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W3C CCG Weekly Teleconference

Transcript for 2023-07-11

Our Robot Overlords are scribing.
Harrison_Tang: Hi everyone so welcome to this week's a w3c ccg this week we have Hank and Carson I think Carson well let them introduce themselves a little bit later but what have we have them actually presenting the support concise planetary object representation today but before we get to the main agenda just want to do a couple and it's things first of all just.
Harrison_Tang: Of ethics and professional conduct reminder more or less just make sure that we remain respectful acknowledge each other's perspective at all times now quick IP note anyone can participate in these calls however also extensive contributions to an ECG work items must be member of the ccg with for IP our agreement signed so make sure you have that w3c account and sign the w3c coming.
Harrison_Tang: UT contribution license agreement.
Harrison_Tang: If you have any questions or encounter any problems just let any of the co-chairs know.
Harrison_Tang: Quick IP note we use GT chat to Q speakers during the call so just type in 2 plus to add yourself to the Q q- to remove it all the meetings minutes and no recordings will be published within the next few days.
Harrison_Tang: all right.
Harrison_Tang: Any introduction to reintroductions.
Harrison_Tang: Okay one I'm going to cue a Karsten not do you mind introduce yourself a little bit.
Harrison_Tang: Great thank you Carson re I think I had a little technical difficulties so that me a restart the subscriptions on a second.
Harrison_Tang: Thank you and also Hank do you mind introduce yourself a little bit to the audience.
Nis Jespersen : Yeah hi Alison this is Hank.
Nis Jespersen : Alvin okay yeah hi I'm Hank I'm also located in Germany I'm working for to research institutes at the moment one of them is for secure information technology and the other one is for material science engineering and research so that is weird combination my day job is Material Science at the moment but I've been doing as not as long as Carson of course but to some extent.
Nis Jespersen : Then some.
Nis Jespersen : Computing group and the internet engineering task force why is that we wanted to have trustworthy assertions about rather a lot of interesting domains be a be the Department of Defense as inventory set they have assets or other things that we want to have believable assertions and that's where I think the trusted Computing group is great they invented the term at a station but recently in this redefined that.
Nis Jespersen : Until being an endorsement.
Nis Jespersen : Let's do that and and and they are not so good at building protocol sometimes so the ietf was a good place to try to influence of the specify a protocol for remote at the station that's the different from challenge response and then the realization came but well nobody knows how this works and and also everybody wants to use see before this that's great TPMS do not produce zero outputs and that is an interesting.
Nis Jespersen : In conundrum so how do you combine something with a powerful.
Nis Jespersen : And the usefulness of.
Nis Jespersen : Tseebo and such why you have to deal with but I want to say Legacy native format still can't get rid of because they're soldered into your iot device for the next 25 years and yeah this is why I'm basically also here and working with Carson a lot because we try to tie and trying to take it as sub section of Carson's problem domain and Carson tries to take a subset of my problem domain and really makes a lot of sense through this together.
Harrison_Tang: Thank you Hank.
Harrison_Tang: All right any other introductions and reintroductions feel free to unmute yourself.
Harrison_Tang: Okay well what about announcements and reminders anyone have any announcements were reminders.
Kaliya Young: Just a reminder that the internet identity Workshop in Mountain View California is coming up October 10 to 12 and so it's sort of early this year so.
Kaliya Young: And I'll also say we're really committed to accessibility so if you want to be there we want you to be there so reach out to us we can work with you and yeah I think it's going to be a great number 37.
Harrison_Tang: Sounds good okay cool yeah that you can do.
Harrison_Tang: McConnell you have the floor.
Harrison_Tang: You want to talk about the reboot web of trust.
Harrison_Tang: We can come back to you at a later time any other announcements were reminders.
Harrison_Tang: All right any updates on the work items.
Manu Sporny: Yeah I'll just mention since Oliver isn't here there was a work item that was put out there around confidence methods around verifiable credentials so this is a capability to allow an issuer of a verifiable credential to convey how they might verify that the entity or individual presenting that credential is the same person that picked up the credential so.
<henk> Orie will join at the bottom of the hour
<econnell> Rebooting the Web of Trust will be convening Sept 18-22 in Cologne, Germany. Details and tickets here:
Manu Sporny: One way that you can you know establish confidence is the person uses the same public key Pairs and proof of possession of a key is one mechanism but there are other mechanisms available such as you know check their drivers license that could be one confidence method it's been floating out there for a while the issue is that I don't think Spruce has the time to push that specification forward nor do we and I think there's just an.
Manu Sporny: Open call for anyone that's interested in.
Manu Sporny: Our if folks wants to take that Speck over there's a a just an open call for someone picking up that spec so that's the first one the second item had to do with the verifiable issuers and verifiable verifier lists so this work item is about.
Manu Sporny: If an issuer should be trusted so people call these like trust lists or a trust Frameworks but the idea here is that you know for example if you get a digital driver's license how do you know that the issuer is allowed to issue that driver's license or the flip side is if someone asks you for your driver's license how do you know if they're supposed to be able to ask for it like are they an authority.
Manu Sporny: E of some kind.
