The W3C Credentials Community Group

Meeting Transcriptions and Audio Recordings (2014-today)

Go Back

W3C CCG Weekly Teleconference

Transcript for 2024-01-30

Our Robot Overlords are scribing. Our Robot Overlords are scribing.
Harrison_Tang: Welcome everyone to this week's w3g meeting so today we have uh Gabe uh Gabe Hogan Ken from TVD to actually talk about the ID DHT uh there was a very interesting conversation Thread about a month ago and uh I think uh some people some people actually pay me and said hey can we bring Gabe on to have this discussion and uh very excited to have him here and thanks him again for taking the time uh to actually drop by and talk about the idea BHT.
Harrison_Tang: Before we we uh start I just want to uh go over the code of ethics and professional conduct reminder I just want to make sure that we have a friendly and uh productive respectful conversation I think we've been doing that for years but still uh doesn't hurt to have that quick reminder at the beginning of every meeting.
Harrison_Tang: Next uh a quick intellectual property note anyone can participate in these calls however all substantive uh contributions to any ccg work items must be member of the ccg with full IPR agreement signed so if you have any questions in regards to the w3c account or the w3c come near the contributor license agreement uh please just uh ping any of the culture here whether it's uh uh Kimberly uh will or myself.
Harrison_Tang: Try a quick call note uh these meetings are being automatically recorded and transcribed and we uh try to uh publish it in the next few days I think we have been quite timely recently but uh if you have encounter any issues with that uh feel free to obtain us as well.
Harrison_Tang: We use a GT chat to 2 speakers during the call uh you can type in Q Plus to add yourself to the queue or cue minus 2 to remove and you can type in Q question mark uh to see who is in the queue.
Harrison_Tang: All right um is customary just want to give a give a quick moment uh for introductions and reintroductions uh if you're new to the community where you haven't been.
Harrison_Tang: Deduce yourself uh please just feel free to unmute.
Harrison_Tang: Actually I see a lot of new faces but uh.
Harrison_Tang: I won't call names.
Gerald_Glickman: Okay I'm happy.
Nis Jespersen : So hey yeah I've uh been on meetings before but it's been a while Frank hick from uh the TBD Team part of block.
Vriti: Hi I'm Rudy Seraph also have been to meetings in the past but it's been a while uh I am the founder of ed3 Dao we're a community of Educators looking at blockchain and uh other credentialing Technologies to move education forward.
Gerald_Glickman: Hi this is Gerald Glickman uh first time attending a meeting here thank you all I work in fraud and identity risk management at MVB Bank.
Harrison_Tang: Any anyone else want to uh introduce or reintroduce themselves.
Pierre-Antoine_Champin_(W3C): Uh hi children chopper from w3c um I'm team contact of the did working group uh but not so much attending this uh this CG on a regular basis um.
Pierre-Antoine_Champin_(W3C): Yeah I've been here a few times before and I'm looking forward to today's presentation.
Harrison_Tang: Welcome and no problem uh feels you know even if you can join us once in a while we always welcome you.
Harrison_Tang: Right uh announcements and reminders are there any news that or announcements that people want to share uh if so uh feel free to just unmute or type in Q Plus.
Harrison_Tang: All right uh any updates or questions on the work items.
Harrison_Tang: All right last calls for introductions reintroductions announcements or work items related topics.
Harrison_Tang: All right uh so let's get to the main agenda um.
Harrison_Tang: Again uh very glad to have Gabe here to talk about uh did D DHT which stands for decentralized identifiers distributed hash table actually most recently uh we have uh more topics on selected disclosures and cryptography so I think uh having a session on the decentralized identifiers uh is actually a good call and a very good glad to see all these uh new faces here so uh thank you gate for giving us opportunity uh to draw new members and new audiences but without further Ado uh okay the floor is yours thank you.
Gabe: Thank you thank you Harrison for inviting me and hello everyone brief intro my name is scape Cohen I'm a.
Gabe: head of.
Gabe: Director of Open Standards at TBD and focused on taking things from the standards world to implementations and I've been in the space for a number of years now maybe just over 5 years and TBD for those who don't know I'll drop some links um is a business unit inside block similar to how Google became alphabet block became Square sorry Square became block and uh there are a number of business units under it you might have heard of square or cash app or title and we're a new 1 called CBD that's focused on decentralized financial um products making the the centralized Financial World accessible for everyone.
