<ildiko_mazar> Hello everyone, welcome to today's Verifiable Credentials for Education task force call. Let's start with the usual IP Note: Anyone can participate in these calls. However, all substantive contributors to any CCG Work Items must be members of the CCG with full IPR agreements signed. Please note that these meetings are recorded. We have a robot transcriber and we also do an audio and a video recording. If you want to speak, please raise your hand, or type “q+” in the chat to add yourself to the queue.
<ildiko_mazar> If we have any new people in the call, or somebody who would like to reintroduce themselves, please feel free to take the floor. If nobody wants to take the floor, we can move on to the main agenda topic, that are Projects supporting LERs for learners and employers.
Our Robot Overlords are scribing.
Lucy Yang: Hi so sorry now everyone can hear me. ✪
Lucy Yang: Okay okay great so I I'm I'm I'm I'm starting sharing my screen because I have actually have a slide where where I I talked about myself so it's uh so first thanks uh thanks for uh VCU for for having me um to to do this presentation particularly on trust registry it's probably those of you who who are we are know like my topic today is like a I want to start a conversation about where are we at with standardized trust registry so before I get there let me introduce myself first um today I'm doing it as 1 of the community members but just give you an idea like some of the the the multiple hats like I and some of the hats and I'm wearing um first like I I work with Kalia the identity women so we have a consulting firm so I'm the I'm the I'm the managing partner for the firm um and so that's like what where we do a lot of like a lot of like decentralized identity um um Consulting inter in in business strategy in standards development as well technical implementation and the ecosystem building. ✪
Lucy Yang: Very relevant to the to the identity work is I'm also a business consultant at United Nations development program which actually is doing the project the trust registry project I'm I'm going to speak to a lot today um. ✪
Lucy Yang: Like I'm not I'm not a technical technical person I call myself a technology VCS proudly um but I am an entrepreneur in the business strategist um my special. ✪
Lucy Yang: Crafting and implementing go-to Market strategy you know not only for identity product but but I have a particular kind of a passion for emerging technology that's also part of the reason why I got into the space about 5 years ago so I can't believe it's 5 years but and but it has been a quite a good journey and my journey actually um started um kind of a little bit before Co but I would call like Co pretty much kind of like a really um. ✪
Lucy Yang: Professional Journey changing experience for me um so some of you may might know me from like back in the co days where I was leading the co financials initiative and was clear and and also another technical colleague of ours John who's actually I'm working very actively today on trust registry work so the 3 of us we kind of collect Co credentials initiative into the Linux foundation and and also that's where we kind of like identify like the the kind of the the trust registry kind of challenge among the co and the co ecosystem and and and initiated the project called Global Co certificate Network so this is actually 1 of the first and decently Federated in infrastructures for trustworthy it's like where we leverage um the trending project which I'm going to speak to you a little bit more in depth um and and so that the the gccm project um we took it um to uh to United Nations in 2022 and now it's renamed to ready trust project and I'm still like working Consulting like as independent consultant there so in and what our use case now. ✪
Lucy Yang: On house certificate and we're working uh we can't we need to kind of address interoperability for them and that's um work is particularly with NWO. ✪
Lucy Yang: Yes like I I you know we call also 1 of our first um projects that consulting firm we call also getting started with software identity and a lot of like kind of so that's that I think that's why also I'm here because like this I know this community is focusing on like credentials and communities but actually the trustworthy work we are going to speak to. ✪
Lucy Yang: Broadly than just credentials but anyway so like this is me like I I'm going to talk about trust registry particularly from kind of a business person like someone who actually having challenges understanding all the Technologies you know out there and also having challenges communicate that to like stakeholders who are you know who who are kind of struggling with you know a particular industry problem where ecosystem Pro ecosystem problem and also who is like oh which which Technologies I am I I want to invest in where I should invest in so so with that um. ✪
Lucy Yang: Uh so sorry just to uh just to clarify are we doing questions there at the end what is the preferred kind of way of um for for this community I'm happy to to to to you know either way. ✪
Lucy Yang: I I can't see it actually when I'm on presenting a mode. ✪
