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VC for Education Task Force

Transcript for 2023-06-05

<kerri_lemoie> Hello all - we'll get started in a few minutes.
Our Robot Overlords are scribing.
<kim_duffy> Hoping for Carrie Illinois today
Kerri Lemoie: Okay everybody hello happy Monday this is June 5th the verifiable credentials for Education task force my name is Kerri Lemoie will be remained to see what the transcriber will call me today but we will find out I'm going to go through some boilerplate opening so that we always cover in this call and then we'll take it from there I'm today's agenda is really.
Kerri Lemoie: For the wallets participating in the clutch.
Kerri Lemoie: The Wider Community to learn more about the comprehensive learning record V2 which is one of the edtech specifications.

Topic: IP Note

Kerri Lemoie: Okay first IP note anybody can participate in these calls these are open Community calls and everyone is welcome to join them and discussing them if you are planning to work on any of the standards at the CCD is part of this group then you will want to join the community and sign the IPR agreement and I believe this also applies to plug press participants second call notes.
Kerri Lemoie: These calls are recorded.

Topic: Call Notes

Kerri Lemoie: So I'm video now that we can make available to you if you need it so everything is archived everything is transcribed by our robot transcriber and also recorded So that others can follow along with what we're doing they can't make it on this call or so that you can look it up in the future and in reference this if you need to.
Kerri Lemoie: Next introduction so actually before I move on to number 3 one thing to note is that we follow a queue system on these calls so if you would like to ask a question or have something to say just type Q Plus like so in the chat to add yourself to the queue and to remove yourself from the queue keep - and during the calls we keep an eye on the Queue and try to call folks either in an order or according to you know the topic that were discussing.
Kerri Lemoie: Next is introductions and reintroductions is there.

Topic: Introductions & Reintroductions

Kerri Lemoie: Today who's new to the call or you know has been on the cob would like to introduce themselves.
Kerri Lemoie: You are always welcome to do this throughout the call to yourself up and introduce yourself if you haven't before.

Topic: Announcements & Reminders

Kerri Lemoie: Is announcements and reminders does anybody have any announcements or reminders about the work they are doing or anything else going on conferences meetings other types of special topics that you'd like to bring up now.

Topic: CLR & Plugfest 3

Kerri Lemoie: Then why don't we move on to our main agenda chat for us so today we are going to talk about the comprehensive learner record as part of cluckfest we've been sort of exploring whether we should include other credential standards unlike previous plug fast / we only did open badges three there are more standards that are trying to align with VCS and there are other standards like the CLR that have been in existence.
Kerri Lemoie: So today we want to.
Kerri Lemoie: Topic Ford and I talked about it with with folks on this call and in The Wider community of those who are participating in the plugfest to you know to learn more about it and to see what the interest is and I take it from there I'm going to put Tracy is here Tracy Tracy course Moe is joining us because he has occurred two ladies working on North Dakota and Tracy and let me know if I'm getting your title.
Kerri Lemoie: Wrong but I think you're the leader of the state longitudinal.
Kerri Lemoie: Service in North Dakota right and you've been working in the space for quite a long time.
Tracy_Korsmo: Yeah hello everybody Tracy course well here I am the program manager the Statewide longitudinal data system here in the state which comprises education and Workforce data warehouses and through that project we've expanded into digital credentialing through the collab usage partnering with Randa as well as PCG and.
Tracy_Korsmo: we've published the North Dakota.
Tracy_Korsmo: Transcript which is a centralized service here in the state as a digital credential to a wallet and that is a comprehensive learner record as well from that then we've expanded into post-secondary as well as more K-12 with the welding certificates post-secondary really concentrating on cybersecurity stackable credentials through certificates to Associates to Bachelors to a master's degree in cyber security.
Tracy_Korsmo: And more recently we're working with the licensing organization our health and human services here in the state issues EMT the EMR EMT Advanced EMT and the paramedic credentials here in the state and that's what we're currently working with right now which is really interesting because I think that North Dakota is firmly grounded in just accepting the national standards testing on that sorry I'm forgetting.
Tracy_Korsmo: in the organization.
Tracy_Korsmo: But it's just a national test that is accepted in North Dakota along with about 20 other states so it has Interstate use so that's where we're headed with the EMT is issuing that as a digital credential today that's kind of an introduction Cary how would you like me to expand on.
Kerri Lemoie: Yeah thank you for that introduction I was great Tracy I think you set the stage here to maybe next week and talk about how you're approaching publishing this standard and the various parts and if you have anything to show us that might be helpful for those who have never really seen the sealer.
Tracy_Korsmo: Sure so let me pull up my test wallet here.
Kerri Lemoie: You should be able to show your screen.
Tracy_Korsmo: Okay so screen sharing.
