The W3C Credentials Community Group

Meeting Transcriptions and Audio Recordings (2014-today)

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VC for Education Task Force

Transcript for 2023-03-27

<phil_l_(p1)> Audio check?
<phil_l_(p1)> @Dmitri - thank you ;-)
Our Robot Overlords are scribing.

Topic: IP Note

Dmitri Zagidulin: Quick IP note yeah there we go okay P note anyone can participate in the calls however substantive contributions to any CGI item C ccg work item including anything this task force does you must be a member of the ccg and sign the IPR agreement.
Dmitri Zagidulin: So please.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Let us know if you under it.

Topic: Call Notes

Dmitri Zagidulin: Minutes will be recorded and then post it on the archive we use GT chat or IRC to queue up speakers for questions and so on some blood type Q Plus to be added to the queue or raise your hand here and just see.

Topic: Introductions & Reintroductions

Dmitri Zagidulin: Eight introductions and reintroduction so is anyone new here on the call that would like to introduce themselves.
Dmitri Zagidulin: All right Todd doesn't sound like I have anybody knew it does anybody want to reintroduce a anybody have a new position or just haven't spoken in a while.
Dmitri Zagidulin: In this group.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Collin go ahead.
Colin_Reynolds,_Ed_Design_Lab: Hey morning afternoon evening everyone I just I wanted to put out there I started working with education Design Lab a few months ago I was previously working with morning economy Commendation but one thing that I'd Design Lab is doing I think is relevant to this group as we do a lot of work with higher education community colleges some of the talent pipeline into employment and so we've got a lot of implementation projects that are happening.
Colin_Reynolds,_Ed_Design_Lab: year round.
Colin_Reynolds,_Ed_Design_Lab: Groups using digital wallets and starting to kind of iron out some of the I guess build some of the infrastructure to help data flow through all of their systems both in the higher education side and the employer side and so I just wanted to put that out there for groups of maybe looking for opportunities to either learn more about what this implementation looks like on campuses or with employers or others are doing some more work I would love to.
Colin_Reynolds,_Ed_Design_Lab: to have conversations.
Colin_Reynolds,_Ed_Design_Lab: From you all about things that are happening in the space and one of the other projects that I've mentioned here previously but as well underway until long since vault in that as well as a consultant is the experience you project where we're working with groups and I think Jake dibattista is actually on this call and he's got a project for this in this space as well but the experience you is really taking on structured learning and employment data structuring it into specific data models to sort of prep for.
Colin_Reynolds,_Ed_Design_Lab: for implementation all across the ecosystem so I think that is yeah.
<jake> Thanks for the shout out!
Colin_Reynolds,_Ed_Design_Lab: Definitely connect because there's a lot of great stuff happening more on the implementation side and that's sort of where I exist now is really working with teams to iron it out and get some recommendations so if you got a wallet solution or some like Tech solution or something that is helpful in this space would love to connect and find ways to get those plugged in because ultimately interoperability is what we're all working towards and so don't want to leave anybody out and want to learn from from what you all are doing boots on the ground.
Colin_Reynolds,_Ed_Design_Lab: dial so thanks for the chance to chat.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Absolutely welcome we're glad to have you here Deb I believe you're up next.
Deb_Everhart_(Credential_Engine): Hey everybody I'm thanks Carl let me piggyback on that a little bit I mean you must be under a rock if you're not following what's happening with a I right now and we think that experience you is a really super timely opportunity to train AI systems on how to make meaning out of credential and course and skill and competency data and credential engine were providing.
