The W3C Credentials Community Group

Meeting Transcriptions and Audio Recordings (2014-today)

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VC for Education Task Force

Transcript for 2023-07-10

<kerri_lemoie> Hello all
<julie_keane> Hey!
<adam_eunson_(tangle_labs)> :wave:
<adam_eunson_(tangle_labs)> Hello from sunny Switzerland :D
<maarten_boender> Present
Our Robot Overlords are scribing.
<doug_belshaw> Serge and I were in the Google Meet, lol
Kerri Lemoie: Hello everybody Welcome to the Monday July 10th verify the credentials for Education task force call my name is Perry lavoie transcriber might call me Cary Illinois but really I'm sorry look like today our main topic is open recognition we have a Julie Smith and a out here to present when you kick off a discussion about open recognition and verifiable steps.
Kerri Lemoie: So let me get a few things.

Topic: IP Note

Kerri Lemoie: And then we will get going first thing is to know that anybody can participate in these calls these are open calls but if you intend to do any work on any credential community group spec then you should join the clinical community group and inside me I pr agreement that information is in the agenda link that I put in the chat follow that their reach out to me if you are serious about becoming a signed up man.
Kerri Lemoie: Our of the TCG.

Topic: Call Notes

Kerri Lemoie: Also note that these calls are recorded and there are minutes and everything is to add a public page and it was archives there you can see it later with the calls are over we typically send out an email within a day or so with the published minute also note that we use accused festivities called so we really encourage discussion we want to make sure that everybody has a chance.
Kerri Lemoie: So if you are you look at the question of.

Topic: Introductions & Reintroductions

Kerri Lemoie: And the conversation piece of paper to press like I just did in the chat and then you can also take a few - you take yourself out of the few okay and before I would get going couple other things one is I'm introductions and re-inspection is there anybody that's new to the call today that would like to introduce themselves if so you can see yourself up in the chat and this includes anybody who would also like to reproduce themselves oh and one other thing.
Kerri Lemoie: In addition to typing to you or a few- you.
Kerri Lemoie: The other hand.
Kerri Lemoie: At the level of navigation I see that you have to give yourself up.
Eric: Yep hi everybody so I'm new to the school I'm a pretty girl John Q working on the solution called pockets for Arizona State University and yeah I guess that's it I'm the engineering manager for the team that's pretty much it.
<adam_eunson_(tangle_labs)> I'd like to say hi.
Kerri Lemoie: Thank you I think 20 teaching yourself.
Kerri Lemoie: Adam I think you there cat how are you.
Adam_Eunson_(Tangle_Labs): Thank you very much I'm great thank you I'm Adam I'm just one of the founders from Tango Labs which is a German company that we're currently working on interoperable Solutions in self Sovereign identity I had the pleasure of meeting Dimitri actually in dice in Zurich not long ago and he invited me to participate because our Focus currently is with UNESCO learning institute's and cities in the EU working towards an interoperable loner identity ecosystem.
Adam_Eunson_(Tangle_Labs): whatever one of those will end up peeing.
Adam_Eunson_(Tangle_Labs): One of our focus is actually working towards a sort of Universal open source badge data model specification so that's something that that's kind of in the pipeline's is purely based on D ID and verifiable credentials so it's great to be here thank you.
Dmitri Zagidulin: From Adam really glad to have you here.
Manu Sporny: +1 Welcome Adam! :)
Adam_Eunson_(Tangle_Labs): Hey how you doing awesome how is di web sorry I'm digressing.
Adam_Eunson_(Tangle_Labs): Yeah I'd love to at some point.
Kerri Lemoie: Thanks for joining us Adam and I love to hear more about what you working on maybe you can present on some call great thank you.
Adam_Eunson_(Tangle_Labs): My wife's off work so if I do work next week I get killed.
<julie_keane> staying married is important
Manu Sporny: +1
<adam_eunson_(tangle_labs)> Hell yeah
<adam_eunson_(tangle_labs)> :D
Kerri Lemoie: Let you out figure that out we can figure that out okay don't see any other introductions or reintroductions it makes you have to be paying married is important and I was wondering if anybody has an announcement or reminders that they would like to share if so why don't you go ahead and kill yourself up and let us know - hi.
Manu Sporny: Request: Demonstration of Support for Selective Disclosure for Data Integrity --
Manu Sporny: Hey thanks Gary one quick and we are trying to close up the demonstrations of support for Selective disclosure for data Integrity so there was an email that was sent out to the verifiable sorry credentials community group about showing support for Selective disclosure for data Integrity of put that email in the.