Kerri Lemoie: Yes I can see it thank you.
Tracy_Korsmo: Okay are you guys seeing my screen yet okay so here is the open credential publisher wallet that I'm logging into right now.
Tracy_Korsmo: And so basically all the.
Tracy_Korsmo: She'll ours that have been published to me this is obviously a test account as well as open badges are sitting in here if I look at a North Dakota High School transcript visually this is a summary of the transcript and essentially the course grades but if I get into the details of the transcript you'll see that it is verifiable credential debut three see the proof and the CLR Kyle be verified the learner as well.
Tracy_Korsmo: as the publisher and each one we do.
Tracy_Korsmo: Embedded evidence to help with the cold start of sharing clrs we can do a pdf version of that.
Tracy_Korsmo: And then we just get into the details of a North Dakota High School transcript and bringing it down to the level of an individual course the issuer being Great Plains High School with its public key the results as well as alignments and this is referencing the case North Dakota case Network.
Tracy_Korsmo: We have the state course code defined as well as an alignment to the national state course codes the sked codes so that is the metadata reference to the course definition and the competencies and skills related to that going back to the wall at if I look at a non transcript type here this is career-ready practices work based learning it's kind of like 21st century skills if you will.
Tracy_Korsmo: so this is just a.
Tracy_Korsmo: Issue to the student and this has course transfer abilities to community colleges and in this credential here you're going to see a reference to not only the competencies represented here in North Dakota for that credential but you will also see a reference to the credential engine.
Tracy_Korsmo: So here's karate practices as in the credential registry here in North Dakota and that's kind of where we're leaning with most of our recognized credentials in the state is they'll be at least in the credential registry and in some cases there will be articulation of the skills and competencies in the case Network as well.
Tracy_Korsmo: So what I look at what we're currently working on in mind you these are not published clrs these are uploaded clrs but if I look at like an EMT.
Tracy_Korsmo: EMT at this time is not defined as competencies or skills as that should be a national publication of those but we do have the credential engine definition here in North Dakota sorry about this anyway that is a credential engine and the definition in the credential engine I'll stop there and answer any questions.
Kerri Lemoie: Make sure to yes we have money you in the queue right now somebody why don't you go ahead with your first question.
Manu Sporny: Sure thanks Kerry Tracy this is this is really cool really loving the demo so far I noticed that you've been saying that some of this is CL are I saw an open badges thing in there as well I take it like this wallet contains both types of Records in there is that is that right or II I'm getting confused between.
Manu Sporny: In like what's the badge and.
<kerri_lemoie> Example structure of a CLR v2 in the spec:
Manu Sporny: What CLR and is there any overlap between the two you know what.
<manu_sporny> Thanks Kerri ^ above is helpful, looking now.
Tracy_Korsmo: Okay so what we've done in this project is we do allow the individuals to connect to OB 2.1 connections and pull in any badges they have through a badging vendor and bring that into your wallet so the open badge hold on a second so now you'll see that.
Tracy_Korsmo: I can pull in any.
Tracy_Korsmo: Churches that have been published to Badger right now and put them into my wallet.
Tracy_Korsmo: So what you're seeing here is the badges that I have pulled into my wallet and so.
<kerri_lemoie> 2.1 (2.0) badges are not aligned with W3C Verifiable Credentials
Tracy_Korsmo: I can verify this badge with a badger as well but more importantly I can embed this in a CLR and once it's embedded in a CLR it's really not verifiable anymore because it's just self-assertion if you will and that's one of the reasons for OB 3.0 to be able to verify publish and verifiable credential is now I can publish that as essentially a single assertion CLR.
Tracy_Korsmo: so now it's verifiable.
Manu Sporny: Yes thank you.
Tracy_Korsmo: In the credential itself that makes sense and then I could curate a collection here just by simply choosing which clrs I want to combine if you will in a presentation and creating a collection and then I could literally share that collection out so if an employer or somebody wants to receive three credentials that I have I don't have.
Tracy_Korsmo: have to send them three requests.
Tracy_Korsmo: To receive them or share them three different times I could curate a collection of them more like a job resume if you will and just share the.
Kerri Lemoie: Can't you see we have a couple more people in the queue would you like to present more would you like to answer questions first.
Kerri Lemoie: And Kimberly you are next.
Kimberly Linson: I was actually just going to share a couple of things that I think helped in this open badge versus CL are formatting like like how do you choose when do you choose why do you choose and so Tracy I don't do I need to do you need to stop sharing for me to share or can I start hearing if I just.
Kerri Lemoie: I think case you would have to stop yeah then you can start over there you did.
Tracy_Korsmo: I think I stopped.
