The W3C Credentials Community Group

Meeting Transcriptions and Audio Recordings (2014-today)

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VC for Education Task Force

Transcript for 2023-03-13

Simone Ravaoli: Organizer: Simone Ravaioli
<kerri_lemoie> Hello all!
Our Robot Overlords are scribing.
<phil_l_(p1)> Would someone (Kerri/Simone) say something to test audio?
<kerri_lemoie> @Phil - SImone is speaking now
<phil_l_(p1)> @Kerri - thanks I'll have to restart my browser.

Topic: IP Note

Kerri Lemoie: Not am not seeing the transcriber it was going now it stopped again.
Kerri Lemoie: There it is it's back though there we go all right thank you.

Topic: Call Notes

Topic: Introductions & Reintroductions

Kerri Lemoie: Hi there I wanted to share with you all is exciting being a we're going to be doing pretty soon and actually you could try it right now if you would like to we are doing our first BC edu badge and it is an intro to chappie badge and you can see it actually at the chappie playground that digital Bazaar has put together and put a link to it right here.
Kerri Lemoie: And the chat home.
<kerri_lemoie> CHAPI Playground:
Kerri Lemoie: And so you will see when you go to this link.
Kerri Lemoie: On the far right that there is an intruder chappy credential and just simply by using a wallet the ones at the bottom right now are listed the various quality or learned Card Wallet definitely have chappie integrated or implemented you can issue that credential to yourself and then the point of this is to actually get the credential by by doing it by learning how to do it we're going to set up a web page that explains all of this but I thought some of you that are on here.
Kerri Lemoie: They might want to go and try this out for yourself and play.
Kerri Lemoie: Expect instructions web page the next couple weeks or so ideally we'd like to do more education efforts like this bcig so if you have an idea like this and you'd like to work on it with us from your platform or or just have ideas you don't know where to do it if you're interested in doing more education efforts please reach out to us because we're really super interested in helping people understand how all of the pieces of the technology work so this is just our first sort of like toe dipping.
Kerri Lemoie: Her toes into this okay that's it that's what I have any.
Kerri Lemoie: For thank you.
PL/T3_ASU: Hi did you hear me thank you just as an information note it's come to our attention of a number of us that there is a new work group being proposed it's just a by the way a good time some money to talk about that or would you like me to wait on this.

Topic: Open Agenda

PL/T3_ASU: Sure so it cost someone's radar at w3c including Manos a Manos Barney who alerted a number of us that a proposal was up in the proposed w3c work group Pages which describes.
PL/T3_ASU: a new.
PL/T3_ASU: Group being proposed called CV 3.0 and a description of it was essentially to explore what a new resume structure would look like in the context of the I assume these using the CV 3.0 yet though he doesn't quite explicitly say so in the context of web three related stuff there is only.
PL/T3_ASU: only two.
PL/T3_ASU: Names listed on the page the person that proposed it who is from an organization called the io foundation and and a colleague of ours Ian Davidson from identify and in conversation with Ian he said that he's joined it only because of the annouced sort of alert message that man who sent via email to some of us since he thought since he received that he joined in order to.
PL/T3_ASU: being made sure he got any messages that might be.
PL/T3_ASU: Sent through to that group to understand and be engaged in what they're thinking there have been no messages as far as we can tell and no one else has joined as far as we can tell that group and so as a result I think the the message I spoke with Ian earlier today and we're going to compose an email to the.
PL/T3_ASU: founder of that.
PL/T3_ASU: To be named Jean Carol Carol not sure I'm pronouncing that properly Q UE R alt which who is I believe Belgium and and just asked him if he was aware that there is a several activities going on in w3c under the auspices generally of the ccg community group of which the vce to you as a task force under it and and.
PL/T3_ASU: for which the DC we're good.