Gabe: And in this um project we make every use of dids and verifiable credentials and decentralized data storage.
Gabe: So we are looking for a few sets a few did methods that make sense for for our usages and historically I can go into what we've used they'll share my screen in a second but we've we've recently come to think that uh did DHT is what we like and are going to use from now on so I'll go into a bit more detail but please put your questions in the chat I'm interested to hear any and all feedback.
Gabe: let me.
Gabe: Share my screen I also want.
Gabe: To note that there are.
Gabe: Um please feel free to interject if you think I've missed an important detail.
Gabe: So I won't tell you what did methods are I'm going to assume that most people know what they are um so at the start of TBD we supported a number of methods our primary method was ion which is a side tree based in method from the decentralized identity Foundation we also supported web and digit okay they all have their steps of trade-offs.
Gabe: But we liked eye on the most because it was the most robust feature wise it was permissionless you didn't really have to trust anyone uh it had strong ordering so you could rotate in store keys of many different types and sizes and you could have uh different properties it did have some downsides uh the ux was kind of tough there's this concept of long form identifiers.
Gabe: In short form identifiers and you had to wait for a Bitcoin transaction to make it to the blockchain to have certainty in your did State and waiting 10 minutes wasn't a great ux for some of the real-time use cases we're looking at.
Gabe: Um also it was it's pretty complex architecturally to deploy and maintain and there weren't that many nodes out there so in theory decentralized what I like to call decentralized but in practice not that decentralized if 1 or 2 people are really the only ones supporting the network.
Gabe: So we're trying to think of a method that could actually be decentralized and meet our business use cases.
Gabe: Did web of course is is useful and interesting but not decentralized because it relies on traditional web infrastructure.
Gabe: Methods like did he or did jbu K are are useful for some use cases but not that robust and functionality and that you can't rotate keys or add additional properties like service endpoints so we're less interested in that.
Gabe: And looking at the did methods.
Gabe: Uh we're out there.
Gabe: We couldn't really find any of that gave us the guarantees we wanted without buying into a blockchain or certain Ledger technology that we saw as uh not a great business decision.
Gabe: So there are research started.
Gabe: So did the HT came up with after a number of months of research last year.
Gabe: Stands for decentralized hash table more specifically a DHT for those who are unaware you could think of it as a map of keys to values um that is distributed so it doesn't just live in 1 server or 1 Network it lives across a number of servers and networks um.
Gabe: You might be familiar with ipfs ipfs has a DHD.
Gabe: Um there are others as well and we're using a DHT that has a very good track record.
Gabe: More specifically it's the bid torrent THD you might think bit torrent oh.
Gabe: Why um and you you'd be right but something interesting about bit toin is that it's been around for over 20 years makes up a ton of internet traffic and is actually widely adopted by many Fortune 500 companies like Google Facebook um Ubuntu many other uh companies use it for Distributing software and updates Microsoft does this for example.
Gabe: So there are less controversial uses of it it's a neutral Network and it has a really good track record.
Gabe: The DHT for a bit torn is called Mainline and it's been around for about 15 of these 22 years.
Gabe: Millions of nodes over 15 million on average every day it varies.
Gabe: And um yeah my research over a thousand organizations using it.
Gabe: so we.
Gabe: Wondering if we.
Gabe: And the network is already decentralized which is really attractive to us.
Gabe: Because we don't have to bootstrap a new network and there's no blockchain involved we don't have to sell anyone coin.
Gabe: So what is the DHC.
Gabe: It is built on an open source Community project called the car I will drop the link in the chat in a second and the car's goal is.
Gabe: To create a thin network uh overlay between the domain name system.
Gabe: And um peer-to-peer overlay networks so.
Gabe: Real goal is to reimagine what a DNS server could look like and ask what would a DNS server be if.
Gabe: Joe your unmuted.
Gabe: So par stands for public key addressable resource records and the goal here is to.
<joe_andrieu> sorry. my microphone is crazy
Gabe: Uh create a linkage between the DNS system and verifiable Records.
Gabe: Using the bit torrent DHD.