Kimberly Linson: Okay so I I have been doing a bit of analysis around am I showing my are you seeing a welding American Welding Society license oh good okay it's very tiny on my screen so this I'm going to show you two different credentials and I think this is where the conversation has to start around.
Kimberly Linson: Kind of credential format are you using this American Welding Society license and and we do a lot of our work is in professional licensure so that's what I'm going to I like to talk about but this one you can see this is American Welding Society is issuing organization there is basically one assertion this person is a welding inspector they have there's a license number associated with it.
Kimberly Linson: Some signatures and what not but this.
Kimberly Linson: Could probably be accommodated by What Would by the open batch right it really is asserting one thing the problem becomes when how do I undo share.
Kimberly Linson: Okay there and then I can.
Kimberly Linson: Is the Colorado teachers license and we actually as a part of the work we're doing on the NG a project wanted to make this an open badge we thought that was going to be just the easiest and smoothest way to transport this data from our system into the my Colorado app and into teacher wallet but unfortunately what we ran into was that because of the way that there are so many endorsements and then even these children underneath the.
Kimberly Linson: Endorsements that you probably can see.
Kimberly Linson: Nations that you can have different designations and so because there's so much parent and child reaction inside of this license this is why like the CLR is good and when Tracy shows the transcript or when we look at at EMTs and we think about all the things that go underneath their license that's why the comprehensive learner record really made sense for this particular license but I think.
Kimberly Linson: I think that's one of the.
Kimberly Linson: That I want to say is that the decision about what try not to unsure about which format which standard format to use is about which one is going to reduce the most friction right is it is are you only trying to say one thing then open badges probably the right choice if you're trying to say lots of things then CLR is probably the right choice.
Kerri Lemoie: Thanks Kimberly and I'm going to call it an unfilled because he's next in the queue but I was wondering the Tracy or or Kimberly if you have the structure for what it looked like one of these clrs would look like the actual like metadata so that those who have wallets could look at see what that looks like like a real example because I think the one in the bathroom the CLR spec isn't quite as like quite like yours because what are you if you.
Kerri Lemoie: Have any of that you could.
Tracy_Korsmo: I should have some Json.
Kerri Lemoie: Perfect let me let me call on on fill and then maybe we could take a look at that that would be really helpful still anyway yes.
Phil Long: Yes hi can you hear me okay great Tracy nights great great presentation so far and in Kimberly already address I had two parts to my question the first way is to go into a little bit more about alignments because I think that's unique to the CLR in the badge space and and Kimberly Hint it to it and by saying that alignments actually pertain to the relationship among either assertions.
Phil Long: Endorsements if you will to a particular transcript which is effect effectively the documentation of the diploma or degree but I think Kimberly talked about that and the only thing I would add to it is that it's it's more it can be more than parent-child it can be a circumstance where the illiterate where the alignment indicates that there is a set of six courses at particular.
Phil Long: Relationship to the one on.
<kerri_lemoie> @tracy - do you have the JSON-LD for the EMT credential?
Phil Long: And you have to take one of these six in order to be able to complete the overall degree requirement and things like that it's the stuff registrar's a lot of because it distinguishes the thinking that went behind the set of experiences that a student took in the pursuit of their of their diploma the second question I was going to ask was really about.
Phil Long: Different differentiation in the CLR between the publisher and the issuer and you might want to spend a few minutes just making sure people are clear on that because I think that's also unique to the CLR structure thanks.
Tracy_Korsmo: I think you have quite a few questions in their fellow but you know when it comes to the publisher versus the issuer in North Dakota we set up the state a state node if you will of a publisher so we at the state ourselves authorized any entity that we want to issue underneath the brand of North Dakota it does not mean that the state is issuing a high school.
Tracy_Korsmo: script the issue.
Tracy_Korsmo: Is still the high school but the state is doing the publishing of the CLR on behalf of the high school is that where you wanted to articulate that Phil.
Phil Long: Yes I think that the notion there that you correctly point out is that there's a publisher and there's an issuer and this particular case I think the issuer is the local organization if you will or the most local in the context of the hierarchy of institutional relationships and and the state is the publisher is that correct yeah so that's why I think that that distinction is unique to the CLR.
Phil Long: Of to an issue were always in a.
Phil Long: Me or or other kinds of badge it is it is there's one entity that is the issuer either the person's self issues or a third-party issues something to a person but but in the case of C large distinct.
Tracy_Korsmo: So this you know I think maybe our CLR terminology right now might be a little bit misleading because we are calling it The Publisher is the Great Plains High School but it was published through an open ends are open credential publisher installed by the state of North Dakota authorizing Great Plains High School to publish and that's a good point is.
Tracy_Korsmo: each one of these credentials is.
Tracy_Korsmo: An issuer but up here we are still calling the publisher Great Plains High School this could be the state of North Dakota.