Topic: W3C CV3

<kaliya_identity_woman> can you post a link to the proposed working group?
<kaliya_identity_woman> community group I mean.
PL/T3_ASU: Is a formal work group that is addressing verifiable credentials broadly as a standard and also to indicate that there's been Outreach to the standards organization off for HR HR Open Standards who are incorporating the verifiable credential data structure into into their Json schema and with this individual.
PL/T3_ASU: Jean be willing to.
PL/T3_ASU: To bring that conversation into the ccg which would have a presumably wider immediate audience to discuss what he's thinking and and take it from there so that's the status of that it could very well be that this CV 3.0 group will Wither on its own and and disappear since there hasn't been anything or anyone.
PL/T3_ASU: join it or any activity.
PL/T3_ASU: Associated with it in the several weeks it's been up so far and we hope that if this conversation goes forward it would happen within the auspices of the broader ccg community and and so that's the best I can give as an update and thanks to Manu for alerting many of us that it was something he saw posted in that we should probably be aware of it and consider what steps to take.
PL/T3_ASU: take and.
PL/T3_ASU: The current plan for steps to take any questions.
Kaliya Young: I know actually a conference and he's coming to I owe you so I have it's as like surprised to see this with its particular framing has some really interesting ideas about ADA and human rights and.
Kaliya Young: I think really high of his work and thinking in terms of really put forward the kitten that.
Kaliya Young: Like or seeing programmer as Frontline he writes workers and really trying to bridge the gap between what the so-called digital right Community says what hodak might do so.
Kaliya Young: I know.
Kaliya Young: That you got some reached out and I think if you're coming to iiw we can talk to him and said there.
<jeff_o_-_humanos> Agree regarding his Jean Q's work and looking forward to seeing him there
<taylor_(lef)> Badge Summit proposals due March 17 -
TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_( A couple of things to note first off it looks to me like this has been around for a week all of seven days so I'm not surprised that there isn't a lot of activity there yet second it's important to be clear in our terminology this is a community group not a W3 working group the two are very very different in how they come about and what they do.
<pl/t3_asu> Thanks for the correction in terminology TallTed
TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_( There should be no problem in having a parallel community group on with this kind of focus and there's also nothing wrong with it being folded in and becoming a work item in this community group if that's what everybody thinks makes sense I'm guessing that lets you crawl doesn't know about us.
<kerri_lemoie> Thanks @TallTed
Dmitri Zagidulin: Thanks Simona so I wasn't a teeth Denver unfortunately but I wanted to bring up another item which is so the verifiable credential 2.0 working group is aiming towards a feature freeze at the end of the month meaning due to the Machinery of w3c working groups in order to.
Dmitri Zagidulin: To fulfill.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Are not run over.

Topic: VC 2.0

Dmitri Zagidulin: The group meets aggressively moved towards finalizing this back and working backwards from all of the deadlines in means feature freeze at the end of this month so just a heads up to people those those of you who are part of the working group you probably already know this take a look through the features see if something crucial is missing or something's obviously broken bring it up of interest to this particular group are two topics.
Dmitri Zagidulin: That may or may.
<susan_stroud> What key conferences, summits, etc., does this group plan to attend for the remainder of the year?
Dmitri Zagidulin: Able to make it into the spec by the end of the month the one is the proposed render hint property and the other one is a mechanism to cryptographically link credentials together the digest field so yep just a heads up peach trees coming which the overall op shot is that soon will have soon in quotes we will have a variable credential 2.0.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Specification which.
Dmitri Zagidulin: That's it for me thanks.
<dmitri_zagidulin> @Susan - ooh, great question, re conferences
Kerri Lemoie: Yeah I just wanted to follow up and went to meet you is saying it TJ I was wondering if you could say a little bit more about any other changes I think there are some like other property changes that will affect probably the badges spec in some way.
Kerri Lemoie: I think I'm thinking of issuance date Maybe.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Yeah great point I'll do that I just have to make.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Sure okay so I won't I'll just start ripping the queue while we're on the topic of the sequential data model to the main breaking changes so far have been the renaming of several date fields mean.
Dmitri Zagidulin: She wants date has been renamed to valid after and expiration date has been renamed to valid well I'm sorry about before.
Dmitri Zagidulin: No I got that backwards one second let me pull up this but but but the upshot is that expiration and issuance have been renamed that's keeping the one there's been.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Some clarification and additional definitions on what it means to be a verifiable credential and what needs to be a regular credential on verifiable there's currently an in progress.
<tallted_//_ted_thibodeau_(he/him)_(> nbf = not valid before
Dmitri Zagidulin: Registration hopefully of a media type.
Dmitri Zagidulin: That would be something like and this is this is again so in progress so it'll probably be finalized by the end of the month but something like application slash credential + LD + Json or something related I think those are the two main.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Changes are salted or anybody else from the group please feel free to hop on and.
Dmitri Zagidulin: And fill-in items I missed.
<kerri_lemoie> Thanks!
<tallted_//_ted_thibodeau_(he/him)_(> might be double-muted
Taylor_(LEF): How about now sorry about that.
Taylor_(LEF): Yeah thanks to money I was yeah permissions by phone and Jesse was just giving a quick update having been supporting the Denver and did day and Wallach on a number of events over the last couple weeks I thought it went really well super well-attended think we had probably 90 to 100 packed into a room and Denver for today I'll pipe.
Taylor_(LEF): don't think the recording is quite there yet but I'll make.

