The W3C Credentials Community Group

Meeting Transcriptions and Audio Recordings (2014-today)

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W3C CCG Weekly Teleconference

Transcript for 2023-12-05

Our Robot Overlords are scribing.
Harrison_Tang: So welcome to this week's at w3c ccg meeting today we're very excited to have Sharon from jobs for for the future to come back here A year later to provide an update in regards to jmf but before then just want to quickly go through some of the administrative stop so first of all just a quick reminder in regards to the code of ethics and professional contact reminder.
Harrison_Tang: I just want to make sure that we.
Harrison_Tang: You have respectful conversations acknowledge each other's perspectives a second a quick note in regards to intellectual property so anybody can participate in these calls however all substantive contributions to an ECG work items must be member of the ccg with a full IP our agreement signed so if you have issues in regards to creating the w3c account or have questions in regards to the Community College.
Harrison_Tang: Yes agreement please feel free to reach out to any of the cultures here.
Harrison_Tang: So these meetings are being automatically recorded and minutes are automatically transcribed and we will publish the meeting minutes and all the recording usually the following day where we think the next few days we used to teach at at uq speakers during the cause of as well as to take minutes you can type in Q + to add yourself to the queue or q- to remove and you can type in queue.
Harrison_Tang: question mark to see who is the cute.
Harrison_Tang: All right quick moment for the introductions and reintroduction so if you're new to the community or you haven't been active and want to re-engage with the community please feel free to just unmute and speak up.
Harrison_Tang: Right so we do this like every week so feel free to now you feel feeling a little bit shy feel free to just do that next week as well all right announcements and reminders any new announcements or reminders of the events upcoming events or agendas.
Harrison_Tang: Right a quick saying so we recently I think about two weeks ago we opened up the the process of nominating and electing like a new culture and we mentioned that not just do the in the meeting but also can really send out an email about that so far we have one nomination will and I think today is the.
Harrison_Tang: After the nomination so Kimberly you might actually yeah.
Kimberly Linson: It was I was just going to say thank you Harrison for getting started yeah I had a little little snafu right there at the top of the hour so it was late joining so thank you yes the the nomination period closed last night at midnight Pacific time and so with only one nominee well we are pleased to have him as a another co-co-chair and then I'm really excited about that.
Kimberly Linson: And very last minute if he had just a moment to introduce himself so I will go and head and put him on the spot and let him sort of say a few words before we move on to our main topic.
Kimberly Linson: We're really excited about it too I had an opportunity to spend some time with Will and appreciate how he asks questions and is very articulate in helping and helping everyone understand what it is that's being talked about so we are really glad to have you and welcome.
Kimberly Linson: Okay so Harrison where are we were doing announcements does anyone else have an announcement or reminder.
Harrison_Tang: Give a quick shout-out to will again for actually volunteer volunteering for this work so you know very excited about them on and you know I think she she G will be even better with with his help.
Harrison_Tang: All right I do have a quick announcement so there has been like a threat in regards to the video recordings so a quick thing let me share my screen.
Harrison_Tang: Sorry I don't have this handy with me.
Harrison_Tang: Every week we actually do send out the meeting minutes so there is there's a script that sends out let me share this right now so every week actually someone is helping helping us in the background to run the script in sent out this email and there's a script that.
Harrison_Tang: actually old.
Harrison_Tang: Regenerate this email and then what it does is it includes things like although transcriptions and by late sometimes there are errors in the auto transcription so we'll get these requests and we'll try to go back in and then try to add that them to correct the transcription errors and then there's also a link to the audio recording and actually there's also a link to the video version as well.
Harrison_Tang: and they all follow the same format so.
Harrison_Tang: You know you can see the link here and then it just follows the year month and date format so just want to take this opportunity to solicit a volunteer a developer volunteer to help us modify the script so that we can actually automatically include the video link in this email as well but before we get that volunteer to help us do this.
Harrison_Tang: we'll just send out.
Harrison_Tang: Manually in the agenda emails I send out pretty much every week so I will add it in the pended at the end of the email to the links in regards to the previous meetings so I'll include those things the previous meeting links to transcription audio recording and the videos in the emails I send out the following week okay.