Deb_Everhart_(Credential_Engine): being a suite of resources.
Deb_Everhart_(Credential_Engine): It lets anyone.
Deb_Everhart_(Credential_Engine): Use the CTL schema to train Ai and and the registry as real life data also for training but importantly to help get a lot more information available as structured linked open data using CDL so that directly apropos to this group that data can be included in verifiable credentials so that those verifiable credentials have meaning and that.
Deb_Everhart_(Credential_Engine): that human beings don't have to do all the work.
Deb_Everhart_(Credential_Engine): So happy to answer any questions about that.
<kaliya_identitywoman> I don't know what is going on but Jitsi app on my phone no longer has audio working.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Thanks Deb and I definitely like to second that if you're an implementer in verifiable credential space and education and you're not familiar with the credential engine Suite of specifications databases are all of that all of that stuff definitely take a look please reach out to Debbie if you have questions and so on.
<david_baumgartner@smarteduwallet> @Colin Thanks for the intro. We've built a LER verifiable credentials lifelong wallet, and we've focused on interoperability. Would love to connect:
Dmitri Zagidulin: How he is mentioning that jitsi app on the phone stopped working yes Coley agreed I've experienced the same thing so if you're on mobile and you can't hear anything but you won't hear me saying this but you want to use git in the browser on mobile that that actually works all right announcements and.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Yeah because of community announcements.
<colin_reynolds,_ed_design_lab> Here is the Experience You dashboard we have been curating for project work. Would love all to have a look and share resources, links, etc you think helpful for AI teams structuring LERs at scale:
Dmitri Zagidulin: Yeah go ahead.
<deb_everhart_(credential_engine)> we're putting together a 1-pager on how to use these existing resources for AI applications and plugins
Dmitri Zagidulin:
Kaliya Young: Yeah for folks who are based in Europe or those who want to come to Europe we have the digital identity unconference Europe or dice coming up June 7 to 9 so this is a real opportunity for anybody who is sort of on the ground in the real world building who wants to connect with other implementers to do so.
Kaliya Young: Of the days there's a sort of half day orientation one too many talks but the the second two days are unconference format the same way we do at iiw using open space technology so I'm hoping that folks who are on list in Europe can spread the word because we really need to get the word out now so we get enough people there in June I'll put the URL.
Kerri Lemoie: I can hear you.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Thank you so much and I apologize for the silence I was speaking but of course I muted myself thank you for the link in chat and I'm wondering if it would be possible to organize something in conjunction with the conference clear mentioned dice Europe which I'm personally looking forward to certainly I cleared the did you have did you want to say anything else.
<simone_ravaioli> Great idea Dmitry !
Kaliya Young: I'm not well I'm on clear if I got cut off or not but.
Dmitri Zagidulin: No no you oh just say it say it anyways yeah.
Kaliya Young: No I don't have more to say I just really hope that a variety of communities working on these you know can use the event in the way that folks Uzziah W is to get real work done and there's a ball forward and they don't need to organize their own separate events that can just use our event you know.
Dmitri Zagidulin: That and that's a very good point and it sounds like Simona is interested in in coordinating something with regards to the ab c-- announcement that he mentioned and yeah I'm personally definitely looking forward to the dice unconference thank you for organizing it.