Gabe: And we thought this was a pretty interesting project because all the records are signed and independently verifiable there are some restrictions uh namely you have to have records under a thousand bytes and you have to be republishing the records aren't guaranteed to stay around forever uh on average.
Gabe: we found.
Gabe: Testing they could.
Gabe: Set up for.
Gabe: Day or so but the.
Gabe: Only strong guarantees are a couple hours.
Gabe: So with these constraints we wondered if it would work but so far it's proven to be pretty good and we've put in a number of um.
Gabe: Interesting specific considerations in our design to account and work around these.
Gabe: So most notably it has all features you need from did um you could.
Gabe: As long as you're within that a thousand bite limit you could add any property you want to did document you could have different key types you can have different services.
Gabe: There are some built-in empty spam measures um.
Gabe: Daniel came up with a neat idea to do.
Gabe: Um an empty spam.
Gabe: Mechanism called a retention proof.
Gabe: Essentially means that you calculate a hash.
Gabe: And depending on the amount of work you put into this hash it's a signal to the node you submit it to to retain it for longer it's an optional feature um.
Gabe: there's an.
Gabe: Be a Bitcoin and some other um mechanisms we're exploring so we wanted to never require you use Bitcoin or any Ledger but we wanted to make it an optional mechanism that you could discover nodes that are going to um retain and republish your data.
Gabe: It's worth noting that you could use any of the 15 million nodes that are out there today um you would have to handle the republishing yourself.
Gabe: So we make a distinction between pekar nodes.
Gabe: Our nodes and the bit torque nodes and our nodes are kind of a added layer with a bunch of nice utilities and guarantees and apis that manage your did I republish it for you and help you discover um.
Gabe: Interestingly we we've Daniel had a neat idea to upgrade and place did he dig jwk methods we think this could be really promising.
Gabe: Um in the sense that.
Gabe: You treat both methods as they are today uh garant if they have.
Gabe: Um any 25519 key uh which is required by uh bit torrent DHD.
Gabe: So assuming that they did your digit wek or did key have an ed25519 key you could resolve and use the dids as they are today but do an optional resolution step to check the DHT for more information and the records are all signed so you're always going to be able to trust that it came from the controller of those keys.
Gabe: So far we've talked to the spec authors for both methods uh he and jwk and they're amenable to accepting an extension for an optional resolution step to the DHD so it's kind of uh.
Gabe: These did methods superpowers.
Gabe: Um so I mentioned the Thousand bite maximum payload size 1 thing we had to do to um go around this was Define a mapping to uh compress format and because pekar uses or aims to be a replacement for DNS servers they use the DNS resource records.
Gabe: We had to define a mapping of did documents to DNS resource records.
Gabe: Um hopefully this could be an independent spec if anyone in the group is interested in that please let me know.
Gabe: So far it's a part of our spec but we're thinking a mapping of did cdns records could be more broadly useful.
Gabe: So there's this translation that happens between I did document a DNS record and then it's transformed to a packet.
Gabe: Encoded and compressed and then sent to um a DHT server.
Gabe: Is independently verifiable.
Gabe: And we've been running a free Gateway today uh to show how committed we are we want to implemented the speck in a number of different languages and have been running a free server for the past few months uh without failure and have a few thousand DS already.
Gabe: So our main goal over the next few months is to harden our implementation uh we've been accepting a lot of feedback onto the spec itself which would be great to have the groups feedback on I'll put a link in the chat for that.
Gabe: We hope to uh move it to a different organization right now it's just under the TBD name but we hope to put it in the ITF w3c maybe diff or somewhere else we're open wherever folks are interested.
Gabe: We aim to fully transition to DHT for our default did method at dbd which is.
Gabe: pretty much true.
Gabe: As of today.
<daniel> I am here
Gabe: Um there is a 1 last thing but before I get to it um anyone from TBD.
Gabe: On the call have anything to add that I missed Daniel or anyone else.
Gabe: I did I did yeah.
Daniel Buchner: Did you go through the uh the did JWT and uh key um what do you call it um you did okay where people just really excited I was the.
Daniel Buchner: Was the reception warm.
Gabe: I have not heard a reception yet.
Daniel Buchner: Okay we'll ask them.
Gabe: Okay so the 1 more thing.