Harrison_Tang: all right.
Harrison_Tang: I will reply back to the thread and then you know if you know anybody or if you can actually take about an hour or two to help us modify the script just emailed back to any of the cultures appreciate the help thanks all right any other announcements or reminders.
Harrison_Tang: Any updates on the work items.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Wait one second one second Harrison I think Erica has has a hand up.
Harrison_Tang: All right so I just want to get to the man jenda so I think a couple months ago or a year ago we invited Sharon to actually farm jobs for the future jff to actually help sorry.
Erica Connell: Hi yeah I didn't sorry that was I try to be the Applause and it did hand up but I took myself off the queue so you shouldn't thank you drinking.
Harrison_Tang: No no worries I did that before too thanks thanks a lot alright so today we're very excited to have Sharon back to actually provide AA place in regards to our chops for the future so Sharon the for short.
<econnell> (thx, Dmitri!)
Sharon Leu: Okay I hope you can hear me I'm going to try to share my screen but I'm also dropping a link into the chat which is the deck that I'm going to be using today let's see I have too many windows open so here we go are you looking at my slide deck.
Sharon Leu: Okay I will say assume yes okay so thank you for welcoming me back I'm a little nervous but hopefully this will be a good conversation rather than just pure talking on my part so feel free to say something either in the chat or raise your hand I'm sure one of the moderators will interrupt me and let me know and again I don't mind that so I think that will be really fun so I will just do a quick introduction.
Sharon Leu: Whatever the case may be my name is Sharon Lou and I work at an organization called jobs for the future or jmf and essentially jmf is a not-for-profit organization in the United States we work on transformation of the education and Workforce ecosystems and our goal for this year which is our 40th birthday is that we will help 75 million people who face systemic barriers to advancement work in quality jobs Jay.
Sharon Leu: I'm physically I guess organizationally located is the Innovation arm I guess without disparaging I guess my other colleagues and what we focus on is whether technology or the application of different Technologies can help us to advance these goals our main funder is Walmart and they have provided a generous amount of support for all of this work that I'm going to be talking.
Sharon Leu: Young about.
Sharon Leu: Well as work that goes into the future and I'll talk a little bit about what that looks like towards the end and what is exciting about this funding is that it has enabled us to work together with a wide variety of Partners I've listed some of them on the slide principally the national Governors Association so that some of the work that we do can have sustainability in policy practice and funding.
Sharon Leu: Across the.
Sharon Leu: With digital credentials Consortium in the VC edu task force for which there is a big overlap between the cultures of the VC edgy task force as well as DC and a number of other partners who may or may not have sort of Technology expertise but are grounded in the use cases that we are interested in so what is our use case then this next slide shows a little bit about how we think.
Sharon Leu: Typically verifiable credentials can unblock some of the barriers that people face to advancement and in particular it's this idea of do I control credentials aka the assertions or evidence of my skills and abilities in a way that allows me to pursue whatever opportunities I choose to pursue next obviously this.
Sharon Leu: Is not.
Sharon Leu: I'm not saying here that once the technology is unblocked and once individuals control their credentials that all of the systemic and economic barriers that people face are suddenly going to disappear but what we are saying is we recognize that this is a barrier and we would like to address it so what does that look like that looks like a person with some formal and informal learning some perhaps community service military service.
Sharon Leu: Thanks identify the fication some work experience and credentials but currently these certifications and licenses and documents live in different silent systems that are actually controlled spy entities that are not the individual not the credential holder so we envision a future where individuals hold their credentials could be in a wallet or some other way and they can create different combination use them in combinations.
Sharon Leu: Are applying to college to get prior learning credits or if they're applying for a job to show the appropriate certifications and eligibility to work and that's actually why we are interested in the verifiable credentials ecosystem because this is in our minds how this use case that we are interested in becomes a reality so how did we do this we did this by copying.
Sharon Leu: Being some of the.
Sharon Leu: Anil John has done with the Silicon Valley Innovation program which I know a number of people on this call have previously participated in and we essentially said if we are going to take a look at this image what we need to do is break it down into the different steps where verifiable credentials as a foundation can enable this kind of interoperability and portability that we want to see so we have over the since June of twenty twenty-two hosted three.