Manu Sporny: Need to give a special exception to hand that license over that group had their first meeting last week I believe that group is going to meet every other week so this is the verifiable issuers and verifiers task force that's operating I think they'll be sending out jinja's every two weeks in this is work that came out of the rebooting the web of trust blast rebooting the web of trust around knowing who to trust who's issuing.
Manu Sporny: Essentials and who's.
Manu Sporny: Um verifying credentials that's it.
Harrison_Tang: Thanks thanks money.
Harrison_Tang: Any other updates on the work Islands.
Harrison_Tang: All right let's get to this week's am an agenda so over the past few months I think there's several threats and conversations regards to Seaboard concise under binary objects represent a breakfast representation and today we have two of the most top experts on this topic on the call so Karsten and Hank and we're very very.
Harrison_Tang: very lucky and honored to have.
Harrison_Tang: To actually help present and answer any questions on Seaport so Carson Hank the floors are yours.
Harrison_Tang: Yes Claire do you have a question.
Harrison_Tang: I think that she removed her herself on the Q so please Carson please continue thanks.
Manu Sporny: Hey Carson oh wonderful presentation always really interesting to kind of hear from the people that created these languages what went into them I'm interested more about kind of the the creation of Seymour you mentioned that there were a number of other packed binary formats that I would presume Seaboard was kind of competing against with respect to attention in which one of these things is going.
Manu Sporny: Work and message pack was back.
Manu Sporny: Large organizations how did how did that kind of interplay work out in the group did you have to adjust the initial you know Seaboard design like you mentioned there was a split between integers and double Precision numbers what was kind of what was the environment like during the during the creation of Sabor was there a lot of collaboration between all the different.
Manu Sporny: Don't pack binary formats or.
Manu Sporny: Everyone kind of in their own Camp trying to make their pack binary format like message pack or be sand or win any thoughts on kind of how the how that played out in the in the working group and outside.
Manu Sporny: Yes thank you.
<orie> pretty cool, fuzzing and validation tool chain.
Harrison_Tang: Bonnie you have the floor.
Manu Sporny: On CDL thanks Harrison on CD Howe usage it feels like it's multi-purpose of course one of the usages is to I guess replace a b and F syntax or just be enough syntax and ITF specs that work with see bore so I the first question is just confirmation that that's one of the primary use cases there the other use cases but.
Manu Sporny: Essentially as a replacement for Json schema.
Manu Sporny: Um is that a design goal or is that just you know it only does a subset of Json schema what are the thoughts as far as verifying objects in life systems using CDL libraries.
<orie> lets not think about astrals and surrogates, or unicode... thank you...
Nis Jespersen : Yeah I'm just adding one thing that I feel surprisingly is missing from Carson Supply is that it's it's to convey what you're doing from Human to human the same way it is to enable very lightweight validation of structure so so it does both the tree grammar aspect provides lightweight burden on constraint or device.
Nis Jespersen : Isis and the noise.
<orie> now imagine:
Nis Jespersen : Type of representation provides lightweightness on the human you can really read CD there and you can write it fluently I had this exercise for someone was expecting what protocol they want to have what goes where we had sketched for its and everybody was like okay when can we have the specification for this protocol and Rhoda just why we're talking about it here is Hugo and they're expecting weeks and it took me the same time they were talking about it so you can if you are familiar with it you can write it fluently and / you have.
Nis Jespersen : Signing protocol messages and I think that's one big enabler of of CD I think that was.
Nis Jespersen : Speedway and the context.
Harrison_Tang: Thanks Hank and David you have question.
<manu_sporny> Yes, JSON Schema is rarely "written fluently" :P
David_Waite: After I've enjoyed the presentation so far with CDL having basically like 65 bit integers with tags lying for you know new extensions for data types such as times and durations I was wondering whether usage has been more along the lines of defining messages pretty concretely to trade between.
David_Waite: Like parties is concise language or more as a object model for having data and data archival with more of like a say a Dom type mechanism for representing the Seymour.
David_Waite: I guess to expand upon that you have back in the XML day so you had kind of the document crowd that considered that you know SVG and HTML that you'd have specialized tools for particular document formats and then you had the data crowd which were geared more towards pools that were Universal across everything you could possibly represent with X melon and sometimes there were was a bit of an.
David_Waite: impedance mismatch.
David_Waite: In the two and the one that making it more confusing for people who wanted to use XML because different tools were optimized for different problems which is you know kind of why we had XML schema and and the mg stuff the wax and G at the same time is because X-Men always serve those two markets I've just wondering if if you saw see more being more used for like very specific schema data.
David_Waite: the format or.
David_Waite: More freeform extensible data formats.
Harrison_Tang: All right any one last question.
Harrison_Tang: Person or Hank do you have any like conclusions any last conclusions for us.
Harrison_Tang: Sounds good well thank you thank you Carson thank you Hank for hopping on the call and then actually she bore again has been brought many many different times so thank you for spending a time to kind of answer not just doing this presentation the answer the question is for us if you don't mind like sharing these slides I can follow up with you offline and share it to the to the public list.
Harrison_Tang: all right thank you thanks Carson and thanks Hank.
Harrison_Tang: And this concludes that this week's w3c cgg meeting thanks a lot.
Nis Jespersen : Thank you bye-bye.