Manu Sporny: Chat Channel.
<manu_sporny> Selective Disclosure for W3C Data Integrity --
Manu Sporny: For those of you that hadn't heard about it this is basically a way of selectively disclosing something in a verifiable credential so think if a student has a student ID and it's got a lot of their information in it as a verifiable credential this selective disclosure mechanism would allow them to just disclose like the university that they attend without losing any of the other information last name first.
Manu Sporny: First name.
Manu Sporny: Or so without disclosing their personally identifiable information we are getting ready to raise a set of pull requests in the verifiable credential working group and we would like to make sure that we've got support from this community before we do that there is a sign-up sheet so there's a presentation that I linked to in the chat Channel selected disclosure for w3c data Integrity in.
Manu Sporny: And there is a.
<manu_sporny> Demonstration of Support for NIST-Compliant Selective Disclosure for Data Integrity Cryptosuites in VCWG --
Manu Sporny: That we would like folks to add their names to if they have selective disclosure use cases and they want to see this thing exists as a global standard there's a sheet for that here so I'll not in here in the chat Channel that's there so if you you know have a use case or need for doing selective disclosure.
Manu Sporny: With verifiable credentials.
Manu Sporny: I would appreciate you putting your name down on that sheet so that we can demonstrate that there's interest so that we can push that forward on the global standard stage that's it thanks.
Kerri Lemoie: That's awesome thank you money Korea you and next to meet you.
<julie_keane> When will the bot transcribe baby talk. It would be amazing
Kaliya Young: Share that the internet and workshop number I think it's 37 is coming up in October pretty early and I'm skirt 10 to 12 um so just letting folks know about it and I'll say that but it took us abilities if you want to be then we'll do here.
<kaliya_identitywoman> Thanks
Kerri Lemoie: You're breaking up a little bit but I put the link to the iwi and the cat for folks to sign up for those of you who are interested in plus side we are planning on holding of the day before like we did last last look I've Monday October 9th I'm in the same location.
Kerri Lemoie: I have a floor.
<kerri_lemoie> Great!
Nate_Otto_(he/him): Okay thanks Carrie surges also here we have an exciting announcement for this morning which is that our beta sign up has opened today for Orca the open recognition Community app this is intended to be open source but we're planning for an open source release around December this year with some early partner access new open badges 3.0 verifiable credentials platform also supporting open badge.
Nate_Otto_(he/him): has 2.0 the focus is on.
Nate_Otto_(he/him): Practice who want to do bad weather including the badges at the same time that they're producing them reducing the distance between when that credential is awarded and when it's when it's consumed as much as possible so new beta signups are open today it's a waitlist and so we will gradually invite new communities in as we have capacity for them and in addition that little bit of a user's group where people can discuss and talk about how to use.
Nate_Otto_(he/him): badges for open recognition so I'll put a sign up link in.
Nate_Otto_(he/him): And stay tuned also for announcements on LinkedIn and all the socials today.

Topic: Main Topic - Open Recognition with Julie Keane from & Don Presant from

Kerri Lemoie: Asking me that's really great good good timing here because it's called okay it looks like the queue is empty so why do we go ahead and move to the next topic which is about open recognition so I would like to introduce Julie Keen from to kick us off and on will have some slides for us and we just discussion do it also.
Julie_Keane: Yeah all right well we've been teed up very well by Adam and also Nate and there's lots of open recognition folks here Serge and made and Simona and Carrie and Cheryl and Doug and Anna so lots of folks have been working in this space so Don and I are really just representing we have a couple of groups that will lots of community calls that go on monthly so we'll talk about that at the end but I'm just going to not waste any time.
Julie_Keane: time and let's dive into open recognition.
Julie_Keane: Don take it away.
Don_Presant: Great thanks Julie can everybody hear me okay.
Don_Presant: Great so yeah don't Present part of the open recognition workgroup we're one of the active communities of practice connected with the open skills Network I see in the list of participants on supported today by several co-conspirators and I'm sure I'll be reaching out to several of them that said this is a fairly technical group were speaking to you today this is a fairly non-technical talk we're just basically talking about principles and values that we think.
Don_Presant: are important and should be thought about When developing these.
Kerri Lemoie: +1 To principles & values related to this tech
Don_Presant: So I thought I'd start somewhat controversially to say you know my credentials and other verifiable credentials feeding it to skills based hiring sounds pretty good until you start to think about it a bit I like to call this Frank and skill Stein or maybe that's team for employers where the ideas that they can simply specify some kind of a unicorn and lo and behold there it is sort of assembled on the fly as it were and there seems to be a under.
