say I also really like this on the web and when it comes to your eyes for a long time there's been this concept of persistent your eyes right or persistent URLs purls and historically I think they've always been realized through convention right so people are simply saying here is a persistent URL a persistent way to link to a resource and it's just the domain name that by convention.
Markus Sabadello: Ian is considered to be persistent and if you.
<bumblefudge> My favorite kind of behavior-- undefined behavior!
<harrison_tang> ;(
<manu_sporny> it's the spice of life, bumblefudge! :P
Markus Sabadello: It's like that with deeds and you inherit all the properties of Deeds for for this idea of of any kind of resource to make them persistent and decentralized and all of that not by convention but because of the technology that that's really powerful and yeah great presentation and look forward to the next part.
Alex_Tweeddale: Yeah I second that Marcus and Carly who Tema did a really good presentation in trust over IP called pids with did switch was looking at like research identifiers which are traditionally identified using my persistent identifiers and we both looked at how that could be augmented with using a did length resource or a piston did URL so I 100% would love to sort of explore that use case a bit further but yeah I'll pass it back over to anchors to sort of kick off the second half here.
Alex_Tweeddale: Just going to pause that cuz I'm a man who has his hand up so.
Manu Sporny: Just a few comments in passing would you mind going back to the previous slide so I think this is I think this is great like the you know all the fields there you know have a purpose the data modeling is a bit off like I think there are a couple of things that you could change here that would bring it much more aligned in line with kind of the way things are modeled in boats did documents and verifiable credentials so things like resource you are I should probably just be ID.
Manu Sporny: But that's really it I mean you know everything else.
Manu Sporny: Probably you know be changed resource type is really just type it seems like that's probably what it should be so they're tiny little adjustments here that I think could be made to bring it more in line with you know the way things are modeled in did documents and verifiable credentials but largely Yep looks looks good.
<bumblefudge> id array?
Alex_Tweeddale: I think just to pause that and I may be wrong here anchor but if you called it just type then if you were doing some sort of query syntax that could get confused with maybe something like service type which is also called type so if you are querying a did documents in just wanted to find just wanted to clear by resource type and I think having a unique delineation between resource type and other different types within the date document could be a useful thing to have but I might be wrong.
Alex_Tweeddale: I'm there.
<alex_tweeddale> Ah sorry Dmitri, I'll pause for you in a sec
Alex_Tweeddale: Yeah Dimitri had his hands up a bit earlier so I think we'll pass over to Dimitri.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Thanks I do questions I one is I'm wondering if if the resource ID is meant for the researcher is meant to be an alternative location I wonder if it makes sense to reuse the also known as term from the did spec right okay.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Okay cool alright on.
Alex_Tweeddale: We actually have done that so I think anchor maeby was referring to a way we did it previously but then we had we did update it to also known as because we definitely looked at that same energy.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Okay got it really okay and then the other question is so the main question I have had when I when I heard about did linked resource is how is it different from defining a service endpoint to type three Source right like could this not be implemented as a service I'm service endpoint or is this a more like.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Simplification and.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Yeah so the question is husband.
Alex_Tweeddale: May I see your hand if I just want to add one more point that quickly I think in the service section as well you're quite limited and what the fields are so you've obviously got the ID and the type but what we do in the resource metadata is we derive uniqueness from resource name and resource type so if you were trying to lay this out in the service section you might run into challenges with previous and next versions of the same resource because you wouldn't be able to necessarily advertise.
Alex_Tweeddale: add to research to resources in the service section with the.
Alex_Tweeddale: In the same type because you might face a collision where the fragment in the in the ID was the same you wouldn't be you wouldn't allow that to happen so you would only be able to point to one specific version of a particular resource in time which is where I think this is a bit stronger in terms of being able to semantically point to the next and previous versions man you are I'll go to you next.
Manu Sporny: Yeah this is all fascinating stuff I think the just wanted to make a couple of General points so my understanding based on you know Dmitri's question your answers that you're looking for a generalized form of like this this pattern can be applied to all did methods and if you put them in I'm not going to no value judgment on whether it goes in the link resource section or service section but fundamentally you're trying to propose a way that could like all did methods could.
Manu Sporny: Use this they could choose to use do something else but you know you've got some qualities here.
Manu Sporny: That that you know are.
Manu Sporny: Special the the points that I'm I'd like to make though just going back to the previous statement Alex you were like you know I don't know if I'm right about this or not I think that you're going to get some pushback on the the some that the way you're doing some of the data modeling but I don't think it's going to lead to like a fundamental change in the way this works right so I think I think in the what you're saying about there.
Manu Sporny: Being collisions and stuff that's right.