Gabe: Um there there is a it did working group that's being rechartered currently and 1 of the thoughts or asks was to have uh did methods that.
Gabe: rise to.
Gabe: Standardization or a formalization that probe out interoperability.
Gabe: And in the past did have gotten a lot of flack for many reasons.
Gabe: Um but the 2 that send out to me are that they use the blockchain or bad for the environment or we're actually decentralized or fully featured according to the dcore spec and we think this did method while it does have some limitations is is pretty damn good in that it is truly decentralized.
Gabe: Can be fully featured and could have pretty broad adoption.
Gabe: An existing and the new method.
Gabe: so we're.
Gabe: This could be a dead method that creates a path towards adoption and browsers or um yeah industry-wide adoption Daniel go ahead.
Daniel Buchner: Yeah I think the thing to underscore here is you know everyone you know how this all started years and years ago everyone had their own did method uh they all had their own fun blockchain it was all tokens everywhere and of course there was this like incentive to um you know push your own thing right let's let's be honest um and I think the 1 cool thing about this is there's there's 2 things to be mindful of 1 there are a lot of companies in w3c that do not like anything attached to a blockchain um while some other people like even myself like Bitcoin I don't believe in Bitcoin um.
Daniel Buchner: They may not receive that the same right um and we want this to be a viable thing I think the 1.
Daniel Buchner: Would be a meth.
Daniel Buchner: Bypasses both the blockchain you know dislike.
Daniel Buchner: Do our own thing is that it really it's using Mainline DHT for bit Torrance Network which is just been around for so long and it's sort of just this thing that everyone's come to accept even large companies like those and so that's why I think it's got the best shot not because it's like is the best method we could ever construct does it have every single crazy feature you could ever imagine no but it has most of them and it doesn't have any really contested points I think that's the biggest thing right it's even compatible with other small you know like more contained in methods like did jbk and key and I think those things together kind of are a little bit of magic that we might be able to work um if people are you know want to jump on board.
Gabe: Yeah I thanks Daniel 1 thing to note is we we're pretty reflective of the shortcomings and opportunities that we saw and I would encourage you to read through the spec the both implementation considerations and security and privacy considerations where we go over all the different possible attack vectors and our current mitigations are thinking around mitigations.
Gabe: That is all I had prepared I would love to take questions and comments um.
Gabe: If it's possible Harrison um but thank you.
Harrison_Tang: If anyone has questions please type in Q Plus into.
Harrison_Tang: uh chat.
Harrison_Tang: I got 1 question um so earlier you talked about like uh.
Harrison_Tang: For the main line because bit to is a main line like you have to republish it like every few hours or so so can you clarify how do you actually address the Persistence of the identifiers if you have to keep republishing.
Harrison_Tang: Republishing it to the main line.
Gabe: Yeah it's a good question so there's this fun diagram at the top that shows how we think of the system at the bottom everything's built on Mainline it's what provides the guarantees then there's this open source project called the car which we're leveraging and then there's the DHT.
Gabe: And each of them have their own servers so you could use a standard uh Mainline DHT node you could use a car node.
Gabe: or you could.
Gabe: Ght you know.
Gabe: Each of them.
Gabe: We're actually building our our own server that handles your publishing for you.
Gabe: So you could not trust us that's fine you could go directly to Mainline DHC or pekar node.
Gabe: and handle.
Gabe: But if you submit it to our node um we'll handle republishing on your behalf.
Gabe: Along with offering you um some nice things around Discovery or um indexing.
Daniel Buchner: Yeah and that's to underscore that um you know while Mainline forgets you know things at a faster rate that's why you do this to our republishing and we handle that for you um did DHT nodes will be indexable by certain uh Registries so that you can go to those nodes and they'll you know sort of the guarantee they provide is not just that they're going to republish but they'll keep them for longer um based on you doing some work you know some other little um me mechanics that are involved and so you can go to them and you could like you know ask for just did and they're very special interested in this right they like we're not just interested in any Mainline record just anything we're interested in did base Mainline records so they they uh they keep them you know longer if you specify that and that's a good place to go to query if you want some like features on top of what Mainline would give you in terms of fetching.
Harrison_Tang: Any questions for anyone.
Gabe: I'm curious um anyone who is implementing or using dids in their stack would you be interested in using the DHT or if not what would hold you back.