Don_Presant: lying in some.
Don_Presant: Part of many that were just the sum of our skills and we in our community think that people are more than that I found this report from last September pretty useful but it really it's still thinking about that idea of the hungry mouths the idea that it's just about skills it's just about hiring key stakeholders being employers institutions and government and really there's no.
Don_Presant: there's no learner voice.
Don_Presant: In this document and in a lot of the discussions and also this notion about communities that Nate which is talking about and hope we get a chance to explore more in the question-and-answer later on a lot of this began before micro credentials it began with a very expansive notion of connected learning in other words learning that's connected to things that you care about starting with your passions and seeing where they take.
Don_Presant: you a more can I say.
Don_Presant: Laura Tori Journey based kind of a vision and notice though none left that there's online learning but there's also things like volunteer programs that could also be things like makerspaces and out-of-school activities Kerry has some great experience with that with a cheery so and then then you notice on the right job opportunities it's only one of the doors that can open to you so the vision wasn't only about life long learning it was about life wide learning very much rooted in the community and I'm sure some people.
Don_Presant: remember she called the city of learning Pittsburgh city of learning at the Sprout found at cetera.
Don_Presant: It a lot.
Don_Presant: Colleges and universities universities didn't really know what to do with this concept it was meant Wild West they're worried about who was issuing the badges whether too many were being issued lack of assessment lack of quality standards but I think a lot of people also saw an opportunity to break some of the big degrees or macro credentials down into modular stackable chunks in there was a sort of parallel notion of stacking of programs that ended up being conflated with it so we started to hear.
Don_Presant: during about the term micro credential Run 2014 2015 defined by you.
Don_Presant: Going many others.
Don_Presant: It really comes down to a lot of course certificates fairly institution Centric very much with a fairly top-down framing of recognition which we feel has a tendency to pull the original Vision out of shape.
Don_Presant: So recognition I think is key word and it's got a wide scope outside of formal recognition the professions hiring practices because there's a notion of self recognition and even self-assertion and that can be self-actualization but it can also progress to you making a claim about yourself that's verifiable perhaps you think you might do in a resume or cover letter in a verifiable way that can be a supported by others then there's social recognition the kind you get among peers and then.
Don_Presant: these may be built around geography may be around practices interests Etc and that's kind of what Orca.
Don_Presant: Don't make me just mentioning so my company learning agents where we do Consulting and we developed a framework for the inter-american development bank and this is a sort of a generic version of that framework that expands in a little bit and it's a the attempt is to try and Encompass this wide spectrum of recognition and diversity of what people are doing so on the left you have the more sort of micro-credentialing.
Don_Presant: tough and most of it is the assessment certificate.
Don_Presant: Certifications in other words you're qualified for roll over on the right it's more about you know did you complete of course did you participate in an activity in the middle maybe you're assembling a body of evidence that can may or may not be evaluated by others but way over on the right that's where I think the magic happens and that's why we're here today sings Awards achievements that P reassuring that self issuing ad hoc and and more emergent so it's more appreciative.
Don_Presant: on the right more summative and authenticate.
<doug_belshaw> /waves
Don_Presant: On the left so Doug belches pulled this together that we are open Co-op I think Doug's on the call today so this is a comparison about how open recognition might compare to my credentials I'm not going to read it all but just sort of have a look and you sort of had this idea on the one side it's very much what's a word a repackaging of certifications certificates.
Don_Presant: Etc over on the right it's more of.
Don_Presant: Sort of an expansive notion and we think there's room for both it's a big tent but we do find that sometimes there's not enough oxygen for conversations about what should be happening on the right and there's huge value they're both for the individuals and even for others in less formal approaches to to recognition so here are some examples that have been explored over the past number of years where it could.
Don_Presant: be a selfish.
Don_Presant: I did a hard thing and some scaffolding they're saying why was it hard what did you do why is that significant or it could be I just learned something today or somebody saying that you're a good person to work with and if you have enough of those maybe that starts having some cash a so or I have a hidden talent so in other words I didn't take a course to do this I actually know something already that people don't know about me and I'm asserting that here and then over on the right we have some interesting ones pick up the reins or.
Don_Presant: her in planning.
<deb_everhart_(credential_engine)> I love the way this comparison draws on discussions we had even in the earliest open badge work groups about individuals issuing badges
Don_Presant: And I'd like to now introduce Anna heyliger who's the author of these badges for million in turn now on the staff at we are open Co-op to tell her story Anna are you there.
Don_Presant: This picture of you.
<kerri_lemoie> Thanks, Anna!