Topic: ETH Denver

<deb_everhart_(credential_engine)> I'm curious about how those changes in date properties were decided, since validity and expiration mean different things
Taylor_(LEF): To send it out to the group so that everyone can review that if it's of Interest the whole day did get to get recorded so we have that and yeah overall super energizing really cool to just see alignment across the eight or ten groups that that presented and yeah I'll kind of keep resources flowing as they come in and I'll also share a link here for those that are curious about the event but overall I'd say a lot of.
Taylor_(LEF): just positive alignment and Storage.
Taylor_(LEF): See the just shared narrative around you know why did how did just you know why they matter within the broader digital identities landscape had a obviously a bit of a sort of web three lean but yeah I thought it was just a really positive and energizing event.
<dmitri_zagidulin> yeah, the two fields - 'validFrom' and 'validUntil'
<dmitri_zagidulin> hey, naming is hard :)
Deb_Everhart_(Credential_Engine): You know I'm not going to be that person who complains about something where they didn't do the work I just wanted to point out that validity is different from expiration you know valid is the if the determination of the value of the resource right and expiration is a date determined so for example validity might be determined by the.
Deb_Everhart_(Credential_Engine): Receiver apart from what the credential issuer determined as how the issuer defined expiration so I'm not necessarily asking for any action I just wanted to point out that they are two different things.
<dmitri_zagidulin> note that 'validUntil' does not refer to the /resource/ or subject. it refers to the /credential/ itself
TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_( If I'm a leap into that that's been an active piece of discussion and yes we are aware of it these things are different things and getting them still has been part of the challenge of this revision work I should not have put not valid before I should have said not before because yes they are different things and they have different semantics they also have different kinds of experiences.
TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_( Part of the challenge is that other groups who have done similar work have made similar mistakes at different points and in the conversations about these things consistency is shall we say rare even among people who are very well familiar with exactly what they mean to be saying they use the wrong words of times case in point me earlier.
TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_( More participation by more folks who are aware of these things but appreciate you pointing it out anyway.
<deb_everhart_(credential_engine)> just fyi, the CTDL definition:
Dmitri Zagidulin: I sure I just wanted to sort of clarify that the valid until belongs not to any sort of resource or the credential subject it specifically means that this credential is valid until such a time which I think the group tells was fairly synonymous semantically with expiration.
<kaliya_identity_woman> I need to run. Thanks everyone!