Topic: VC Specification Directory

Dmitri Zagidulin: All right that case I'll let's move on to our main event and at any point please feel free to put yourself on the Q&A questions welcome so we wanted to talk today a little bit about a fairly recent development from the verifiable credential working group group that is currently working on the VC 2.0 data model.
Dmitri Zagidulin: One of the one of the mechanisms that.
Dmitri Zagidulin: The working group has identified is this notion of a VC specification directory so it's so what is it is a Respec formatted specification which just serves as a directory of pointers to other relevant specs the whole thing is on GitHub which means you can.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Open issues.
Dmitri Zagidulin: To ask questions you can make pull requests to propose adding your own VC related specification to do that directory so what do we mean by it's an extension Point mechanism and how does it interplay with linked data so.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Because the core of verifiable credentials are uses json-ld contacts and linked data as an implementer you're free to add.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Their contexts any other properties to the VC data model as long as they don't conflict with the existing.
Dmitri Zagidulin: He 2.0 properties defined in the specification so you can't redefine the credential subject the top-left critical subject property for example because the compiler the json-ld processor will give you an error but.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Hi that whatever you're working on.
Dmitri Zagidulin: In in education in other verticals uses a new field or uses fields in a slightly different manner that other people basically you're going to need to customize their fiber credentials especially the contents right so if the v-spec defines the envelope of the assigned verifiable objects.
Dmitri Zagidulin: What it doesn't Define.
<david_baumgartner@smarteduwallet> @Simone Our platform smartEduWallet is based in Europe and would like to connect re the EC Digital Building Blocks event you mentioned.
Dmitri Zagidulin: At least up to the community is of course the contents and we're starting to see some vertical specific specifications such as the open badges version 3 and the CLR 2.0 specification so they both use the outer envelope of air five credentials but constrain and specify the contents of the of what gets put inside the envelope.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Can you create something like an extension to VC can you create something like open badges without participating in this directory yes absolutely so by itself as is the verifiable credentials data model is meant to be extensible.
Dmitri Zagidulin: What this directory does is it's aiming to be a Central Community Resource that points to.
Dmitri Zagidulin: It's extensions and specifications I used by education Community is the and pretty much anybody else participating in ccg credentials working group and Beyond.
Dmitri Zagidulin: So what are what are some of the things that are in there I'll pull up the I'll pull up the directory in just a second but I want to say that.
Dmitri Zagidulin: The moment it contains several things specifications for various signature methods such as linked data integrity and I imagine in the future it will point to the Json web token serialization of our fabric credentials and so on.
Dmitri Zagidulin: It lists specifications for existing properties such as okay so the base back defines credential status property but only defines only reserves it but doesn't say what you're actually going to do with it so in order to find examples of credential status you would go to this directory and and look at the specs listed there we'll take a look in just a second and and thirdly.
Dmitri Zagidulin: The directory has.
Dmitri Zagidulin: New verifiable credential data model properties of the new top level properties of up which Give an example in a second so let's let's take a look at some of these and and then we'll take questions and then we'll have we can have a discussion of and general extension mechanisms and what some of these imply so let's let's open up the rendered directory.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Okay one second.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Let me share the right screen.
Dmitri Zagidulin: And this is the this is this thing that I'll be looking at.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Alright so here's here's an example or rather sorry here's what the directory looks like this moment in time so has an introduction has instructions on how to add to it but here's what we got in it so the section 2.1 credential status.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Spell specifications for an existing property just credential status so for example status list 2021 which is what most implementers are using and also one edx revocation status list method and so you can see that in addition to the spec it lists the maintainers email and website so you can get into contact with them so you can send questions and.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Bugs pull requests.
Dmitri Zagidulin: That sort of thing similarly credential schema is an existing core property in the in the specifications so here's here's a few.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Scheme of specs in use the community one created by the working group one donated by one edtech and a newer one also by view their fiber credentials working group done in open API which is a superset of Json schema.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Here's a example link to evidence existing field and here's the Ed 255 19.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Specification for for signing so this is where all the different proof methods we are going to go so different key types different civilizations such as linked data versus Json web token and so on.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Here's an.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Five refresh service spec terms of use and some vertical specific verifiable credential types such as as mentioned open badges CLR version 2 and of course the Exon work that the traceability task force of this ECG has been doing.
Dmitri Zagidulin: So let's pause here and see if we have any questions about the.
Dmitri Zagidulin: The director and the general-purpose mechanism.
Dmitri Zagidulin: All right so let's take a look at some of the let's look at a sneak preview of some of the.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Some of the proposals for new.