Sharon Leu: In straight I'm a progression from left hand side to right hand side of this graphic and I will quickly go through the three plugfest including the one that we just hosted at the iiw this past October and I will say a couple of things about what we learned and what we think that means for the future and I will also say that the links to all of the information the technical specifications the participants the demo day videos.
Sharon Leu: Are all available on the VC edgy page.
Sharon Leu: And also follow along that way so in this first plugfest we wanted we invited wallet implementers to demonstrate the credential wallet interoperability layer so essentially this was our hello world that we are trying this out we use the open badge version 3 with which was still only in candidate final at the time we did the plugfest and each of the wallet implementers was required to receive a display one bear.
Sharon Leu: Bible credential.
Sharon Leu: Which was the jmf credential that we completely made up it had a cute image and essentially we listed a few of the sort of data fields that we required to be displayed and the observation that I would say the takeaway from plug best one is that in the u.s. at least education credential standards are still emerging and not broadly implemented so as I mentioned before we used the open badge versions.
Sharon Leu: Candidate final a number of changes occurred during the course of the plug best and as a result of the plugfest so both as a result of like I think 20 to 30 different wallet implementers giving feedback to this path to the spec but also because of errors that we found in suggestions for improvement so that is like I will sort of pin that and then get back to it later and then I will say we sort of in.
Sharon Leu: Kris the technical.
Sharon Leu: The second plugfest and we said that in order again to imagine a scenario where a person controls more than one credential the wallet then needs to receive more than one verifiable credential from more than one issuer but at the same time we invited issuers to issue their credential into more than one wallet sort of demonstrating that their wallet has viability outside of their own existing platform ecosystem I have three General sort of observation.
Sharon Leu: And I think.
Sharon Leu: Again I will pin and we can have a discussion around but that there was a great I will call this the great protocol divide to be funny but there were definitely protocol camps we did not we took the position that you could select your own protocol in that the plug best technical team would support any of the protocols that people selected and generally the two bigs teams were the VC API chappie team and then the teens using the Open Eyes.
Sharon Leu: D stack we did have in the second plugfest.
Sharon Leu: Of people working with the did come the tooth protocol we also noted that there was a correlation between the protocol divided and some internationalisation so it raised a few questions about International compatibility and and the third sort of observation that I definitely will pin is that some of the I think there is a correlation also with protocol selection internationalisation and the size and scale of.
Sharon Leu: Implementers in different places.
Sharon Leu: So finally we the plug best that we just did we took a look at the next step after a person compiles a bunch of credentials which is the verifiable presentation creation and so the wallets were so we went back to focusing on the wallets.
Sharon Leu: We told the wallet that they needed to request three credentials from over there sorry to receive a request for three credentials from the verifier and then the wallet holder needs to be able to respond to the request by selecting which credentials to share and then creating a presentation to send back to the requester for verification and essentially this was I think this is like the ugliest lied but I'm going to use it anyway because I don't.
Sharon Leu: Have a better one.
Sharon Leu: But like we thought that this workflow simulated are real world use case which is an institution a training provider when a player says to a person I would like to give you a credential a person agrees to accept it and then on the other end of that in a potential employer or an institution where someone is applying requesting to see the credential and then a person again giving permission to see it so we think that with the three plugfest together.
Sharon Leu: We were able to.
Sharon Leu: This transaction we used again fake jmf credential which is a little green one we also made a requirement that you had to use the u.s. permanent resident card which I get I think a number of people had experience using because of the S VIP plug vest and then we had a miscellaneous number of credentials that we put into the VC playground that people could receive.
Sharon Leu: That I will okay so what so what happens in the end so sorry here's the website you can take a quick look at the requirements there's a link to the participant list with the videos that people submitted an overview of what what happens okay so here is a list of who came to demo day I just thought this was a fun graphic of where people were but essentially 20.
Sharon Leu: Two wallets.