Topic: HR Open

PL/T3_ASU: Yeah I just don't know if it's been mentioned here before or not but the HR open Community Open Standards group has been working on a resume standard modification to its Jason a Json schema for HR systems and they have incorporated into it which should be open and public shortly I think by.
PL/T3_ASU: the end of the month.
<simone_ravaioli> LER RS - LER Resume Standard
PL/T3_ASU: A a resume schema that is being referred to as Ellie our RS for Ellie our resume standard and it is a sort of an amalgamation or a hybrid of the former json-based schema that HR open systems has been promoting for the purposes of being able to ingest and process resumes and the.
PL/T3_ASU: the addition is to incorporate.
PL/T3_ASU: Credentials of the form of json-ld that are from w3c's data model and one add text to recent data models so they'll be V 3 and C LR V 2 and we will and that will be visible that will be public in a I think by the end of the month it does not facilitate at present the sending of credentials in VC form to a.
PL/T3_ASU: Application system that is if following the HR Open Standards that because there is no mechanism at this point in the HR side to be able to receive that sort of thing other than as a file upload from your creation of an account on a on a job board or similar similar mechanism that is currently in place so.
PL/T3_ASU: this is clearly a.
PL/T3_ASU: Step towards something that is more open and accepting of credential sent by wallets but it is it's not it doesn't do that currently you would have to be on a job site and be prompted to upload your verifiable credential via a flight typical file upload process from your account on that site.
PL/T3_ASU: Just to respond to that and Dimitri feel free to jump in as well the the lers standard does offer a means by which a verifier from that is embracing and using the HR Open Standards can can execute a verification of a VC.
PL/T3_ASU: We gave them some advice when we in this case Dimitri and I gave him some some advice as to how they could do that without requiring existing verifiers in the w3c VC world to rewrite their verification code so in that sense we were trying to do exactly or dress exactly a question you're raising are we making it harder for folks to verify credentials in Our intention was to show that there is a way they could do that that doesn't require.
PL/T3_ASU: sure they are verifiable credential community and the.
PL/T3_ASU: Verifiers to modify code to be able to respond to a request for verification from an HR System that adopts This Ellie RS4 s standard themselves so I don't think we're aware of that problem and and so I and there are ways I think that we can minimize it it doesn't address anything beyond verification in the sense of tamper evidence which is.
PL/T3_ASU: quickly in.
PL/T3_ASU: Chang is what are additional methods for validation of the credential and its quality and other sorts of Dimensions which so far outside of the scope of the VC definitions.
Kerri Lemoie: Yeah thanks for thanks for that feeling thanks for asking this question so any 22 okay this is just a talk first about the two standards we know that education centers that we know are have been aligned with verifiable credentials right we have open Badges and CLR so far that are ready to use and CLR for CRV one primarily was assistant the system exchange it was like behind the scenes sort of like you know students transferring or data available to the students but not.
Kerri Lemoie: Necessarily occurred in chaleur verifiable claim.
Kerri Lemoie: Until this version and with open badges what we've we saw is that most platforms made it possible for people to share their badges online and there was more of a human and and social verification right then then then the the verification number talking about now and so I think for open badges I don't think it's going to increase friction I think instead it adds functionality.
Kerri Lemoie: And IT addresses an audience that we haven't been a.
<deb_everhart_(credential_engine)> 74M
Kerri Lemoie: Absolutely recently we've been talking to issuers mostly and there are a lot of open badges in the world like I mean I think the report came out about how many like badges probably have been issued many many thousands of Hedges and many of them never see the light of day they just sit on servers or maybe they get shared at one point in time on Facebook or LinkedIn or something and so I think I don't think we're adding friction because that can still happen right you can still issue open badges B3.
Kerri Lemoie: Three that can be shared online just like they can be now but I think we're adding additional functionality.
Kerri Lemoie: The verifier also we talked about this ceremony now and I love that word ceremony ceremony so thank you for using it but we don't have to do the verification that way right that is just one of the ways that it's being proposed now that is you know what one of the more direct ways where we actually know so how it works really is that the for those who don't know is that the verifier sends a request and they say please send these very specific types of credentials I we want to see one that's a diploma.
Kerri Lemoie: One that's maybe.
Kerri Lemoie: You know a student ID and they're all type of open badge and then the wallet knows what to look for and the person can send those specific credentials and and this is very different because it's not like people are like we have this concept of like over badging which I don't never believed it with open Badges of they're all of these Badges and existence and nobody knows what they all do but in this case the verifier specifically says I just want to know about these specific warrants and I think that's going to be really powerful.
Kerri Lemoie: I don't think it's gonna have to fiction but I think there's I'll stop soon.
Kerri Lemoie: Ahead of us.
Kerri Lemoie: We can we can overcome that.
Kerri Lemoie: +1 Simone
<dmitri_zagidulin> @Simone - I think giving users many options /besides/ QR codes is crucial. (like how LCW allows creation of a public human-readable link for a credential, etc)
PL/T3_ASU: Next yeah I just wanted I guess my I'm trying to remember my comment now because the the question really that's emerging is I think starting to spill over from what you your provocation and Carries response indicates is around things like trust Registries and and the like to add another layer of of information.
PL/T3_ASU: about the.
PL/T3_ASU: Its contents as opposed to its structure and whether it has been touched and I think that's the direction that that were now moved in we've moved into and and it's important one because it's a it's one that has the potential for exclusion as well as inclusion of a community that we want to be mindful of and be careful about so I just wanted to make that connection.
Kerri Lemoie: Re: Trust Registries - if you missed last Tues CCG call, the agenda was about a new group springing up to discuss verifiable lists:
Sharon Leu: Thanks actually this is a question for Phil so I'm glad you were ahead of me in the queue so this conversation has me thinking not just about the options for the holder of the credential but I'm curious whether the a jar open group had done any kind of sort of user design research on what is it that the verifier would like to do with the credential I'm curious because your group seems to flip it approaches this problems at from the flip side as you know a lot of us who do work with.
Sharon Leu: Holders and in.
Sharon Leu: I'm curious whether in thinking through what do verifiers want to do with this whether it has impacted the way that you have sort of designed any of the processes or anything like that so very curious about how and whether you will include some kind of ride up of that in your spec documents.
PL/T3_ASU: Simona should I go ahead now.
PL/T3_ASU: Sure thanks Sharon that's a great great observation the initial stages was simply as was articulated before to to allow for the credentials of the vcl ER type to be included into the HR applications that such as applicant tracking and matching tools and representations in actual HR information.
PL/T3_ASU: The conversation about what the verifier AKA in this chance I'm interpreting that to mean the employer is looking for is is one that is is starting but it's not it hasn't been the focus yet of whole lot of a concentrated discussion in part because the impression seems to be that the data that the employers seek.
PL/T3_ASU: eek they.
PL/T3_ASU: They've already incorporated into their schema and that includes a whole bunch of things that we wouldn't potentially necessarily think about but which are important to many different employers that have to do with you know status of various licensing and other other parameters that are directly related to a particular job 81-point that has been discussed is.
PL/T3_ASU: Information that an employer seeks based on what the employers themselves have been concerned about which is information about the applicants preferences for work conditions that includes being able to commute from their current location to the job site and what what implications that might have on their decision-making aspects of job flexibility aspects of other surrounding.
PL/T3_ASU: ending criteria that may be important.
PL/T3_ASU: With the applicant and that the employers know influence applicant decision making but which they have not formally included into into the information about the applicant themselves and so we have had some extended discussions about those aspects of what employers are seeking and and there is in the existing Json schema some Editions.
PL/T3_ASU: and that.
PL/T3_ASU: Right time to commute times and our flexibility for work and other things that that an individual might want to have as a decision-making parameter in whether a job is worth their pursuit or not and I can dig through and summarize some of that hasn't been written up formally but it's in the notes of the meetings and I can pull that out and summarize and try to bring it back to the group but that's the extent of.
<sharon_leu> Thanks, Phil.
<pl/t3_asu> @sharon - there is a quality of work dimension that influences employers in this tight job market. This might suggest at VC that describes these attributes might be useful to construct.
Sharon Leu: Sorry can I follow up on that this is the question for feels so I hear you on the like you know qualities of like work and preference that's more like in the data model itself I'm curious like to the earlier conversation that Simone a and Carrie were having about like ceremonies like whether there's anything in particular about the workflow of verification that you.
Sharon Leu: Sort of constructed that you think is maybe a little.
Sharon Leu: Based on the feedback that you have received from working with various 80s providers.
PL/T3_ASU: May I respond directly some money.
PL/T3_ASU: Sure so around the ceremony the where this is actually come up is in an acknowledgement that there is no feedback from an employer to the applicant in any meaningful way currently and a ceremony of its ceremony involving that is both a tricky proposition as many lawyers.
PL/T3_ASU: Players to say very little for fear of liability and whatever they say but but it is also the case that there the employers are painfully painfully aware that applications don't necessarily have a an individual's we submit them don't have a mechanism to improve their prospects if they aren't given feedback that a line that indicates to them the qualities.
PL/T3_ASU: is that they.
PL/T3_ASU: To the job and where they might be strengthening themselves if they were they were able to do some have additional training in a particular way or or experiences that their employers looking for that they're not presenting with respect to verification per se I think the report on The Last Mile that indicated that that verification is.
<simone_ravaioli> off topic: I like how the english transcription of my name is "small money" (how true!) ;(
PL/T3_ASU: Significance to employers then we had perhaps really hoped except for those employment current circumstances which have high risk associated with with performance that is subpar in that meaning things like Health Care Physicians and others we're doing something inappropriately on a job has significant ramifications.
PL/T3_ASU: but other than that.
PL/T3_ASU: Is considered a necessary step but the way in which the VC world has had made that simpler to accomplish is one that I think the HR folks are looking forward to but it is not dispositive and decision-making.
Kerri Lemoie: +1
<kerri_lemoie> DCC Community Call:
Kerri Lemoie: I'm in reference to this topic we had a certain human computer traction researchers from Georgia Tech from c21 you at Georgia Tech president last week last Thursday at the DCC Community call and they did their research with employers and I thought you made from you all my friend this interesting so this is the recording and in the Chatters put that link and I will I will publish the.
Kerri Lemoie: The slides I have them somewhere.
<eric_sembrat_(gt,_he/him)> We've got slides and some boilerplate write-up on the DCC call:
Kerri Lemoie: My email but they're not public but at that you may find their their findings interesting and how the employers they talk to this is just your small research study with with about ten employers I think in each different there are two different studies talking about you know what they saw is the value of credentials what they need to know as they're coming their way it will be helpful for them so we're checking out when you have a moment okay Derek just put the slides that there.
Kerri Lemoie: Thank you Eric.
<pl/t3_asu> Thank you Kerri!
<kerri_lemoie> Thanks for all the great topics all!
Kerri Lemoie: It's money I don't know that I'm sorry I don't remember what we're doing next week I do know very soon will be ASU tln will be presenting an April.
Kerri Lemoie: TLN:
<sharon_leu> Thanks!
<susan_stroud> Thanks!
<taylor_(lef)> Thanks :)