<doug_belshaw> (based on original work by ORA / Serge)
Don_Presant: So I think that's a that's a great segue to this definition that Doug Bell shall pull together that which works for a lot of us and it's just the idea that what we know what we can do who were about really goes beyond credentialing and includes recognizing individuals and communities and where those communities are and and and their right to apply their own definitions and their own.
Don_Presant: own labels to what they know and can do.
Don_Presant: And those can be rising up or implicit or they can move their way to be explicit but the point is that they're very much rooted in the context and the actual people people involved Doug you may want to add to this.
Don_Presant: If you're there.
<doug_belshaw> Sorry Jitsi wouldn't let me unmute
Don_Presant: No worries I'll just keep moving so I think just to bring things back to this audience it's useful to start talking about ways of extracting value or leveraging this combination of data that can be structured and unstructured and about people and by people so we have for example.
Don_Presant: Bottom left we have credential engine doing great work with other organizations such as HR open to develop very structured approaches to recognition of credentials hiring processes so HR open for example is my understanding is that there was a way of making a it's a essentially a self assertion that can be endorsed by others by Third parties so that's a it's a parallel to what what is.
Don_Presant: being developed and.
Don_Presant: Example and we also have very unstructured stories on the other hand that are stories in and among themselves so in other words a badge that somebody might have that Anna was talking about it but learning Finnish or existing in a totally different environment for a while so Julie this might be a good time to talk about experience you as yeah.
Julie_Keane: Yeah yeah happy to so experience you and many people on the call may be familiar with this project it's another Walmart funded initiative it's being co-organized by education development Design Lab so long as also helping along with others to basically think about how you use AI to you to turn unstructured data into structured.
Julie_Keane: de and then lay those on to.
Julie_Keane: Digital and verifiable credentials we are I have a couple of colleagues here on this call that are working with a group called work Bay which focuses on incarcerated folks and they are sort of telling stories it's very difficult to have people sort of self a test particularly when they are in vulnerable and marginalized populations so the idea is to elicit sort of stories using transcripts and then structuring laying that on to more structured.
Julie_Keane: economies at the.
Julie_Keane: Within the earners control about what gets laid onto it economy and then those are turned into digital credentials so there is a T3 meeting next week many folks on this call will be there and we will be presenting this project along I believed along with 15 other projects that are also using AI to turn unstructured data into structured data.
Julie_Keane: Yeah so follow that yeah.
Don_Presant: So so basically we're saying there should be a balance I mentioned the big tent and we think there should be a way for people to invent themselves and to continue to invent themselves in ways that make sense for their lives and their careers that's this notion of a key guy and or this is the less preferred option the idea that people can be assembled according to skills and put to work.
Don_Presant: work in.
Don_Presant: So along those lines sarrish is with us today sir well Sarah Jean Nate we co-authored something called the bolonia open recognition declaration in the car on the way to an epic conference in Bologna which Simoni was very very kind to invite us to and it was sort of a cheeky reference to the bolonia framework that for academic Co recognition we thought it should go beyond.
Don_Presant: and academic recognition.
Don_Presant: These are the principles in other words we think open recognitions for everybody not only to be recognized but to recognize others we think the technology should be able to support that and we think policies and even funding that follows policies should support that as well and it shouldn't just be about repackaging courses as digital credentials so we encourage you to sign read and sign the open wrecking recognition declaration there's actually a badge you can have.
Don_Presant: have to.
Don_Presant: Or your values and put put put those values out there help build our open recognition Community but further back here in North America be open open recognition work group has developed these more specific I guess recommendations principles to bear in mind as we're developing verifiable credentials open badges version 3 and just some things to think about the.
Don_Presant: idea of naming your.
<julie_keane> They have not been formally adopted by OSN - but we are working on it
Don_Presant: Skills and pot perhaps mapping those later the idea that skills are Dynamic very contextual there's no one framework to rule them all and a commitment to developing tools and networks and ecosystem that's not just top down that can be bought them up and even bridging out peer-to-peer sort of a more mesh mesh Network and the Partnerships that will support that.
Don_Presant: To conclude these are some of the events across the top that are going to be exploring this we have an open recognition thread at the badge Summit coming up in a few weeks and I'll be delivering a virtual webinar about open recognition before that that will be recorded and then that epic 2020 37 years after the bolonia open recognition decoration we're still at it albeit in Vienna and some very interesting people.
Don_Presant: people there including from the South Africa qualifications Authority.