Sharon Leu: The successfully and I listed them Below in addition people create there were six open-source verifiers that were created by Daniel Cox digital desired Zoella Greek universities matter and all tidy and then also one non open-source verifier that was created that this was really interesting because we had initially not thought to focus on the verifier but then there was so much interested in that we just thought oh this is kind of a fun bonus and then we had bonus points for.
Sharon Leu: One sort of pairing between matter and Greek universities Network that.
Sharon Leu: Portability that was beyond just the request that we put them okay so I'm not going to play these videos but I have linked to videos that I think are interesting Randa not just because Kimberly is on this call with because it gives a great overview of how the technical requirements looked and what we were specifically requesting that wallet providers sort of demonstrate I.
Sharon Leu: I am also.
Sharon Leu: Swing this wallet by a company called Gobekli the universal Talent pipeline the password because they implemented a couple of features that were not required and that I think are interesting as far as like how does a person select credentials to be part of this presentation and then I will also I'm going to share this screenshot of our slack Channel and this was actually one of the things that I appreciate the most about the plugfest which.
Sharon Leu: Is that during the period of.
Sharon Leu: It was truly collaborative I'm not trying to put anyone on the spot I just screenshotted this randomly on off in October for another demo but people were really working together really well and appreciated how collaborative everyone approach this with so before I get to what's next I'm just wondering should I stop for questions or should I just plow through.
Harrison_Tang: Anyone have any questions.
Rachel_Donahue_(she/they)_-_Digital_Promise: Hi yeah I do have a question I am you know still relatively new to the credential exchange protocols and I often will hear chappie and be Capi used as if they're like I guess the language around explaining like the different protocols I often hear them kind of used almost synonymously but then another other times I hear them.
Rachel_Donahue_(she/they)_-_Digital_Promise: Effort protocols so I was just hoping to have I guess some verbose clarification on that.
Sharon Leu: Does someone want to take that question is a little bit not related to the plugfest in so I'm afraid that I don't I don't want to get that wrong.
Harrison_Tang: Dimitri you have it outside Demetria volunteer you.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Sure yeah yeah no problem and then also I think somebody else might be on the Queue before me but real quick chappie is a wallet selector and if able to pass on any sort of protocol through pipes and then DC API is one of the examples of the protocols with which the wallet selector works but chappie the wallet selector can also be used with open ID and.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Is Dead Calm so at the shore bird.
Rachel_Donahue_(she/they)_-_Digital_Promise: And sorry that this wasn't totally related thanks.
Harrison_Tang: Any other questions.
Harrison_Tang: Right sure please proceed.
Sharon Leu: Okay so what's next this is a really great question something that we did take a little bit of a break after the third plugfest from thinking about but as we start planning for 2024 we want to be thinking about this I actually just included really this picture that I took of w and we had initial conversations about like what are some of the technical questions that we could be asking as we sort of think to how do we build on this.
Sharon Leu: There are obviously some issues like we could talk about like Chris.
Sharon Leu: The wave set like you know building out and different vocabularies and schemas or building up Registries there just aren't any number of miscellaneous sort of technical tasks that this would be a good opportunity to to get done you know through the resources that we have to support plugfest another approach is again I am not going to play the video because I have no idea what's going to happen but if you want to watch the video later this is the demo that the Greek University.
Sharon Leu: Network and matter.
Sharon Leu: Did where they showed the credential moving from a university in Greece to the system of record in a university in Canada so you know one possible approach is can we develop an actual end-to-end use case and use live credentials to then demonstrate that this sort of ecosystem has like has viability outside the sandbox so these are these are sort of two.
Sharon Leu: Two different approaches that.
Sharon Leu: Like we have in mind I'm actually really curious about what you think as a group here and how that aligns with some current and or upcoming ccg work items we want to align with the momentum that's already in the community instead of sort of creating our own thing so as we think about it though there are three questions that are really just the top of my mind and then I will also allow other people including like do.
Sharon Leu: Petrie who.
Sharon Leu: You know really critical in the success of this and some of the others that did participate to weigh in but as we think about like the future plugfest so I think about the three things that I said that I observed right the first is like which protocols and obviously you know jff we're not a technology vendor we are not standards you know we're not like even really reps in the field so we don't want to have a point of view on whether you should be using the C API chat.