Manu Sporny: Like Flags in my head of like that doesn't sound quite right I don't think that there could be a collision there but clearly I mean you guys thought you know more through this than you know most of the folks on the call so I think it's going to be really interesting to see kind of how that that conversation comes out but by and large this feels like a very useful you know body of work let's see.
Manu Sporny: Yeah it let me suggest that there's no one right way to do this I think that's what that you that's where the conversation will go I don't necessarily you know disagree with the feedback that you got but I think it's missing some important Nuance which is why you know the way that you've constructed it right now is a fine way to do it but you can also construct it as a service endpoint you can do it both ways and that's why I expect where you know working group discussion is going to you.
Manu Sporny: Bit of time is Which Way makes more sense let's.
Manu Sporny: +1 To having a common way to fetch a linked resource across multiple DID Methods.
Markus Sabadello: Yes yes we we have spoken about this I think this is really useful I'm very excited about it we discussed a little bit what the best way would be to fit this into the resolution specification right the resolution obviously has a Hooks and extension points where new query parameters a new video real patterns can be can be plugged in.
Markus Sabadello: One question that we discussed a little bit.
Markus Sabadello: Was whether or not the actual functionality the actual meaning and the de-referencing logic of these parameters would be described in the resolution itself or if that would be described in a separate specification but then as an extension to the referencing algorithm that's more than would then be more generic indeed resolution right like is this actual part of the digital solution specification or if there is this some separate.
Markus Sabadello: In which extends the debt resolution or.
Markus Sabadello: We'll be referencing algorithm I feel like this is this could potentially be a very fundamental and very core piece of functionality could be indeed resolution itself but that's something then for a future working group probably to decide.
Alex_Tweeddale: When we were proposing this work item there was also some like discussion around other implementations of our habits was working I see Joe Andrew you on the call I was wondering if you see or any like a lot of synergies between this approach in your approach and maybe how you thought about this going forward as well in conjunction with what you've already done.
Alex_Tweeddale: I see you come off mute Joe but I can't hear you.
Joe Andrieu: I was doubly muted with my headset yeah I think it's a it's a good attempt at solving a similar problem as what we did with the did Cosmos work.
Joe Andrieu: I'm sorry are you not able to hear me hello.
Manu Sporny: We can hear you now.
Alex_Tweeddale: Sorry it just cuts out.
Joe Andrieu: Okay so I think there are a lot of similarities the one thing that caught me as you were walking through it today.
Manu Sporny: Cut out again.
Kimberly Linson: Yeah right at that like at the moment where I was like hanging onto here.
Joe Andrieu: I think I'll just try and back up a little bit I think the best practice with regard to sort of schemas and versioning is going to be to make them and treat them as immutable which is what the calm system.
Dmitri Zagidulin: So much to say.
Joe Andrieu: This application is it still breaking up.
Alex_Tweeddale: Yeah it is.
Joe Andrieu: Yeah it's weird and then if any of you know just a short idea is there's some things we learned from calm from having immutable identifiers that uniquely defined the particular interface for all time rather than having named named schemes that do change or schemas at do so.
Manu Sporny: +1 To look at immutability as a mechanism to deal w/ versioning...
<manu_sporny> having a "never changing" unique ID might create problems if its mutable, is what I think Joe is saying (and I agree with him at a high level).
Joe Andrieu: +1 Manu. mutability is not our friend.
<manu_sporny> Though, I'm concerned that I'm missing nuances that the cheqd team hit in their design.
Manu Sporny: +1 For this being a very worthwhile discussion, and a work item, and the conversation/design integrated into the DID Resolution work.
Alex_Tweeddale: What's that just kind of closing thoughts as were at the our I just wanted to say Manu others if you want to sort of play around with did link to resources and test our theories in practice it's like a Sandbox environment this is all available currently use on checks may not and test now so if you want to get set up and play around with it and test some hypotheses happy to help there as well.
<manu_sporny> Awesome, thanks AlexT -- I'm time starved right now, but very interested in the work.
<harrison_tang> Thank you, Ankur and Alex! Love the presentation.
<markus_sabadello> Great presentation!
Kimberly Linson: Thank you so much anchor this was really helpful and I really appreciated the presentation and the way you approached it and was very accessible for me so thank you and and I know so so we've left this is a proposed work item it sounds like from the the chat I'm seeing a lot of support and this conversation has been really good so let me circle with Harrison and Mike and then we'll sort of understand.
Kimberly Linson: What the next steps are.
Kimberly Linson: To the next place and get get this work started here in the ccg so thank you all I'm sorry we're a little bit over time so I'm going to wrap us up and look forward to seeing you all next week thank you.
Harrison_Tang: And some car thank you.