Dmitri Zagidulin: Harrison if you're speaking we can't hear you unless that's just me. ✪

Kimberly Linson: Now it's me too I just texted him to see if he. ✪

Kimberly Linson: If he wanted me to get started so I I will do that um so that we leave lots of time for you Demetri and I think what will be a very good discussion um. ✪

Kimberly Linson: Hi everyone uh welcome to this week's uh credentials community group meeting uh let me pull up my little. ✪

Kimberly Linson: Agenda cheat sheet um but I know that the very first thing on our agenda is to uh talk about professional conduct and just make that reminder that we are all uh striving towards the same goals um to make this technology accessible and usable. ✪

Kimberly Linson: And uh if you are interested in reviewing that uh policy in more detail it is uh Linked In the agenda. ✪

Kimberly Linson: If uh we definitely are glad you're here I see lots of folks on the call today um so if you are new to this group um we are very very happy that you're here and uh you are welcome to attend these meetings um and not be a member of the ccg but just uh come and join if you are interested though in um contributing to the work becoming a more active participant then we would ask that you go ahead and uh join. ✪

Kimberly Linson: The W individuals you can so you can check that out the links to that are also in the uh agenda. ✪

Kimberly Linson: We uh. ✪

Kimberly Linson: We keep minutes uh and recording of this of this meeting for uh future future interests and to keep an archive of what we've what we've been talking about um and we managed it uh via we manage the queue and the participation of um of. ✪

Kimberly Linson: Contributions using a queue system so if you're interested in have a question or have a comment on something that someone is saying then I would invite you to put Q Plus uh in the chat field and that will. ✪

Kimberly Linson: Um allow you 1 of the things that Harrison and I will be doing in well if he's on here too um we'll be monitoring that queue and making sure that everyone has the opportunity to contribute. ✪

Kimberly Linson: Let's see if you're done speaking and you don't want to uh you want to take yourself off the queue you can use Q minus. ✪

Kimberly Linson: And uh that brings us I believe to um. ✪

Kimberly Linson: Introductions and reintroductions so if you are new to this community or you haven't been here for a while and you'd like to uh. ✪

Kimberly Linson: Introduce yourself or say hello to the group um go ahead and put yourself on the Queue and I will. ✪

Kimberly Linson: Okay thank you um well no 1 No 1 uh wants to to introduce or reintroduce themselves but I'm hoping that someone uh might have uh an update or uh a community sort of notification that they want to share with us uh so that is our next section. ✪

Kimberly Linson: Updates and reminders. ✪

Kimberly Linson: Demetri everyone is very excited for you to to have plenty of time. ✪

Kimberly Linson: And yes sign up for the April iiw if you haven't already. ✪

Kimberly Linson: All right any questions or comments about work items. ✪

Kimberly Linson: All right well that brings us to the end of our housekeeping notes and so I will go ahead and turn it over to Dmitri. ✪

Dmitri Zagidulin: Slides: https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1PeobsC6TQC8ahaunNfD6hgtK_V51dHDQuUHcEDqIREA ✪

Dmitri Zagidulin: Thank you so much uh really excited to be here uh okay so uh. ✪

Dmitri Zagidulin: Oh let me just share my screen as well. ✪

Dmitri Zagidulin: Uh so some welcome everyone uh. ✪

Dmitri Zagidulin: We figured that the Social Web community group another 1 of uh w3c CGS uh has a lot of overlap with uh what we're doing here the ccg so we wanted to come visit. ✪

Dmitri Zagidulin: Uh tell tell everybody a little bit about what we're doing in Social Web CG and invite you to join the conversation uh. ✪

Dmitri Zagidulin: So hold on 1 second let's join. ✪

Dmitri Zagidulin: Or rather let's share screen is it sharing it is not sharing. ✪

Dmitri Zagidulin: Ah 1 second let me reconnect. ✪

Kimberly Linson: Demetri we see your slides but we are not hearing you if you're speaking. ✪

Kimberly Linson: Still nothing I wonder if you want to try going out and coming back in again. ✪

Kimberly Linson: And there you are. ✪

Juan Caballero: Should I should I do my best to meet you impersonation. ✪

Juan Caballero: I was. ✪

Juan Caballero: Helping him with. ✪

Juan Caballero: For the meeting. ✪

Juan Caballero: Because I just like. ✪

Juan Caballero: Uh there um and I think maybe she doesn't hear us telling of his uh. ✪

Kimberly Linson: That that we can't are you able to like text him or something and tell him okay. ✪

Juan Caballero: Yeah yeah that's a I'll text them uh you. ✪

Bob Wyman: You might suggest that it try if you can't get the computer working try to come in on the phone for the for the audio. ✪