Phil Long: Yeah that would be helpful to probably normalize in some fashion that's great and the other thing I guess is the difference between CLR one and CLR to in part is that the course that you're considering as an entity in C LR V to at least is the same data structure in bit for bit as an OB V 3 it's it is a badge.
Phil Long: Edge in the data structure it's simply called in.
Phil Long: And as and as a consequence can be individually signed if the organization wishes to do so.
Tracy_Korsmo: Yeah each one of these I could there could actually be an image associated with each one of these assertions and we could even call it a type badge so an OB 30 is simply a single assertion same structure as in the CLR.
Phil Long: And it's helpful to the to the group thank you Kerry.
Kerri Lemoie: Sure thank you I'm going to pull myself out of the queue for now and let Greco and Greg he grabbed the floor there.
Kerri Lemoie: I'll come back.
Greg Bernstein: Hi I've been working on this is great Bernstein I've been working on the test vectors and things like that for a bunch of the security Suites and most recently been doing a lot of work with BBs and selective disclosure I went and looked at the CLR before this talk and I was looking through the document because I wanted a complicated transcript to apply selective disclosure.
Greg Bernstein: There were no.
Greg Bernstein: Document and I see you've got these great examples do you also have desires as far as functionality related to selective disclosure as we're looking at BBS and a bunch of other ways to do selective disclosures what kind of functionality you want is that documented would you like to discuss it that's kind of Prime on our plates for some of us right now and having.
Greg Bernstein: Some good examples I saw you had like 58 assertions of full.
Greg Bernstein: Script that would be great to work with for comparing different methods of selective disclosure.
<phil_t3> @Greg Berstein - which CLR were you looking at? (CLRv1 or CLRv2?)
Tracy_Korsmo: If I would be willing to publish a high school transcript to North Dakota wallet if you want Greg if you're looking for.
Greg Bernstein: Okay send me a link and such sand I can I it love the Json and also if there's people that would give feedback about besides mandatory disclosure of a subset or maybe other complicated things that you don't.
Greg Bernstein: Things taken out of context when you're doing selective disclosure these are some of these rough Notions trying to figure out what we want to do with Selective disclosure and the features we want with it when we take the raw crypto and apply it to the credentials so not don't need an answer now but it's people want to talk about these kind of desires as we map between crypto and the credentials and how we do this that would be great.
<kim_duffy> Is that a selective disclosure signature suite per se or just separately issued/signed claims (in the CLR)?
Tracy_Korsmo: Yeah I think as we're you know I'm actually seeing students sharing their High School transcript with colleges today we've had a couple of them the problem with North Dakota's use case is we have a centralized State e transcript system already and we can send out a state albeit PDFs but so it is.
Tracy_Korsmo: really handles North Dakota of needs quiet.
Tracy_Korsmo: All where the value comes for the high school students is when they're graduated in need to show evidence in the high school transcript they can you know provide that transcript to a future employer education institution so we've had a couple of do that on their own so that's work but I think the use cases of how this is going to work the EMT first responder is a really good example of how this would work in this.
Tracy_Korsmo: First responder trying to get access into an emergency response scenario well first responder is any of those four categories in the v of an EMT through a paramedic but if I'm a paramedic I can pretty much ignore the fact that I'm an EMT or Advanced EMT because that Trump's them all so now I have okay well how do I get this down to a single top credential but then it also is a policeman fireman.
Tracy_Korsmo: emergency medical personnel.
Tracy_Korsmo: So how does that work in emergency response there's a QR code that is requesting 56 different credentials and then I selectively disclosed all five of those so the use cases are just starting to kind of play out now if that makes sense.
Greg Bernstein: Cool cool yeah I didn't think about that one that's real good.
Tracy_Korsmo: Yeah and Kimberly you're working I think you're working with digital bizarre on just conceptually how First Responders work.
Kimberly Linson: Yes we're just starting at work and I think man who was actually on here too and I'm sure we'll talk more about that I also am thinking about the work we're doing with education Design Lab and you know they have a very interesting you know assessment you got for assessments and then there's an overarching credential that sort of goes on top of those and being able to disclose you know part of that all of that none of the underlying but but the top.
Kimberly Linson: Kit level comes to mind.
Kimberly Linson: So I definitely would love to talk more about about it.
Kerri Lemoie: Great thanks everybody my money you are in the queue but if you don't mind I'm going to switch my hats for a second and then I will call on you I'll put my question yeah I'm going to put on my my DCC and Standards Developer hat instead of my bcig hard just just for a moment I'm going to sit back up a little bit maybe I'm wearing both hats but you know I'm trying so as the deed as a wallet developer what we've been what we've been doing during.
Kerri Lemoie: During plugfest right what it was about because her podcast is.