Don_Presant: Ready former CEO will be there and a number of others including Carrie who actually submitted a proposal just last week so we encourage you to submit proposals for that the deadline is just gone but also we will be accepting further later and then obviously you'd be on a very welcome as participants it's really it's a thought leadership conference it's not about presentations as it is so much about dialogue in the meantime we also have the keep badges.
Don_Presant: weird Community which is now re re.
Don_Presant: And it is.
Don_Presant: Recognition is for everyone and then the the community open skills so I think we can go to slide question and answer.
Don_Presant: Oh sure good idea.
Kerri Lemoie: It is great everybody before we get a big dog do you mind keeping that slide up to one with the community I like it share the windows of slides are in the chat but where those links are legit I mean I really encourage all of you to really look into all of these different conversations because of the great community of people who have been working together I mean really since I was a 2011. A very very beginning of the badges.
Kerri Lemoie: I have been having these conversations and it means so much that you conversation between.
Kerri Lemoie: Why do things like open Badges and verify the credentials start getting adopted two more in the I think it's honestly one of the microcurrent Ali degree representation the more like formal type of learning and recognition but we don't do that in our lives right we're learning all the time and we are we are in communities and we learn from each other and this is part of why I open badges a lot initially there were really thought thank you so much you and Julie for being here and.
Kerri Lemoie: And I don't see anybody in the few yet by that Julie if you want to like to go.
Kerri Lemoie: For those discussions.
Kerri Lemoie: Happy like me money when miss you so much.
Julie_Keane: Sure I mean oh yeah mine are you've been added to the queue so yeah I'm just curious about thoughts I mean you know we're doing you know along with Nate's Oregon you know a lot of other Technologies are really just interested in this community's thoughts about using verifiable credentials around this open recognition piece around sort of recognizing each other how would they sort of be used you know what are some good use cases in addition to stuff that we had worked on historically around.
Julie_Keane: informal learning.
Manu Sporny: Thanks Julie um yeah I think my biggest question is kind of from the technical standpoint so the you know the whole the concept makes sense complete sense right education or learning is not just about the all the formal Pathways that we have we also want to recognize the all the informal you know training that we do and in many cases there's a lot of that that goes on through.
Manu Sporny: You out kind of are.
Manu Sporny: All careers I guess the main question I have is more technical you know we're talking about you know how do we use the open badges stuff how do we use verifiable credentials to meet the use cases here I guess my question is have you found have you found technical gaps so we're actively working on these kind of global standards right now and we're interested to.
Manu Sporny: If this Approach at you know recognizing learning has uncovered any company badges 30 or any gaps in verifiable credentials that we could potentially you know patch up fix up before we ship the version 20 work for verifiable credentials that's it.
<julie_keane> Nate? Thoughts?
<julie_keane> Kerri?
<doug_belshaw> I can say something about transactional vs social issuing
Don_Presant: I mentioned that there are a number of technical people supporting me on the call so I think I'm going to throw to them pretty quickly I would say that for us the the thrust has been issuing credentials more sort of pushing pushing them out and there's been a lot less with pulling credentials and making while both curating them and making sense of them and then finding audiences for them so I.
Don_Presant: I'd say that's.
Don_Presant: Sure that's I've been list that as a technical issue I think it's also a socio-economic one but that would be that would be a key Gap it has been just sort of pumping out tons of badges isn't that great no it isn't it's just an input right so it's what what happens with these things.
Julie_Keane: Again and there's a lot of people in the queue so I'll only add one thing Manos like just knowing what happened the first time that cities of learning at least in North America you know in Chicago was the amount of kids that earn so many badges throughout the city through the cities of learning and never claimed them or use them so to the extent you know and then again I agree with dying that's not a technology may not be answering that but the technology is being more easy more mobile more useful might solve some of that problem all right okay okay a lot of people in the queue here.
<doug_belshaw> Social Verifiable Credentials (unfinished)
Kerri Lemoie: Gavin I'm next make you so I could say something real quick and then let other people speak one day some folks may not understand really about open badges previously to 3.0 and when I went down and enjoy talking about issuing it means that it's sort of different than how we talk about issues with verifiable credentials with issuing we say and it'll meds like 2.0 previously if the file is created there.
Kerri Lemoie: An email address associated with him and someone was making a statement.
Kerri Lemoie: Our seniors hosted on a web platform whereas this Majesty Point O and verifiable credentials there's this sense of the learner being in the middle of it and the learner saying Hey I want that credential piece give it to me versus it being just given to them without them really like requiring requesting it I guess our client requesting it to that's a pretty critical change in the technology right to thinking about designing user.
Kerri Lemoie: Ants and how they might apply to open breakfast.