Harrison_Tang: I don't see any comments here but uh.
Harrison_Tang: Question like can you kind of give us a a I guess for the potential implementers like can you kind of give us a quick rundown of the pros and cons of of uh you know DHT uh compared to other more common well earlier we talked about the DHT versus ion but uh can you actually provide pros and cons of other methods yeah.
Gabe: Yeah it would be easier if there was a specific method uh to go through but generally independent verifiability is a shining feature you don't have to trust our nodes or a DHT node all records are signed by uh the key used in the the document which we're calling an identity key.
Gabe: Um so you don't have to trust us or anyone all records are independently verified uh you could have.
Gabe: Different properties multiple different key types.
Gabe: And your we have a a small registry where you can add extensions should you wish to.
Gabe: Others are able to encode into code your your did method uh did documents.
Gabe: I would also say.
Gabe: It's actually decentralized it propagates to 1 of these 15 million nodes almost instantly and we've done tests where I'm in California and my colleagues in Australia and they could resolve it within a few seconds so almost instantly you have really strong centralization and resolution guarantees.
Gabe: Other thing that.
Gabe: We didn't like about some existing did methods is they didn't provide historical resolution which means after you change your did State you're not able to see.
Gabe: Which could be really risky like if you rotate off a key and use a lot of uh you signed a lot of data with that key you rotate it off there's now no way for anyone to verify um the data that you signed.
Gabe: So we see like historical resolution has a really key feature and using our our Gateway nodes we were able to order events um with a sequence number provided by the DHT.
Gabe: And provide historical resolution.
Gabe: Of did documents.
Gabe: those are.
Gabe: Some of the.
Gabe: To go into.
Harrison_Tang: Brandy you're on the queue.
Gabe: We're hopeful that most people end up using gateways whether it's ours or their own and we've made all of our code open source to that end so we we really want to encourage people to be able to to run their own gateways and handle their own republishing should they want to and there's no need to rely on us or another server and I just put a link in the chat to that.
Daniel Buchner: And something something to um be mindful of is that.
Daniel Buchner: Because all you need to do in re rebroadcasting these events to Mainline dhts have UDP ability so while browsers can't do it extensions can native apps can on every platform access UDP so all you really need to do to be completely self-publishing to that network is have your device you know an app on your device like a wall a d Wallet app or BC app or something that understands the IDS wake up at intervals right maybe every hour maybe every 2 hours whatever it is um and those are typically allowed right just doing a single UDP push out is something that um you can actually do and a lot of native platforms uh just on a contrast and so that allows you to have no you know you don't have to trust anyone right you can just have your device and some device of yours is on even if you didn't republish with a Gateway and didn't do the the things that do perpetually keep it going um you yourself with just your own devices could pretty easily um make sure that it's always resolvable.
Harrison_Tang: I got a follow-up business question so what's the cost involved uh for did DHT because earlier in your slide I see the word free but most of the did methods like you have to pay some um.
Harrison_Tang: Like some kind of fee right maybe not in US dollars but in some kind of cryptocurrency uh to actually anchor it uh to to I mean I'm talking about different uh.
Harrison_Tang: Did you realize your uh based of the ideas you have to pay some kind of uh fees uh to to Anchor it on top of those ledgers so like what are the costs involved is it truly free.
Gabe: Yeah the only real cost is running a server um there's another cost which I talked briefly about earlier around a retention proof and that's our entity spam measure.
Gabe: Certainly someone could send a million uh registration or query requests to our server and that wouldn't be great.
Gabe: We have a feature called the retention proof which is similar to.
Gabe: Coin called proof of work.
Gabe: We don't require Bitcoin we don't require this retention proof it's an optional feature that nodes could employ as an anti-spam measure.
Gabe: Um so if you want your did retained you're going to do this half.
Gabe: And the more hashing you've done it's a stronger signal to the node to retain your did for longer.
Gabe: So nodes that are experiencing spam could enable this feature and or or want to prevent it in the first place they can enable this feature require that people submitting new did operations Hash a bit and that will give you guarantees around how long your data is retained.