Kerri Lemoie: Individual downloads of wallet and then they connect with the issuer to retrieve their credential there's some did off that happens where the issuer checks to make sure that that identity is signed and then it is published just reassign us publish it is returned back to the wallet where the individual can choose to accept it or not and this has been the flow that were using during cluckfest and in that so what I'm wondering as a wallet provider how would that EMT.
Kerri Lemoie: How would all of those credentials and the over.
Kerri Lemoie: Inner work in that way they would they all be individually signed and issued to that single ID with the same issue and state could you walk us through how that power while it should handle a COR like that.
Kerri Lemoie: I guess it's your Kimberly because Kimberly is here too so either of you really thanks.
Tracy_Korsmo: Is that a question to me well I'm assuming that there's going to be request for five different clrs and so categorizing or typecasting that CLR it's pretty important that that that phase to the way I'm thinking about right now is it's going to have to be a request for law enforcement it's going to have to be a request.
Tracy_Korsmo: for you know.
Tracy_Korsmo: Firefighting credentials or request for EMT credentials so to me that's a single qr-code asking for multiple types of clrs but that's I'm in my infancy of understanding this at this.
Kerri Lemoie: Okay Kimberly do you want to take that on.
Kimberly Linson: Well I'm going to I'm going to say I feel like chappie is the chappie everyone knows here at chop he's my answer for all problems but man who can you tell me whether chappie would be the right call here.
Manu Sporny: Maybe so I think this is a the answer I think all right now Kimberly is maybe I can see how it how it might work but let me back up a bit to something crazy said before we are you know working with Randa to try in figure out how exactly how these types of presentations could happen in the real world our background is in in.
Manu Sporny: Employing this stuff.
Manu Sporny: He'll sector so think about you know somebody checking out at a retail counter we have deployed verifiable credentials into that ecosystem through the true Edge program 150,000 stores across the u.s. yada yada yada and one of the things that Tracy said is something that we do in that scenario meaning that an individual walks up in initiates an interaction at the register so this is an individual initiating a transaction at.
Manu Sporny: The register using a qr-code.
Manu Sporny: Then the point of sale you know connects digital wallet in the cloud and basically asked for multiple credentials and I think that's where the kind of the core of what Tracy was talking about and what Kimberly was talking about Kerry was talking about you know exactly how that is done is currently being worked through so there are a couple of ways that we could do it one of them is we look at all of these.
Manu Sporny: Initials as atomic things like if they were.
Manu Sporny: Completely separate open badges they were kind of self-contained things whoever is requesting these credentials could request each one individually so that's one way it could be done and that could be done through chappie the other way it could potentially be done is by doing specific sub queries into a CLR where maybe there's some data within the CLR that's digitally signed and the dish.
Manu Sporny: The wild could pluck that data out of the.
Manu Sporny: In just send it individually adjust for the things that were asked for that's pretty complicated to do meaning like the digital wallet would have to have a pretty deep understanding of like the CLR and how its constructed and what it's used for in those are really the two approaches that come to mind so Kimberly yes chappie could be used for both mechanisms the query protocol would probably be pretty different in both situations.
Manu Sporny: Um you know my gut feel right now is that you know a simpler more Atomic you know mechanism might be best or a way for you know a wall to pluck those credentials out of the CLR might be best however those wallets are going to have to be pretty knowledgeable about the CLR data format whereas many of the Wallets on the market today you know are not so there's some really interesting I think design questions and ecosystem questions.
Manu Sporny: Is there.
Manu Sporny: Things like that like what Tracy said the first responder you know the request for like five credentials and that scenario is going to really inform you know what these protocols look like what you know minimum functionality for a wallet might look like and it may even you know impact the standards that were you know in the middle of creating hopefully that was a helpful answer.
Kerri Lemoie: Thanks honey that was really helpful Chase your Kimberly do you do you want to reply to that respond to that.
Tracy_Korsmo: No I'm just happy that people are looking at this scenario.
<phil_t3> Does the BBS+ selective disclosure approach also require a the deep knowledge of the CLRv2 structure?
Kerri Lemoie: But we don't have anyone in the queue right now while it folks if you have your question sir they're heading to yourself up I'm sort of putting myself in the queue right there just just to keep the conversation going but also to follow up on something that money my name is said which is is the complexity of this and there is so much value in the complexity when we first started talking about issuing open badges as verifiable credentials in like two years ago I'm a.
Kerri Lemoie: Just pretty much we are going for the simple simple approach we're like great we have this one simple.
<manu_sporny> kinda/sorta, Phil -- the selective disclosure stuff gets far more difficult the more complex the VC is.