Kerri Lemoie: But and also we probably want to think more about right now it's very very organizationally issuer center right in terms of the structure of the spec where we don't really leave so much room for individual stay I am me and I am selfish testing that you can do it but I don't think many expect that in terms of verifiable credentials.
Kerri Lemoie: I'm going to stop there so that other people think us Neo does I'm sorry you're next.
<deb_everhart_(credential_engine)> love this transcription-- I'm sure ants would like to feast on open breakfast ;-)
<julie_keane> hahah
Doug_Belshaw: Hey old man - to make jitsi recognize a microphone so that's all good and just two plus one what scary said and thank you Don for your presentation so I put something in the chat earlier just about something I was thinking about last year which speaks to exactly what Kerry was saying they're all of the focus really understandably has been around issuing and verifying making sure that these people are the people who earned this thing which has meant that really we haven't had as much focus on learning displaying and sharing the kind of social.
Doug_Belshaw: element of it and so that's Deck that I shared was really just thinking about what if.
Doug_Belshaw: Verifiable credentials with something like activity up like how could you do that in an interesting way to allow socially useful things to happen especially now that we don't necessarily have to have the badge image it kind of lowers the barrier to entry to allow open recognition to happen with verifiable credentials that's all I wanted to say I'm really happy that the so many talented people on the school.
Kerri Lemoie: Thank you that's awesome I forgot about that yes I forgot because we always talk about that with open badges but with 3.0 it's not required and it really does also change with that means about how the recognition can be used Nate you are next.
Nate_Otto_(he/him): Thanks money you ask a really good question about you know what technical gaps might we try and patch in this little time between now and like a VC 2.0 release or open badges 3.0 final finalization we've done a lot of work on patching up technical gaps over the last few years surges on the column the first presentation I did with him on this topic of what technical gaps are there that are making open badges weird for open recognition was.
Nate_Otto_(he/him): in 2014 at the open education conference and.
Nate_Otto_(he/him): C and we talked about what Carrie had brought up which is the asymmetry of the construction between the open badges 2.0 issuer which was presumed to have a website where they can post Blobs of Json and the open badges 2.0 recipient which was just an email address the recipient could not become an issuer essentially was the problem with open badges 3.0 adopting the see now we have a common identifier type between these two entities which is we could use dids and that's easier said than done.
Nate_Otto_(he/him): done but I suspect that the technical gaps that we're going to.
Nate_Otto_(he/him): Really as the previous speaker said in the social layer of it in the service layer rather than in the data model layer for the next sort of stretch of our journey the open badges 3.0 model is incredibly expressive you can do a whole lot of stuff with it to describe a different types of learning achievements as Kerry mentioned no image required anymore so it's really flexible there and we have this whole realm of like self-assertion that is now opening up to us the technical.
Nate_Otto_(he/him): a layer of how we actually get those individuals.
Nate_Otto_(he/him): Two workers and be able to sign the credentials what technology do we put in their hands to be able to do that that's still an open question and then probably an even bigger harder question is how do we as an ecosystem understand the value of all of these many new issuers thought you know individuals far less formal than even non-traditional education institutions and after-school clubs that open Meadows was originally supported for how do we understand the.
Nate_Otto_(he/him): the value and the composition of the many.
Nate_Otto_(he/him): Friends that are coming out of individuals on self recognition and peer recognition processes.
Kerri Lemoie: Dmitri you have the floor
Dmitri Zagidulin: Hey thanks and so I think Nate touched on a lot of what I was going to mention but to expand on the socio technical difficulty not exactly a gap but I want I want every one of you to start thinking about it so.
Dmitri Zagidulin: I think the.
Dmitri Zagidulin: The right end of that Spectrum on one of the early slides the self assertions and the peer assertions are incredibly important especially if those self-assertion Czar backed up by evidence right so I can claim that I know HTML but then if I can link to an Evidence of that project that I did online course that I completed it gives it that much more weight.
Dmitri Zagidulin: So what's needed for.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Well you need a way to link credentials together and cryptographically bind different credentials together and there's several mechanisms for that we explore one of the mechanisms in in a paper with Phil and gold on linked credentials and in fact just these past few weeks the verifiable credential working group added a mechanism to the core data model.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Based on sub resource Integrity but generalizing it that allows credentials to be linked together but that's that's not the interesting part it's going to be useful but that's the low level technical part the main difficulty that we're going to run into that we need to solve if we're to have self asserted credentials with evidence peer-to-peer credentials with evidence is the notion of identity and that's the that's the bit Nate touched.
Dmitri Zagidulin: On already so.