Juan Caballero: Yeah uh so um the the Social Web working group uh at w3c has a long complicated history and it gets a little um. ✪

Juan Caballero: Uh it requires a bit of familiarity with the w3c nomenclature so it was a working group which you know would be the equivalent of like VC working group or dead working group uh for 4 years and the the sort of scope and intention of that working group was to um aligned or unify a really splintered landscape there were a lot of different communities and things working out there. ✪

Juan Caballero: Um in the wild that wanted to have a more you know the the the wanted to have a shared and open platform across them um uh may maybe Evan would like to speak to this I wasn't there. ✪

Juan Caballero: And and uh the the um sorry I'll try to share the slides or something I don't know what I don't know what Dmitri is doing over there um. ✪

Juan Caballero: The um working group sort of uh shipped the the um. ✪

Juan Caballero: Trcr everyone it's called Uh and went into hibernation I guess it it was the working group was spun down and the CG was spun up and sort of like governance transferred I don't know the exact mechanism or terminology for it but uh the community group became the steward of those CRS uh and. ✪

Juan Caballero: For a few. ✪

Juan Caballero: Mailing list was turned off there was there was sort of like very little activity at w3c and and most of the developer Community was working in like independent channels like Social Hub and codeberg. ✪

Juan Caballero: But you heard all of what we were saying so you know where where we are and how much we covered. ✪

Juan Caballero: So so uh yeah the the CG has now become more active again in the last 2 years mainly let's turn back on uh meetings TPAC um and that was the slide we were trying to impersonate you on. ✪

Juan Caballero: Uh I think I think the I think the slide is good to just read you could just leave it up for a second and you would uh anyone who missed a section while we were babbling might catch up um yeah I think it's I don't think you need to run through the Bullet by Bullet um. ✪

Juan Caballero: That accurate factual background okay go ahead. ✪

Juan Caballero: https://fediverse.party if people want to see the "daunting first step" for themselves :D ✪

Juan Caballero: https://about.iftas.org/ ✪

Bob Wyman: Yeah uh you kind of touched on it a number of times but a very specific thing okay that's relevant to the credentials um working group is is the fact that we need credentials um. ✪

Bob Wyman: In profiles right now or in essentially it's a social system but there's no way within that social system of being able to find out who the heck anybody is um or or what their attributes are for instance if somebody is like flaming on about. ✪

Bob Wyman: I don't know climate science I'd like to know that they're a professor at a university or they have a degree in the subject or they have some kind of qualification at the moment I I have no mechanism in the in the social network of of discovering that. ✪

Bob Wyman: And uh so a lot of the a lot of the stuff that the credentials Works uh group works on I think we we need uh in in the Social Web not for commercial purposes but just so we know who the heck we're speaking to um. ✪

Bob Wyman: Anyway I think uh the other thing if I could mention to sort of to add on you spoke about the issue with search you know people wanting to it's not a technological problem there to a great extent it's more a question of what what people want so it's a question of. ✪

Bob Wyman: Of of Rights um 1 of the issues that I think needs to be dealt with is the question of of text and data mining. ✪

Bob Wyman: Now for instance we have European a lot of the users of the social system do not want their content to be text or data mind um but we now have things like European laws that say that unless you explicitly state in your data uh some provide some sort of signal that uh that you're having text and data mining that uh a large number of people have an assumed right to do that uh irrespective of copyright law that's that's European law um so 1 of the things that we don't have is a way of making. ✪

Bob Wyman: A statement. ✪

Bob Wyman: About rights um particularly the the right to uh uh control text and data mining. ✪

Bob Wyman: And that's that maybe isn't that relevant to this group although you know it would be good to have it as a as a credential uh the TDM rep or the Texan data mining representation. ✪

Bob Wyman: I think it's representation uh working group with the w3c is is is probably a better context for that but it does relate. ✪

Juan Caballero: https://www.aisnakeoil.com/p/artists-can-now-opt-out-of-generative ✪

Bob Wyman: The z cap and some other kind of similar issues and odl and that sort of thing anyway so but the the the important thing I want to state was in the social system in the Social Web we need credentials we don't have any credentials now we really need credentials. ✪

Kaliya Young: Um sure I think Johannes joined the call um so maybe he can also speak to it but the fetty Forum. ✪

Kaliya Young: Catalyzed by Johannes and I'm helping him with it um using as Juan said the format that we use for virtual AWS using open space technology. ✪

Kaliya Young: The community of folks working in all things fed averse um connecting to each other Johannes do you want to. ✪

Kaliya Young: Share more about your inspiration and what you hope can come out of it. ✪