Kerri Lemoie: The one single achievement we're going to go ahead and try and get this aligned so we can get that going and it around the same time the conversation started about the complex credentials and which is which is important there's a lot of complexity that happens in the world right and we need that also at this stage just just in my opinion of where we are with plugfest and ecosystem we have a lot of work to do just from the simple side still very just from the one-offs of like somebody graduated yes or no or.
Kerri Lemoie: Somebody is enrolled.
Kerri Lemoie: He was employed like just these super like micro credentials not official microcredit has micro versions of credentials are a lot easier for the wallets to ingest right now as the protocols and the software exists Kim you are in the you have the floor sorry go ahead.
<greg_bernstein> There's a mapping process between the credential and the simple "list" of statements that BBS works with.
Geun-Hyung Kim: Thanks and I was quickly scanning the CLR respect to refresh my memory and it's it's exploded since the last time I saw it so forgive me if these are basic questions you know so in the verifiable credential ecosystem generally we've been using concept of verifiable presentations sort of conceptually similar to CLR I would say with the exception that.
Geun-Hyung Kim: At the scene.
<phil_t3> It might be easier if a wallet could simply extract the OBv3 representative single assertions, which then the wallet knows what to do with....
<phil_t3> That is extract it from the CLRv2 compound credential
Geun-Hyung Kim: More fit for purpose you know it has the roll like so a verifiable presentation or you know similar constructs could be used to achieve as a CLR but a CLR has the terminology and the concepts that people in this space would be familiar with like the idea of issuer being separate from you know whatever granting institution the thing that because the.
Geun-Hyung Kim: Peck is big I wasn't able to get a.
<manu_sporny> yes ^ (but that presumes wallets know how to do that)
Geun-Hyung Kim: Of was how suitable it is for you know sort of selective disclosure and I briefly ask this question before it wasn't clear if the CLR itself is meant to be this atomically atomically issued thing like I know we've talked about being able we talked about selective disclosure but we haven't been precise about what we're doing there like.
Geun-Hyung Kim: Is that necessarily like.
<phil_t3> The CLRv2 now supports the signature suites of the VC DM v1.1
Geun-Hyung Kim: CLR now necessarily support flexible Signature suites are we assuming that the issuer is sort of doing or some something clever behind the scenes to make it selectively disclosable just sort of curious about how that works right now and I know Kimberly mentioned that they've been ran has been working on something with digital bizarre so maybe what they're working on represents the future of the spec so just curious.
Geun-Hyung Kim: For more details on that.
Kerri Lemoie: Tracy or Kimberly to you.
<manu_sporny> Digital Bazaar are noobs when it comes to CLR :)
<manu_sporny> RANDA are the experts there
Kimberly Linson: I don't really have a reply but I have another I have a question for you Kim that maybe you can help me understand around verifiable presentations so so my understanding is that the benefit of a CLR is that it persists over time it's just a credential and you've got it and it exists.
Kimberly Linson: In a.
Kimberly Linson: Itself whereas a presentation a verifiable presentation when you package it together it is usable and then it doesn't exist anymore is that.
Geun-Hyung Kim: In practice that's how a lot of people have been using it I think the main thing is the CLR I mean I guess what I'm getting at is what are the what are the sort of like benefits of the CLR over you know some some likes a TBD other format and it does seem to be the sort of like the fit.
Geun-Hyung Kim: A purpose nature of.
Geun-Hyung Kim: Curious about like how the Signature suites are implemented or what's the Assumption about the Signature suites and sort of issues like subject holder binding and all of that how like how it's implemented now and how it might be in the future and Manu is queued up he might have the answer on that it sounds like he's been thinking about it already.
Kerri Lemoie: My guy having calling you if you'd like even if you don't have the answer to this that's okay.
Manu Sporny: Yeah I love how much Kim believes that I have an answer I don't unfortunately there's a there's a high-level answer right so so specifically I mean R&R the experts here that's that's with respect to CLR I I can speak to the crypto sweets primarily we are.
Manu Sporny: Actively working.
Manu Sporny: Just standard plain old vanilla digital signatures would which would work just fine for you know CLR V2 we are also you know we announced this selective disclosure scheme that's compliant with nist which is important for government in a large Enterprise use cases so that just went out to the mailing list last week talking about you know a selective disclosure mechanism that we could support that selective disclosure.
Manu Sporny: Mechanism mechanism is probably better suited for open badges.
Manu Sporny: It's like large documents like like the CLR it could potentially still work there but we are very early days with that and so we're going to have to you know one of the things I'm sure we'll work on with Randall and this is how it applies to see lrv to and if we need to you know rethink some of the design you know around the crypto sweet or CL are there and then finally there are other cryptographic sweets that just have very.
Manu Sporny: Three they have a hard time with.