Sharon Leu: Be or open ID but what we are noticing is.
Sharon Leu: Good the sort of divide and who selects which protocols is actually there are some interesting observations so the first thing that we observe is that for a lot of vendors that are in the u.s. chappie be Capi tended to be the protocol that they selected whereas some of ours are European wallet providers chose open to use open ID connect and I think that a lot of that has to do with.
Sharon Leu: You know the European Union and their.
<frank_cicio> Frank iQ4 happy to share the addition of pathways and jobs ..
Sharon Leu: No equivalent position that the u.s. government has and in fact there's not sort of an American digital credential standard the same way there is a Europe past learning model standard for how credentials have described so that's one interesting sort of implementation Tatian question because it is interesting to think about like.
Sharon Leu: Like how that will play out.
<frank_cicio> Plugfest is a great initiative
Sharon Leu: And I think it also has like like an observation that I had was also that that may be related to how some of the larger more influential tech companies like halfway to have fallen on the like which protocol to select scale and I think that they're typically is an argument that is made which is you know if you do it the way that a very large tech company does it then you will achieve scale or.
Sharon Leu: L ability more quickly.
Sharon Leu: I think though that in the US market that may not be the case because especially in US education you know academic freedom faculty academic freedom is like kind of the most sort of important value and there is not a principle of a wintry school or the chancellor of a college that could tell every Professor every teacher how to run their individual classroom.
Sharon Leu: Much less imposed.
Sharon Leu: Nor is it legally allowable for the US Department of Education to implement models like in the same way that the European Union has so I think that you know I have a little skepticism about whether a lining with large tech companies allows you to achieve scale and scalability and so anyway those are just the questions that I have about like how does this play out in protocols while at the same time wanting to understand since we have.
Sharon Leu: You know some potential interest in like in.
Sharon Leu: Italy whether that makes us institutions and u.s. wallets sort of compatible with that kind of demonstration the next question that I think about is like what is the interoperability that we still need to demonstrate like like are we satisfied as a group that we did actually demonstrate the kind of interoperability that using verifiable credentials and dids allow and if not like what is still missing from that picture because I think fun.
Sharon Leu: I mentally like use case is one thing but the other like the counterpart.
Sharon Leu: Did the technology did the infrastructure we're proposing do the thing that we said it should do and so then it gets us to the size matter for scale which is related to what I just said about like whether big companies adopt certain standards but also like how then do we like promote wide step spread use of verifiable credentials whether it's in the education transfer use case whether it's in the employment employment use case is it by.
Sharon Leu: Promoting like large-scale.
Sharon Leu: Issuance of the verifiable credentials is it working with verifiers to actually demonstrate that they can receive and verify the credentials is working with holders so that they're more wallets and more people demanding the credentials so I don't I think that there's no wrong answer really but it's more an issue of like where can we get impact what kind of impact and what would everyone be interested in working on so I'm going to.
Sharon Leu: Up there.
Sharon Leu: And open it up for other people to talk and feel free to ping me after I left my email address here and I'll stop sharing.
Harrison_Tang: Thank you Sharon Wright David you're on the queue.
Sharon Leu: Oh thank you David I think I definitely am and I know also that Anil is interested so for there's some version of this going on with his plugfest so let's definitely connect I would love to know more about what that group is working on and let's see if there are some like areas of I think synergy.
Harrison_Tang: Any other questions Benjamin.
Benjamin Young: Yes someone who participated at the plug test I just wanted to publicly thank Sharon and the rest of the team for all they've done it was a really great experience and if you weren't aware of it and hope to participate in the future and definitely stay in touch with him.
Harrison_Tang: Thank you Benjamin.
Harrison_Tang: Any other questions or comments.
Kimberly Linson: So I don't know if this is a question or a comment or just maybe a provocative statement hoping that someone will kind of.
Kimberly Linson: In but I think you know a lot of us have been involved in the progress and Benjamin I want to Echo what you said Sharon for for us these have been the technical deadlines that that propelled us forward and really like made us you know make sure that we were doing the thing that we thought we were doing and I'm so grateful and appreciative for that one of the things that we've been I think those of us.