Dmitri Zagidulin: There are mechanisms and top-level properties that are coming to the Bible credential specifications directory near you so one moment while stop sharing.
Dmitri Zagidulin: So one of the things that members of this community are working on that might be of interest to you specifically is for example I think we mentioned in an earlier vco2 call work being done on this notion of a very Fab credential rendering hint so a lot of us wallet issue and verifier implementers you on this call half.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Struggled with the problem of.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Okay so Ivory as a wallet user I received a new credential how is the wall going to know how to render it how to display it so of course we have the sort of innovation mechanism where each wallet essentially competes on how well they can display the credential and and that's an important aspect of it but we also from talking with with issuers and with other implementers we saw a very strong need for.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Issuers being able to.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Press preferences that hey Downstream when rendering this credential here's some possible templates or images or other mechanisms that you can use there's also demand for rendering credentials in different modalities so visually but also what about voice what about accessibility mechanisms like Braille right we asked verifiable credentials become more prevalent the world we need to consider all of that stuff.
Dmitri Zagidulin: This is going.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Rocketing with a verifiable credentials in many different environments many different modalities some of them will be resource-constrained some of them will be you know regular desktops and so you can render credentials very elaborately but so the rendering hands provides mechanisms for consistent display and and other modes of presentation.
Dmitri Zagidulin: So several of us worked on a paper and much like everything else with a verifiable credential the render hint is going to be a flexible point of extension so you'd be able to make proposals form for rendering mechanisms that will go into that property and so and the proposals range from something as simple as here is a pre-rendered credential as a PNG image.
Dmitri Zagidulin: So that's that's a mechanism for example I used by previous.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Open open badges specification and they can be the image can be linked or embedded into the credential and of course we can we can talk about the various security trade-offs between linking and embedding security and usability trade-offs really.
Dmitri Zagidulin: So that's that's one end of the simple Spectrum on the more complex side of the spectrum of rendering you would be able to link to a for example HTML or SVG.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Opponent that the wallet can use.
Dmitri Zagidulin: To render though the credential and of course both with HTML and SVG and other rendering Technologies there's gonna be much discussion for how to render it safely how to prevent any sort of code injection attacks and all of those other things that you take into consideration so rendering hint is going to be a general purpose mechanisms that is also able to use existing a rendering.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Nations that are in progress such as diffs.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Asian exchange display specification the open badges style image and and several others so.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Specification proposing the render property.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Is an example of something that's going to be added to the VC specifications directory.
Dmitri Zagidulin: So that'll be a short Standalone spec hey there is this property that you might want to use and then separately they could be links to the specific specifications of the rendering property.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Similarly I think we've earlier on ABC edu call Phil Long myself and gold fellas did a presentation of this notion of cryptographically composing distinct Standalone credentials in a verifiable way you and also introducing this general-purpose digest hash from mechanisms that can be used for various things and verifiable credentials.
Dmitri Zagidulin: So that's that's another example of the spec.
Dmitri Zagidulin: And then of course for those of you who may not have seen the recent presentation in the ccg call I think it was last week or the week before that by Manos Forney and others a large number of stakeholders have come together from from train from too many too many communities for from the trust over IP foundation and several other projects.
Dmitri Zagidulin: I have come.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Rate on this notion of trust Registries and what do we mean by trust registry as well to start with they're collaborating on a way to specify the ability for a verifier to constrain verification to a list of known and trusted agents so that sounds abstract what does it mean for example for us.
Dmitri Zagidulin: The ability for self issued credentials is very important one in education but also in addition it's extremely important for us to be able to say when going to verify this diploma this particular verifier will want to.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Saint for example nationally accredited.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Higher education institutions or this verifier is going to be dealing with only accredited high schools in the European Union so this notion of being able to.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Bubbly and in a community centered fashion Define lists of trusted verifiers an issuer's that's what the spec is about and it's being incubated in the ccg under the verifiable issuers and verify your specification and again that is that's another one Speck that will be most likely added to the VC specs directory.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Pause here see if people have any questions.
Dmitri Zagidulin: I see Mona go ahead.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Absolutely so at minimum you should open an issue on the VC specifications directory saying hey here's this extension I would really like it so that's the minimum the recommended path that other piece I personally I think the other co-chairs of this group would share is bring it up on a community call first and then open an issue so bring it up here.