Manu Sporny: Documents of the more complex the document is the more difficult you know it is to kind of do a selective disclosure of that thing so when we're talking about selective disclosure in this space it sounds like we're talking about two potential ways of doing selective disclosure the first one is to kind of a demise the thing into multiple different verifiable credentials which is kind of like the open badges approach and use presentations as Kim mentioned or the other you know selective disclosure is like I really do want to.
Manu Sporny: Share like some parts of this document.
Manu Sporny: So you know at CLR that contains all the classes that are taken or something of that nature being able to selectively disclose certain classes would be something that we could look at but of course I think would be really difficult to do with at least the cryptographic you know selective disclosure mechanism so I don't know if that was helpful or not Kim but that's all I have for now I put myself.
Manu Sporny: On the queue for a different.
Manu Sporny: And Riku for that.
Geun-Hyung Kim: Yes so that is helpful in I though it pitches on some of maybe bigger questions and I recall re-queue myself for that.
Kerri Lemoie: All right thanks Kim and Manu you have the floor now.
Phil Long: Yeah and I invite anybody who has been part of the CLR work group to step in here as well but my understanding of the cor men mostly focusing now on CL R V2 is it is a document within a document it is an embedded structure which adds to this complexity and one can sign the outer credential in which the embedded credentials of individual course.
Phil Long: Is reside.
<kim_duffy> That's helpful Phil, thanks
Phil Long: Consigned the outer credential and the inner credential excuse me the inner credentials that is the individual 0p V 3s that represent the courses or other badges that might be associated with this compound document and and they're in my sort of the challenge for the wallet because the I do agree with manner that the simpler approach my wallet perspective is you just be able to parse out if it's a CL R V2.
Phil Long: The relevant.
Phil Long: Visual obv three is that represent courses which an individual may wish to have grouped together and send and not the rest of their transcript because presumably the Target or audience for this for this transcript or for this set of information is basically interested in specific aspects of the person's background and training and not necessarily the fact that they took theater and basket weaving and and had an internship.
Phil Long: On with some nonprofit as.
Phil Long: Anshel so the challenge is that it is the case that when you parse out the individual obv threes they and they are individually signed they are still coherent individually provable obv threes but the oh if you do that then I'm not clear that there is any risk that the CLR V2 itself as the outer envelope has may have been violated and there.
Phil Long: R4 they over.
<kim_duffy> right
Phil Long: True that that was intended by the way these things are put together with their associations that describe the reasons this particular credential is been designed the way it is might be might be lost thanks.
Tracy_Korsmo: Yeah and and so listen Tracy here I think my use case on that one is I have published in official High School transcript the minute a student starts sharing off individual certian 's I cannot refer to that as an official High School transcript anymore so those are some of the use cases that were looking at and I just looked at an apprenticeship and it requires a high.
Tracy_Korsmo: And passing grade in Algebra 1 in high school perfect use case student sending out diploma not the transcript in a single course.
<manu_sporny> Interesting, Tracy -- right, so you really don't want to be able to selectively disclose this stuff (on many occasions).
Phil Long: Right and in that particular case if I can jump in the if one if the wallet could parse out that individual course and send it as a single assertion credential BB3 they could still send the outer envelope of the transcript which is the diploma itself correct.
Tracy_Korsmo: Well if I'm thinking of a diploma as something that we haven't published yet I'm thinking of a plumber is just a certificate of high school completion and nothing about grades at all.
Phil Long: It's oh no bv3 essentially.
Tracy_Korsmo: Exactly it should be embedded in the CLR I'm sorry it should be embedded in high school transcript as an OB 3.
<manu_sporny> "All these things belong together and constitute a transcript... you can't break them apart AND call it a transcript."
Phil Long: Right right so then you take out to credentials from the OBD2 from the CLR V2 and have those as the things that you send thank.
Kerri Lemoie: Pizza I'm running a little bit low on time so I'll try to be quick with my question I'm in in the EMT CLR so you'd have liked the overall EMT and then the other credentials associated with it for the other roles or skills right that comprised of that EMT certification would each of those credentials be signed by the same issuer.
Kerri Lemoie: And would they.
Kerri Lemoie: With one expires do they did not invalidate the whole CLR to like Howard verifiers handle that how would they verify the signatures and also the validation of them of each one individually.
Tracy_Korsmo: Well in North Dakota it is a single state agency that issues the certificate or license in that Arena they're the single Authority in the state so they they would be the issuer of all four of the credentials.
Tracy_Korsmo: But once again one-to-many could be revoked by the licensing body as well.
Kerri Lemoie: And if that was the case with the wholesaler would get reissued of say one of them was revoked did reassured me one.
Kerri Lemoie: I'm going to I'm going to move us forward here Kim Kim back pain.