Kimberly Linson: Us that are in this community.
Kimberly Linson: Have been very much a part of conversations around skills and skills based hiring and the importance of helping those 75 million people represent their skills and I think that I have been thinking about verifiable credentials and open Badges and comprehensive learner records as being the thing that tells the skill but I think maybe.
Kimberly Linson: Be those aren't as as closely tied as I think that they are and.
Kimberly Linson: I'm wondering what people are thinking about in terms of how wallets display skills as opposed to achievements and assertions and and and I think all of a sudden I'm sort of like I've had this sort of light bulb moment that skills are even more of a granular step down from an open badge or from any kind of a credential and how are we how are we thinking about.
Kimberly Linson: And I was sort of just a like a rant but if anyone else wants to jump in and kind of add with their thinking I'd love to hear it.
Rachel_Donahue_(she/they)_-_Digital_Promise: And right yeah I was looking into some of the other wallets that were out there and I saw this one company is using Rich skill descriptors it's something again that I'm kind of new to so I'm not exactly sure how they are attached to a credential or if it's like a separate type of recognition object but I think that I don't know if anyone else here knows a lot of.
Rachel_Donahue_(she/they)_-_Digital_Promise: about that but I.
Rachel_Donahue_(she/they)_-_Digital_Promise: Learn more about that as well and I think that that might be a good Avenue of connection between sharing those more granular skills outside of a specific credential or achievement.
Colin_Reynolds,_Ed_Design_Lab: I really appreciate this conversation and sharing for walking through that all the plug test details but I want to kind of go further I'll let somebody else talk about rich scale descriptors and ours dies because those I think are definitely have a place in this especially as we think about like an open-source freely available staff to build on but given point around skills and the way that the those are coded in the way that those are presented we've been doing a lot.
Colin_Reynolds,_Ed_Design_Lab: ah to work with employers and HR Tech providers.
Colin_Reynolds,_Ed_Design_Lab: Of the their view on digital credentials learning and employment records clrs like all these pieces and one thing that continues to come up is the view or the perspective of an individual's learning record whatever that looks like from the different stakeholder perspective so if I have a wallet and I'm viewing my achievements my skills would have you inside that wallet and prepare that or connect that to an HR.
Colin_Reynolds,_Ed_Design_Lab: our platform.
Colin_Reynolds,_Ed_Design_Lab: Export something as a resume to share with you know application tracking system or a potential employer what does that view like on their side how do they ingest that a content and then how are they how is it appearing and their dashboards so that's something that we you know as we think about some of the different stakeholders in the views of these skills or wondering how can we package it or help unpack the packaged in a way that makes most sense.
Colin_Reynolds,_Ed_Design_Lab: sense for the stakeholders that are viewing.
Colin_Reynolds,_Ed_Design_Lab: That makes sense.
Harrison_Tang: Questions in regards to Collins coming.
Harrison_Tang: Hi Sharon you're next in the queue.
Sharon Leu: Great that's a great comment and a great question and I think that this is also the question that we have about what interoperability demonstrate the way that I have always needed is that you know there are standards for the credential and then within the credential which is the credential design aspects of this there are they're sort of another level of interoperability that needs to happen with the.
Sharon Leu: The skills data so at JFK.
Sharon Leu: You encourage people that we work with so we support a number of projects that involves you know developing training programs or developing you know you know Workforce Pathways and we always ask people like we tried to ask people this you can't obviously make anyone do anything they don't want to do but to do the hard work of using linked open data to describe the skills that are within the credentials and provide sufficient detailed information about like what did a.
Sharon Leu: Person have to do to earn the credential in addition to some of.
Sharon Leu: Engine Providence data and that and I think what where that gets us is like what intelligence can you then generate based on the data that's within the credential right so you have almost two problems that you've identified Kimberly one is the credential portability so can the credential move from place to place and then the second question which is once it's moved to a secondary location for verification what is the person looking at and what do they hope to know.
Sharon Leu: No from that credential and then sort of a sub.