Lucy Yang: Yes yes feel free to interrupt me because I can't see yeah I can't see anything I think if the question is very relevant what is probably the best answer at the you know like while I'm you know before I move to the next kind of slides or topic and that's probably the best I don't I don't mind to be interrupted I just want to tell you I don't I can't see the chat so if you don't ya interrupt me if uh if you have to. ✪
Lucy Yang: Okay great so yes I want to start like with really kind of what what do I mean by trust registry and particularly highlighting um what what I mentioned earlier when when I talk about trust registry today I don't particularly mean 1 that has to to be um issuing or verifying verifying credentials and I I started to work in the space but then you know as you know the pro my project and also my understanding of of like trust registry or trustless in kind of pro you know improve where like in like events over time I realized you know what what I've been working on actually has a lot you know more implications Beyond credentials and that's also not something I learned from many others that who are working on trust registry so so yeah when I'm talking about trust registry and the example I'm going to give is still a lot of them are are still in the credential in space which I know is very relevant to to this and to this group of people but just in general like you know the the work you know a registry of authorized parties that can participate in. ✪
Lucy Yang: Kind of more so Electronics transactions within an ecosystem based on the government of the ecosystem this is like kind of a kind of like my own kind of like um definition like based on some of the the the the other definitions I saw but it definitely want to highlight you know you don't have to be you know issuing credentials to to. ✪
Lucy Yang: To need a a trust registry where to need interoperability among different trust Registries across different ecosystems. ✪
Lucy Yang: Okay so so in my in my kind of um topic today I have a word before trustworthy issue like what you know standardized trust Registries um so why why why why standardized why we need some kind of standardization so that's um so I'm using um I'm using a a graphic um from the good House pass interoperability blueprint that's something that um was was uh developed while I was working on Co credentials this is actually this graphic is really kind of inspired it's inspired me in clear like our work at Ko credentials and this initiative to really think about oh trust registry interoperability and so that's why like if you're if you're looking at if you're looking at the kind of this is really kind of abstraction of what is going on in the world there's so many different kind of trust registry out there and trusted registries you know each you know each trust registry has probably have their own kind of specific you know technical and specifications of following and different policies that are following so if there's not some. ✪
Lucy Yang: Sure these watch trust registry is how can we engage you know ask me as human we're as you know how if we if you have your own ecosystem how you're able to engage the growing number of trust Registries out there each of them have their own kind of way of of working and a more specific example I can give you know I I I'm sorry you know why we're talking about Koh again but I just you know this is like this is something I have a lot of a lot of experience also this is something that I still inspiring a lot of my work today just really thinking about how chaotic that world is that world world was so this is a kind of like um example I can give like you know with our experience like in 2021 be right before we we started the the the trust registry work is really like you're looking at how many how many kind of like the different ecosystem like so so if you're looking at the list I have here the 1 I have like a why like it means like yes means yes like they are they have their own kind of trust registry they have their own way of doing trust list if I have an end like no behind like it mean. ✪
Lucy Yang: You work and Implement with our own ways of of doing trust registry so this is like I'm only giving you some kind of major you know kind of major ecosystem or major kind of like um tech technical standards that are being that were being implemented in you know in 2021 for for Co credentials and that that world is is really is really messy and there's so many others like smaller smaller ones that I haven't even got to listed there and then the challenge is really if you're looking at like the simple picture we have their we hope that you know no matter where you're coming from like which ecosystem your credential was part of it could be verified whether it's a yes or no it could be verified like when you're going to somewhere else so that's it's the same idea if we're talking about educational credentials for example like I live in Canada now but I got like I got a lot of my educational you know credentials when I was back in China right I want I have to 1 you know a lot of like. ✪
Lucy Yang: For for grad school and in Canada I literally have to go to like my you know my my University and also my first grad school was really kind of got all these kind of educational credentials kind of. ✪