Geun-Hyung Kim: I think one thing that stands out so I'm going to point to the what seems to be the use cases like as an issuer I want to do this as a publisher I want to do that like I noticed that there's no individual subject learner use cases in there and then also the parts so that the discussion we've had just now it seems like CLR might be useful for more narrow set of use cases where it's.
Geun-Hyung Kim: Like you.
<phil_t3> @Manu - the registrars of HE institutions see the complex set as the thing the institution is asserting. The individual courses as OBv3s can be parsed, sent and verified, but it depends on who at the institution is signing the individual OBv3s (the Department Chair of the discipline or Dean iof the School, etc.)
<manu_sporny> ^ makes sense, thanks Phil
<phil_t3> @Manu the 'complex set' is the transcript
Geun-Hyung Kim: This whole package or like very limited set of packages you know so like the diploma or whatever makes sense verifiable presentations allow the holder to more flexibly combined VC so I think like outside of this sort of more you know specific set of you know very how do you say like aligned kind of you know we don't want the whole.
Geun-Hyung Kim: Order to be able to share.
Geun-Hyung Kim: Anything other than this and its complete form it seems like it's more advantageous for the learner to have like feces and be able to aggregate them into presentations as they see fit now I get the idea with registrar's for example like they're not going to let certain combinations of those fly in fact each issue or will have that kind of decision but it seems like it is interesting that a lot of CLR seems really bound to this publisher use case which I.
Geun-Hyung Kim: Would argue is kind of.
Geun-Hyung Kim: This model then a you know sort of like individual being able to assert their you know their representation so I do wonder what specific use cases like for the jmf plugfest we would want to use this for and making sure that we sort of you know get it for the right combination of use cases.
Geun-Hyung Kim: But we can come back.
<phil_t3> The community of registrars is getting more comfortable with the ides of the Transcript sigened (outer credential) AND individual courses signed (as OBv3s) to give the students agency in representing themselves to 3rd parties
Kerri Lemoie: Okay my name is.
Manu Sporny: Yeah real quick and I don't think we need it we're just short on time what have we won't be able to cover this today question 2 consists of you know as a wallet implementer so our organization builds a wallet we demonstrated interop with you know Randa in a variety of other companies during the jmf plugfest to I'm I'm like I'm trying to wonder what our wallet needs to do to support CLR can we just treated.
Manu Sporny: Does a big verifiable credential blob and then.
<phil_t3> AACRAO has been advocating this approach (out credential and inner credentials as OBv3s both signed)
Manu Sporny: Because for that blob and we'll hand it over from our wallet or will we be required to probe into that CL R 2 and R stand the inner workings of it and maybe provide things from within the credential so that's one of the main questions that's kind of hanging on my mind as we as we talk through this but this is really it was a great presentation thank you so much Tracy and you know rainbow for putting it together really exciting stuff.
Kerri Lemoie: Yeah thanks Ryan think Tracy new we're almost here but Sharon is here the Q we're going to let her closes here sharing you our last question.
Sharon Leu: Oh I I feel like Kim mostly got my question but I'm just not entirely clear what is the utility of in the use case of the EMT like having a seal our versus just open badge version 3s and I know that there has been some discussion about which sort of interpretation of the VC is right for what circumstance and I think I'm just trying to put in my mind like the different things that I heard today and just trying.
Sharon Leu: To figure out like what makes them a sense but I think that maybe.
Sharon Leu: Act and so I think what I'm going to do is I'm going to email this as a question to the list sir I think that like to your point Manu like it's overly complex to suggest that for any plugfest that are coming up that we would say not only do you accept the CLR VC blob but that you'd be able to interrogate it because I think that it hasn't been demonstrated all yet and there's not really a reference for how that's done so I think that that will probably be like a hold for much much later for.
Sharon Leu: This is like using.
<phil_t3> Sounds like CHAPIv2 (LOL)
<manu_sporny> haha :)
Sharon Leu: More simpler credentials but again I don't not 100% sure I'm clear on the entirety of this issue so I'll pose it to the listserv and I think we can continue having that discussion there.
<kayode_ezike> It strikes me that a critical decision is which party to place greater responsibility on for interop
Phil Long: +1 Kayode
Kerri Lemoie: Yeah that sounds great Sharon Tracy and and Kimberly thank you so much for coming here today because I we all have a lot of questions about the CLR and I think we're going to continue learning about it and trying to figure out how to how to work with it there's a whole lot of iterations of questions in ways that it could be used so thank you for the work that you're doing we appreciate you and thank you for coming here today so I'm thanks all let's keep talking about this and the plugfest and.
Kerri Lemoie: Hope you all have a wonderful week.
<sharon_leu> thanks, all!
<colin_reynolds,_ed_design_lab> Thank you!
Manu Sporny: +1 Thank you Tracy, Kimberly, all! :)