Kaliya Young: If he's here. ✪

Kaliya Young: He told me he was here on the back Channel but maybe he's not. ✪

Kaliya Young: Yeah but basically all things fed up for him and we make the agenda the day of the event so everything's welcome. ✪

Bob Wyman: Yeah I just wanted to clarify in response to what Ted was saying there's no question that search is often useful however in the social world it's it's something that large. ✪

Bob Wyman: Subset of the users. ✪

Bob Wyman: Um are actively in opposition to having their content be subject to search and it's because and it's 1 of the reasons they use. ✪

Bob Wyman: Activity part at the moment because it cannot be searched it's been found by a number of shall we say minority groups. ✪

Bob Wyman: Either racial or gender sexual whatever um that. ✪

Bob Wyman: If when search is available it becomes possible for bullies and uh uh trollers to discover um or to impute the Identity or the characteristics of individuals and then and then abuse them um and. ✪

Bob Wyman: And for those groups they are very vocal about the fact that they do not want. ✪

Bob Wyman: You know as Ted was saying search is generally useful and it's provided a lot of benefit to us all it provides a lot of benefit to those who are opposed to having their content be searched as well in other kinds of content but we need to respect um the fact that. ✪

Bob Wyman: Uh 1 1 Wrights 1 has rights over what right and and uh uh we need to find ways to uh provide search while respecting uh the authors uh the right holders uh desire not to be searched or or or data mind okay that's all. ✪

David Mason: Can you hear me. ✪

David Mason: Oh wonderful hey everyone it's been a while so um yeah so I actually um been researching um. ✪

David Mason: Set of Earth and activity Pub and activity streams to hopefully make a recommendation for a project. ✪

David Mason: And uh I initially asked you know is there a doc a document or something that would be this is how you would create an application. ✪

David Mason: And it didn't really seem to exist and then I started digging in and realizing that what there are is a lot of um discussions around all the different directions that's going in and all the problems and um. ✪

David Mason: You know. ✪

David Mason: I'd still like to. ✪

David Mason: Find a way. ✪

David Mason: Where I could today make you know legitimate uh uh application in this realm or at least um something that would be forward compatible uh but you know I've seen a lot of issues um that really make me hesitant around um making any kind of recommendation um other people have discussed different aspects of this but I mean the privacy concerns um around you know pill pillaging uh information I mean it's unsafe for some people today and I think for everyone in the long run if anyone's you know building these uh you know these models of people uh I think they can still do it with uh uh thought of verse um you know there's Bad actors uh you know including companies changing hands so good 1 day they're about the next there's box there's breaches there's. ✪

David Mason: Laws that change. ✪

David Mason: There's a servers that centralize a lot of information I mean as far as I understand Mastadon um. ✪

David Mason: I I appreciate that probably some of my points are not correct because it's quite tense but uh as far as I understand um on Master on um. ✪

David Mason: Some of the like direct messages are not actually private so somebody running uh a master on node can read other people's uh what are some kind of times called private messages um they can see who's subscribing to what um so um but at the same time I think actually for a system that you know is existing today uh it really should kind of be about the graph um and it shouldn't you know trying to be returning to be uh 200 uh Twitter it should expose as much of the information the valuable and useful information uh of the graph that people are on uh to the end user and uh to to applications and so on so it's a really hard Balancing Act. ✪

David Mason: And I do. ✪

David Mason: Apologize for all the things. ✪

David Mason: It's very difficult to understand all this um uh but that's basically what I've been thinking about uh when trying to make a recommendation thank you. ✪

Juan Caballero: https://github.com/assemblee-virtuelle/activitypods ✪

Juan Caballero: https://spritely.institute/ ✪

Juan Caballero: https://codeberg.org/helge/bovine ✪

Brent Shambaugh: Yeah Demetri I I was actually interested in search of how you can have people who don't want to be found and maybe activity Club got in there and people that do want to be found in the same space. ✪

Juan Caballero: https://microformats.org/wiki/rel-me ✪

Bob Wyman: I was. ✪

Bob Wyman: But the thing. ✪

Bob Wyman: Needing to pay somebody um. ✪

Bob Wyman: I I I I think at the credentials were group will back me up on this there are many ways to verifiable credentials without having to pay anybody. ✪

Bob Wyman: Right right but that's a verifiable state credential. ✪

Bob Wyman: Right right we should. ✪

Bob Wyman: Right we shouldn't go in the in great depth on this the important point is that yes some verifiable credentials are the require money or great amount of effort to get them but not all do so we can still use verifiable credentials even if people don't have the aren't using the kinds that you have to pay money for. ✪