Sharon Leu: Be the issue of you know which is all of the rage these days what does a wallet what can a wallet tell you about the things that are in the wallet and this is where I think we're in a little bit of a dangerous place so like I said it's all the rage AI career path finding that's like the number one kind of investment in Workforce Tech that's happening these days you know I think the phrase Google Maps for your.
Sharon Leu: Career comes up in almost every.
Sharon Leu: Here and the idea is you have a bunch of skills you've shared them to some system that will tell you based on the skills that you have here are some possible job opportunities or training opportunities or you know based on what you're interested in pursuing here are some things that you can do to fill your skills Gap the reason I think this is dangerous is twofold number one I think that we don't know like how those AI Bots were trained and whether those recommendations are good or bad.
Sharon Leu: Because it's not the same.
Sharon Leu: Same as Netflix telling me to watch a show and I thumbs-down it there's very rarely a feedback loop back to the algorithm to say whether this was a good bad or okay recommendation the second thing is what does a wallet see about you and does the wallet give you the ability to withhold the information so can the maker can Patagonia look inside my backpack do I give it permission what can it see I think the same applies which is why I'm like I do like.
Sharon Leu: A lot the idea.
Sharon Leu: Elected with closure that David mentioned earlier so I just I think that this is an interesting idea of the skills I think is it the most important thing I don't know I can be convinced and but do I think it opens up a conversation about what else is make some more robust verifiable credentials ecosystem I think absolutely so I don't know that doesn't answer the question but I feel like those in my my rants about it.
Harrison_Tang: Great thanks Frank.
Frank_Cicio: Yeah hi can you hear me.
Frank_Cicio: Great Sharon great presentation great effort on jmf I really think it's very important to verify information it's a growing need it's out there players are looking for that Educators as well as the individuals in terms of the question I was asked on skills so I Q4 we have spent a lot of time on the digging deep into solving.
Frank_Cicio: Old problem and that skills problem it does get down to that level of granularity I forget who it was who brought up the the comment before in the OSN the open skills Network that's referred to as Rich skill descriptors and the nice framework for example in some security it's referred to as knowledge skills and abilities this is what we call a tear for skill meaning it's a descriptor of somebody's knowledge or ability or skill.
Frank_Cicio: to do.
Frank_Cicio: I think it's also similar to a job requisition task so as you all know organizations spend a lot of time describing what they're looking for and those are descriptors they're not just a single word and also similar to what we see as learning outcomes for curriculum so what's the common thread through all of this it is a level of granularity that's common among curriculum.
Frank_Cicio: job requirements.
Frank_Cicio: And individual's ability and bringing that together is is absolutely critical and not using a i necessarily but using a robust data schema data model that provides multiple texts on Emmy's to interoperate together so that at the end of the day if I upload a credential from Western Governors University or from any.
Frank_Cicio: Parse that data into a level of granularity that really can describe what I'm capable of doing there's two parts to that okay if we look at the RSD S1 is a direct correlation between the metadata in that credential because a lot of credentials do have that level of granularity into the skills of that individual the other component is it may not.
Frank_Cicio: not have that.
Frank_Cicio: Hilarity it may need to cross-reference credential engine and the registry in the metadata located there so we can then extrapolate that information and compare it to some tech sodomy standard or at least some taxonomy that's similar to the skills and the content that's related to that credentials so to wrap it up I do agree with you the next step really is.
Frank_Cicio: These credentials into a level of granularity that could be understood between Educators individuals and employers I hope that helps a little bit.
Sharon Leu: You know I actually wasn't suggesting oh sorry Kimberly I but but it and I just wanted to clarify wasn't necessarily suggesting that like skills is where the next plugfest is going because actually wants was thinking that we would keep it on the technical interoperable the credential itself.
Sharon Leu: Got it yes yep.
Frank_Cicio: Height and Sharon I didn't mean that wasn't pointed at the next step that was pointed there was another lady that I brought up she looked at our SDS and was just wondering World War would get that that that's where I was focused on that sorry about that that I should have made that call.
Harrison_Tang: Yeah so I just want to make a note on kind of skills data so I'm at company Spokeo for talent analytics we just use LinkedIn telling insights data so actually knows people from LinkedIn working on that project so they do a lot of etls and data standardization so if you go to LinkedIn and then in a skills section all the skills and you can be very very granular.