Dmitri Zagidulin: On one of these calls bring it up on the.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Credentials community group call.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Or the if you're a member of the VC working group mention it there that way.
Dmitri Zagidulin: That can be some preliminary Community discussions of whether this is a good idea or no this is this is going to lead to the following security problems and then after that a discussion of patient we amend the core BC data model to include this property and spoiler given that the.
Dmitri Zagidulin: EC data model working group is aiming.
Dmitri Zagidulin: For a essentially a feature freeze and the next couple of weeks it's unlikely that the group is going to.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Agree to expanding the core data model and so in fact the the render hint and the digest hash link mechanism were both proposed to the VC data model working group as extensions to the core spec and and the group pushed back and said no we don't have time before the code freeze and and in any case here is this general purpose extension mechanism which is how the specification is intended.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Station directory is intended.
Dmitri Zagidulin: So instead of.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Expanding the core data model spec we're going to Define general purpose extension points and you would do it there so hopefully that answers your question go ahead Simoni.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Yes that would be up perfect candidate so definitely open an issue on the Visa directory saying hey let's add the European credential type and then if you familiar with GitHub and with HTML editing please make a direct pull request and add a link in the type section if not reach out to one of us here in the community.
Dmitri Zagidulin: You and I will be able to help you make that.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Is he out perfect thanks for the data model Link in the chat.
<kayode_ezike> If I understand correctly, each extension point proposal would introduce a new context, correct?
Dmitri Zagidulin: Anybody else any other questions about the directory and extending.
Dmitri Zagidulin: So coyote in chat is asking does each extension Point introduced a new context and generally yes so.
Dmitri Zagidulin: If you're adding a new property of the DC data model.
Dmitri Zagidulin: You would need to define context for it if you're expanding upon an existing property such as credential status evidence terms of use and you're also going to need to be defining those new types and those sub properties somewhere and one of the things that you're going to do is publish a context now as a VC Community we're working on tools to make publishing create a new context to be push-button.
Dmitri Zagidulin: In fact there are such tools already but we're working on improving them but for the moment if you're an implementer in the space and you'd like to create a extension point a proposal and you're unsure on how to create a context please reach out to one of the chairs here in this in this group and we'll walk you through how to create a context hosted and so on now can you.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Can you add.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Or expand upon an existing property without creating context yes these days yes because one of the things that the VC working group added to the 2.0 core VC context is this vocabulary mechanism and what it means is that now.
Dmitri Zagidulin: If you add new properties anywhere in the credential and you don't provide a specific context for them they will all go into this catch-all vocab bucket they will all be expanded into this core VC data model new undefined term bucket so.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Can we do.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Have to add new fields to the context know you can rely on the vocab catch-all however it is strongly recommended that you add a new context to finding a new fields.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Does that does that answer your question coyote.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Excellent anyone else.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Questions about tension points rendering posing credentials trust registries.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Oh why don't one other important sort of topic that is an extension point that is currently a hot issue of discussion in the VC working group and that is this notion of mapping from the core if I'm going to choose link data model to other civilizations.
Dmitri Zagidulin: C bar that there are there are multiple VCC realizations in a compressed binary format based on c bar which is like Json but in binary so we have C Boreal D and we have some of the new proposals such as Christopher Allen's gordian credentials such as Sam Smith's AC/DC credentials right so the group is come up with this notion.
Dmitri Zagidulin: If you want to.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Over the wire or on disc format for verifiable credentials to be saved without losing information right so we want to have we want to have both we want to have loss of translation between see realizations but we want to be able to innovate we want to be able to propose new compression methods new.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Isis over the wire methods so the working group is currently discussing this notion of defining a one-way or two-way mapping from the core.
Dmitri Zagidulin: DC link data model to alternative radio stations.
Dmitri Zagidulin: So that's definitely something to keep an eye on as the discussion progresses and as new specification format sorry as new serialization formats get proposed will cover them on a separate VC edu call because might be of interest.
Dmitri Zagidulin: To to this community.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Let's see any other questions.
Dmitri Zagidulin: All right so we will we will talk to you all on the next call.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Wish everyone happy reading of the many specifications in this directory.
<phil_l_(p1)> Great night time reading for sure!
Dmitri Zagidulin: Please open issues pull requests and reach out to members of this community or the co-chairs with any questions that you have.
Dmitri Zagidulin: As felt points out in Chad definitely great nighttime reading.
<david_baumgartner@smarteduwallet> Thanks Dmitri!
<colin_reynolds,_ed_design_lab> Thank you!
<kerri_lemoie> Thanks!
<phil_l_(p1)> Thanks Dmitri~
Dmitri Zagidulin: Thanks all cheers have a great day.