Dmitri Zagidulin: In the verifiable credential the growing importance of trust Registries what do we mean by that lists of known issuers lists of known verifiers when I when somebody hands me a credential signed by a did and a date is just an opaque string a lot of the did methods are how do I know that potential signed by did example 1 2 3 4 5 belongs to.
Dmitri Zagidulin: A mighty belongs to Harvard.
Dmitri Zagidulin: We need these these list of known issuers that correlate credentials to known named entities so we think using using some of the specs doing incubated in the ccg right now.
Dmitri Zagidulin: We have a technical solution to that we still need the hard social and legal lift of who keeps these lists what's the governance how do we trust them all that stuff but we're fairly confident that for four main institutions it's a solvable problem the thing we all should should start thinking about is how do we solve that same problem of identity.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Individuals for self-assertive credentials for peer credentials meaning again II hand just officer to credential or a peer credential and let's say I got a track down my professor at school and got them to give me an Evidence credential a letter of recommendation credential linking to a project I did doesn't matter.
Dmitri Zagidulin: When somebody is.
Dmitri Zagidulin: And they see this credential signed by an opaque did how do they know it belongs to the professor.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Also this notion of.
<doug_belshaw> The thing is that it's still a hierarchical transactional relationship. Identity in that case matters because it's high-stakes. Open Recognition is much likely to be lower-stakes.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Will individual identity intersect with known issue or lists is something that we as a community need to solve so I want everybody to start thinking about that and we'll keep the conversation going thanks.
Kerri Lemoie: Thank you Serge you are next
<doug_belshaw> No-one has ever asked me for my doctoral cerificate :)
<kaliya_identitywoman> How do you know who owns a particular DID?
<nate_otto_(he/him)> How ORCA addresses these challenges is that OpenBadgeCredentials are issued by "the community", and peer EndorsementCredentials are issued by individuals within the community (and may sometimes need to be expressed outside the community, in which case initially individual signing keys held custodially by the community). Going beyond that to enable individuals to authorize use of their own signing services via CHAPI might be interesting.
<deb_everhart_(credential_engine)> and linked data connections from within the credentials
<dmitri_zagidulin> the questions I raised still stand though - if a badge was endorsed by an employer, how does the verifier know the identity of the employer? (specifically, that the employer's DID belongs to a registered company?) etc.
Kerri Lemoie: You are next.
Manu Sporny: Yeah just to reflect back I think some of the things that I heard all really great stuff so I'm hearing that you know from a technology standpoint we have some of the underpinnings that we would need to make this open recognition stuff work like we've got you know verifiable credentials we have open badges V3 you know we're able to we have these kind of digital wallet things so there's there's some fundamental technologies that exist there and.
Manu Sporny: Probably not.
Manu Sporny: Is the problem the difficulty is a little higher up on the technology stack it's like the platform's the platforms that we have currently don't allow easily individuals to issue you know open Badges and for us to understand you know to how to put that individual that has issued the badge in context with with the larger kind of learning ecosystem and that seems to be one of the big challenges.
Manu Sporny: These are the platforms that we have right now.
Manu Sporny: And I think it's true the platforms that have been built to date very much kind of follow-up traditional large institution issue or model in what we're looking for is something more Mastodon activity Pub like where you have small social communities that are interacting with each other and want to issue within their communities and ideally have that recognized externally the one thing I wanted to point out to the group is that we.
Manu Sporny: We're actively working with the.
Manu Sporny: Community and the Mastodon community so they're very much engaged with at least the digital signature portion of the verifiable credentials 20 work the data Integrity work there they're doing a number of implementations to secure activity Pub messages and that in the mechanism that they're looking at right now the data Integrity stuff is compatible with you know some of the stuff that's been used to secure these verifiable credentials over time so the idea here is that we.
Manu Sporny: You should be able.
Manu Sporny: Have these verifiable credentials open badge v30 stuff be integrated with the technical platforms that that seems to be a very doable thing but again the problem seems to be a little higher up the stack how do you change that social kind of media server such that it enables people to kind of engage on the social media platform and issue and potentially verify credentials.
Manu Sporny: As as individuals.
Manu Sporny: I do agree that that would with number of things to meet reset as well which is you know there are the idea of trust you know how do you how do you trust this and do you determine it through context or do you determine it through a government-issued ID for example those are kind of two two extremes or is it somewhere in between that seems like a really interesting topic for this you know group to try and figure out and solve.
Manu Sporny: So I'm hoping that I.
Manu Sporny: You know correctly if there are some technical rough edges with the current specifications you know please do make those known we have another year before we fully ratify verifiable credentials to 0 but we basically enter feature freeze in about two months two to three months so if there is something that you know is desperately needed by this community to support the open recognition stuff now is definitely the time to raise issues on the.