Harrison_Tang: or like by granular.
Harrison_Tang: II meant you're going to a job development snow and then even more granular than that all the skills actually are standardized to Wikipedia definitions so that's how much time resources and effort they put into cleaning and standardizing the skills data so so that's what we use because when we first trying to do data analysis on skills data and by the way skills are.
Harrison_Tang: Define as.
Harrison_Tang: What people know right so it's different from experience we call it experience which actually mapped to work education achievements and and also different from competencies which is like basically behaviors and how you do things like so just leadership and so on so on so skills we defined as what people know when we're doing data analysis standardizations would realize that linking data is actually the best so just want to share that little knowledge.
Harrison_Tang: All right any other comments.
Kimberly Linson: So I just want to add in Sharon I'm sorry to kind of do real this on the skills but I do think one of the things that it has brought to my mind is that you know we already have a place in in the credential to make these links to two credential engine Rich skill descriptors and and that's on need to maybe make better use of that but I do I do want to ask you just sort of I know we're approaching the end of time so.
Kimberly Linson: You know what can we as a community.
Kimberly Linson: Provide for you to sort of help you make a decision around you know the focus of plugfest for and then I guess my like selfish question is and do you have any like ideas around like when you think plugfest for will it be the spring will it be fall will it be 25 just as you know it's the time of year we're all thinking about our 24 road maps.
Sharon Leu: Got it yes that's a great question I wish I had a more clear answer for you but on our team's roadmap is in the spring we're actually going to do a refresh of our digital wallets markets can and we're going to take a slightly different approach this is not going to be are there more verifiable credential while it's in the ecosystem the question that we're going to ask is in developing this markets being we identified four areas of impact that we thought could really.
Sharon Leu: We make a difference for our particular use case.
Sharon Leu: And they involve you know I will drop the link and I cannot do this very quickly but what we're looking at is a little bit more of an exploration of how to identify that those are the characteristics whether they are the correct ones and how you might Implement if you are an implementer that hasn't done that yet or how you might procure something that has those characteristics so it'll be more a deep dive into like wallet anatomy and physiology.
Sharon Leu: She then it.
Sharon Leu: Be a refresh Loom Escape so that's what we have coming in the spring also coming in the spring what we're doing is we have we have contracted with a survey firm to do a survey of job Seekers to get a sense for with the population who has done a job search within the last 6 months how many of them were able to use a digital credential in that process when and how and whether they use digital wallets we think that will be a really interesting.
Sharon Leu: Nation since there have previously been surveys around.
Sharon Leu: Consider non resume non transcript information in their hiring as well as surveys of institutions of higher education for what they issue so we think that will really round out our picture of you know the scalability of this and so then as a result of that our team is a little bit busy through the spring and we might do this we might kick it off in the summer for fall again.
Sharon Leu: How to contribute this seems like far away but actually preparing the resources for something like this does take a minute so I would love for you know people to have a conversation about this I can kick it off I think I'll what I can do is I will reply all to the thread with the recording and the slides and we can have a conversation on the listserv about that or everyone is welcome to send me an email with your thoughts and perhaps we'll have you know an open sort of webinar.
Sharon Leu: Type discussion in early 20:24 to continue this conversation.
Harrison_Tang: Great thank you.
Harrison_Tang: Yellow last questions or comments.
<sharon_leu> Thanks for hosting me! Please send a note if you have thoughts:
Harrison_Tang: All right so we're at time so thank you Sharon for jumping on and actually great presentations and less was like leading this discussion in regards to the clock best the summarizing the last three Professor so I was like previewing what my cam in the future so thanks a lot alright so just before we conclude this one give a quick shout-out to will again thank you for being the co-chair and.
Harrison_Tang: joining me and Camberley to help.
<colin_reynolds,_ed_design_lab> Thanks all!
Harrison_Tang: D together and then as I mentioned earlier just long solicit developer volunteers to help us build a script to automate the process of publishing the video recordings and that's it so this concludes this week's ccg meeting so thanks for hopping on have a good one.
<frank_cicio> thank you