Daniel Buchner: Yeah effectively the 2 costs are um the biggest cost on running 1 of these nodes there's there's storage um actually the biggest 1 is Ayo right doing those those uh UDP pushes um is is a cost and you can straight up you know if you run that at scale uh on your own machine at home or whatever you can do the electricity and the you know IO you know stuff on your own machine um and and see what that would be for personal set of DS and then obviously a larger Gateway provider can can just you know make their hosting in the cloud or their you know some infrastructure you can see what it costs for per call for Io write a lot if you're doing it on a cloud they actually publish like this is how much a million requests is right so you can you can do the math pretty easily the other thing he was talking about were retention proof is effectively um if you're going to talk to a gateway gateway is that follow the the DHT spec um basically just sort the um cache list of dids that they're republishing based on the proof of.
Daniel Buchner: The work that you provide.
Daniel Buchner: So the more work.
Daniel Buchner: Um the longer your did will be retained because it's going to be farther up the stack right it's not going to fall off the stack and so that's you know that's the the work that you have to put in and that's just CPU Cycles so.
Daniel Buchner: That makes sense.
Nis Jespersen : Yeah another thing to add to some organizations we've talked about um using this as a basis for their applications.
Nis Jespersen : Know consider I guess the the proof of work approach is is kind of a fully decentralized approach where you put the work on the client that's requesting to register and keep you know retained and did that keeps getting published every couple hours but the alternative also if an organization as a reason to maintain these is just simply to gate the registration process right so it can be even simpler than that we're the only ones who can add to our set of nodes we maintain the nodes and then you know ultimately because resolution can come directly from any of the 15 million lines they really only have to maintain a very small bit of infrastructure that just keeps that republishing going every client regardless of which implementation they use can always resolve and so in some sense you know the maintenance overhead can be as decentralized and open as you'd like or as controlled if it's for a specific application that wants to ensure that the associated dids are being continually refreshed.
Gabe: Yeah and the approach we have taken doesn't exclude paid models like certainly someone could if you think it's a good business idea set up a paid Gateway and I don't know pay 5 dollars to retain your did for a year or or something like that.
Harrison_Tang: So I'm curious like what about the historical resolution it's like who's storing those histories is this gateways uh responsibility to store that.
Gabe: That's right yeah that's right um so the Assumption there is that you're talking to the same Gateway and if you're always using the same gateway then they're going to become aware of um.
Gabe: All the different states of your did we have some ideas to improve that and communicate between gateways but we haven't gotten to that quite yet.
Harrison_Tang: Well I'm sorry.
Nis Jespersen : Yeah by by default the main line DHD nodes basically just keep the most recent High sequence number so they're going to only keep the the last 1 um I guess worth noting too there's nothing that stops you from going offline and then coming back you know 20 days later and Publishing your data again it's not like the the state clearly won't be resolvable but.
Nis Jespersen : Mainline DHT has built-in.
Nis Jespersen : You know this.
Nis Jespersen : Whatever the last.
Nis Jespersen : Whoever holds the private key material can always republish.
Nis Jespersen : Probably want to keep them around all the time but there may be application use cases where it's it's not necessary.
Harrison_Tang: Well I think you're on Q yeah.
Gabe: Yeah that's true um similar to did key and did jwk if you lose your root key you're in trouble.
Gabe: That is an unavoidable constraint of this method it relies on that.
Daniel Buchner: I don't think it has to be it's it's a choice of what you want to use you did for right like people it's kind of like saying well you do people rotate Bitcoin address is constantly probably not right they they we've shown that that network has been around 15 years and people are holding keys with 12 words and you know that's working so I think the 1s trade-off and it is it is a trade-off um but at the time that you know Ed 25519 is broken you know every the whole world's going to be using new TLS things like switching over and at that point you might switch your did over but we're talking about catastrophic loss and a lot of the other blockchain based methods they don't have it's it's not like they there's no way to lose it because if there was no way to lose it it's kind of this truism test in the world right if someone tells you there's no way that you can lose your dead then it's not a decentralized.
Daniel Buchner: Um there's a lot.
Daniel Buchner: Of other things.
Daniel Buchner: Stop gaps and like helpers but there's always a way to to lose your did right even with ion they had a recovery key but that's a recovery key if you lose that or the multisig behind it yeah you're you're you're done so.