Manu Sporny: So that we.
Manu Sporny: Technology in there for this this iteration of the spec thanks.
Kerri Lemoie: Welcome to My Nail and Deb right next to me.
<taylor_(lef)> Also working with many web3 communities who are directionally aligned (e.g. Protocol Labs, Metamask, etc)
<kayode_ezike> Does Open Recognition codify reputation/credence in some way, such that consumers of an recognition issued by peer P1 to peer P2 understand that recognition from P1 in that domain is passable/credible?
Deb_Everhart_(Credential_Engine): So I think my new said a lot of this and also Don in the chat so I'll be brief but it seems to me you know there's a whole range of use cases in terms of what's needed and expected of a trusted network of providers and how you can reliably identify who is who and you know if you're if you're dealing with something that's high stakes credential that.
Deb_Everhart_(Credential_Engine): that is supposed to verify.
<kerri_lemoie> It's interesting to think about how issuing gets integrated into platforms & practices.
Deb_Everhart_(Credential_Engine): Your skills for potentially dangerous activity like a nurse then they're going to need to be different levels of trust so we can't put everything in the in the same bucket but I think it's really useful to think about contextualizing these trust networks is networks of networks so that you know and in formal credential.
Deb_Everhart_(Credential_Engine): Credential can be considered in the same context is a different type of credential that has different ramifications for the trust Network.
Kerri Lemoie: Well I definitely have no one else there and I'm going to send it back to Julie and it's me what I've been hearing a lot is about like contacts and about trust just as a brief thought on that is that what the power of embed just 2.0 adoption verify look at a standard is that all of these credentials 10.
Kerri Lemoie: Be put together weather there.
Kerri Lemoie: Formal non-formal community that they can be inserted together by the learner they could be packed in this and and verified like technically right in the same way which we never had before which I think is the power here one of the powers care anyway with a lining of provided to standardized verification Julie is that when you close us up.
Don_Presant: Sure I do.
Julie_Keane: Yeah goad up an account on because I think all I would do is just 2 plus 1 what you and Deb said and I mean just building off of the conversation I do think that context is everything and I think personally just getting away from an either or proposition of high-stakes credentials versus kind of peer-to-peer the technology can support all of these things as long as the earner has control over them.
<phil> Are thinking about sharing selected fragment of one's personal graph that the individual selects for the context of a particular single assertion?
Don_Presant: Well I would say + 102 that I mean II came to this I came to open badges through the doorway of a portfolio which unfortunately it has become a very sort of siloed kind of thing and I know Sarah she was very excited when I heard about open Badges and I shared it with him and it certainly has transformed the dialogues were having an epic and I think it really does come down to the control the voice I guess.
Don_Presant: that the learner and so in other words do a bunch of.
Don_Presant: Is in a wallet is that your voice how what control do you have over that but how can you use those hardened piece of pieces of evidence with a softer pieces of evidence to tell a story about yourself that works for a particular situation whether it's joining Community or trying to get a job and I think that would be and there's big elements of technology in that they have which has been touched on the in this discussion but it's also a cultural thing almost.
Don_Presant: Stan other words can you can you.
<serge_ravet> Wallets just show the credentials received, while those issued, like endorsements are just as important
Don_Presant: Express Yourself In This Way in an ongoing Dynamic way it's work but I think it's very valuable work for people to have fulfilling lives and just putting the putting the tools and and the realization that the power is there for them to do that and to support what they have with endorsements with hardened pieces of evidence I think it's is really important and that's part of what we're trying to get at in these various communities and these various dialogues.
Don_Presant: I really learned a lot from today thanks very much.
Kerri Lemoie: Thank you guys for being here Thursday I see you in a few Tina to keep it strictly at the end right again there you go thank you.
Phil Barker: +1 To the "narrative credential" to weave together these credential assertions in a data driven story?
Julie_Keane: Don't know no I just I agree with that.
<deb_everhart_(credential_engine)> thank you!
<phil> these are services that wallets need to have api's to ;-)
<doug_belshaw> :wave: cheers all
Kerri Lemoie: Yeah agreed I was I think we're going to have a lot more a while it's going for started to hurt you open recognitions I thank you very much for coming today it'd be great if you could come back and towards the end of the year maybe after of after epic and give us an update on all of this because we love to do this discussion in alignment with the verify the credentials so awesome thank you so much everybody.
Julie_Keane: Everyone happy Monday.
<don_presant> Thanks all!