Nis Jespersen : I mean I think another thing operationally too is especially for high security High Assurance scenarios you know likely that that root key the SoCal identity key is something you would not maintained in memory you know hot right and so because the did method allows you to have additional verification methods you would likely use those for things like credential issuance or other you know use cases where you're you're using the public cryptography and keep that identity keep protected.
Nis Jespersen : That's right yeah do you only need it for an update or deactivate.
Nis Jespersen : And there's.
Nis Jespersen : At this stage but.
Nis Jespersen : Um you know Ed keys do support the concept of a threshold signatures and so you could have you know a backup to the backup that is really a cold storage key that you only bring out in the event your your key your identity key was let's say lost and so.
Nis Jespersen : To do that um but still under research.
Gabe: Yeah 1 more thing to add is we probably could expand the section there on rotating to a new did and how you signal that um which would help here as well for folks that do want to rotate.
Nis Jespersen : Yeah I imagine you do that deactivate the old 1 and you put pointers to a new dead things like that techniques to to indicate that there's a redirect to a new did know just similar to every other dead method but.
Harrison_Tang: Any other questions.
<daniel> They really love to share files
Harrison_Tang: By the way this is just a curiosity curiosity question I'm not very familiar with Mainline but what's the incentive for people to kind of host the notes I mean earlier you mentioned there's 15 million notes what's the incentive because this is obviously most of us knows how distributed Ledger uh kind of uh work right what's the incentive Behind These blockchain networks but what's the incentive behind Mainline.
Gabe: Yeah as Daniel put in chat people really love to share files whether it's for legal or not purposes um people share content all the time and as long as.
Gabe: Torn is the best and most convenient way to do that then the network will live on and for the past 20 plus years that's been true um.
Daniel Buchner: It's basically like this like if I had to be crass about it and usually I am um.
Daniel Buchner: How how long do you believe that porn and piracy are going to exist and if you believe that that's going to be.
Daniel Buchner: You know outside the realm of all our lifetimes then you have pretty good layer of trust that Mainline is going to be wrong.
Daniel Buchner: So there you go.
Harrison_Tang: All right any other.
Gabe: Yeah so that would be a state where you're conflicting with yourself intentionally and nodes have a way to handle this they could notice that you're doing it and say we're not going to support you.
Gabe: Or they could sort your data Alexa graphically and choose the higher Alexa graphically sorted uh packet to be the true source and that is in the spec as a conflict resolution step.
Nis Jespersen : And yeah go and like all the way to the main line level nodes will not accept a new publish with the same sequence number.
Nis Jespersen : So here to gauge point if you're doing this yourself you can basically create.
Nis Jespersen : This scenario but only you can do that if you have the private key so it's a bit of an odd attack.
Harrison_Tang: Are any other questions from other.
Harrison_Tang: So earlier Daniel said that it's kind of hard to tell whether people like this uh the ID DHT or not so if you like uh the ID DHT or if you like today's presentation uh you can just do the virtual Applause in the middle in the middle of this button there's a little hand icon so you can do that in GT and Nick please oh sorry I think he misclicked so anyway so I uh I just want to say thank you again uh to Gabe Daniel Frank and uh TBD team uh for jumping on board uh to actually answer questions and hosted this uh discussion around the IDE DHT definitely a a very very interesting um.
Harrison_Tang: Remains to be seen this is the the ID that ends all the IDS but that's that is it is definitely a very very uh interesting uh new date methods that I think uh most of us should uh consider.
Gabe: Thank you for having us I I just want to quickly say um please give us feedback uh they did method is.
Gabe: Be driven by the community and if you have ideas to make it better we want to hear that but thanks for having me Sarah.
Harrison_Tang: Cool thank you and gate if you don't mind can you send me the link uh to the the ID DHT spec and then I can send it to the public list later so that people if people want to contribute to the spec or have comments they can do so.
Gabe: Sure just put in the chat.
Harrison_Tang: Right so uh last call for announcements reminders or work items.
Harrison_Tang: Great so I I think this concludes uh this week's w3c she G meeting uh so next week uh we will have uh modular open source identity platform uh you know coming next Tuesday and the week after that we'll have updates on Social Web uh community group uh so uh things like activity pop and fevers.
Harrison_Tang: Right thank you thanks a lot have a good 1 bye.