Lucy Yang: With certified by you know I I don't I mean it's mainly have a stamp from the school and and there and have to I'm still carrying a lot of these um the envelopes like that that I couldn't even open if I'm going to do another degree you know down the road they probably have to kind of use 1 of the those envelopes and go to you know and submit it to the school and applying for right this is pretty much I I went you know in educational space it's pretty much the same how I can someone from China. ✪
Lucy Yang: Another country like my credentials can be easily verified like my educational credentials can be easily verified so it's the same it's kind of the same problem you can see across different different domains. ✪
Lucy Yang: So that was the challenge we're having and then we asked ourselves the questions of like you know what are some of the you know potential ways what also what are some of the you know um what is some of the uh the the approaches people were already taking that at the point of time so 1 thing like we saw a lot is really countries are doing better exchanges it really you know you know pretty much each country have to whether they have to work with it you know was existing ecosystem where we have to kind of like really doing you know country by country we didn't see a large kind of like ecosystem like you know for Co credentials in Asia Pacific so I know a lot a lot of Asian you know Pacific countries they really have to gather keys from like you know so many different different parties so that that is a lot of work that is really a lot and it's not only just like technical just understanding technical um Center but also kind of deep at the Diplomatic level a lot of you know policy agreement also really that kind of like discussions are happening you need needed to happen or what happening at the point in time it's really time consuming and also it's you know what especially when you're actually just really getting getting information. ✪
Lucy Yang: Happens once you know someone updated their their information you know up to their keys and stuff that's this is all that that that was not a sustainable way of of. ✪
Lucy Yang: Of of doing things and then like another kind of model is like okay is it possible that you know we can have kind of a giant centralization of things like and everyone kind of is in 1 day basis where like the keys are there you know the metadata there like all the revocation and business rules all the kind of relevant data is in that 1 place and then as a matter of like whoever you is accessing using that service as they have to do what they had to kind of pretty much like Download You Know download everything and all download everything to their own own thing but but if you're thinking about like Co you know Co where even like you're thinking about like in education spaces right it's not just like. ✪
Lucy Yang: A limited where a defined number of of parties were actually issuing so you there's actually a growing number going growing number of entities were actually issuing credentials like even like in educational space you have universities right and you also probably have those online platforms so like if you have a growing kind of like um. ✪
Lucy Yang: Kind of a list of of like issuing ecosystem or a growing list of of ecosystem how you're able to have a centralized services like and all especially for someone who's verifying actually downloading everything into their when they don't into their own like back-end server without knowing who you know they want to deal with who they don't want to deal with that's actually a lot and also even uh also if you think about like the different kind of natures of ecosystem whether it's co you know where is educational ecosystem is like how how having 1 Central Federation service what roles are you going to put in place that everyone can follow the same roles is it it is is really hard so these kind of like are are some of the models like we already did like before. ✪
Lucy Yang: What what what could be you know what could be a better better solution. ✪
Lucy Yang: Um so so 1 of the 1 of the takeaways like we we had while we're really kind of um. ✪
Lucy Yang: Getting the space of different um Co ecosystems there's that kind of 2 2 um kind of like problem like 2 kind of like problem space that we're like oh this is something that is not being properly addressed we're like very very lack of efforts um so that that first 1 is discoverability and second 1 we call Trust interoperability what what do I mean by trust discoverability is is really who is out there right because it really is no so 1 of 1 of the work um I remember clearly and I were doing at CCS which is really helping you know and and helping governments and Industry understand who is actually issuing right who is actually you know where this you know. ✪
Lucy Yang: And words credentials are all coming from because they're you know keep like keep new entities keep showing up and issuing right where where how how can we discover something so that's 1 1 challenge another thing is like trust right with all these um kind of ecosystem emerging big and small like you know government fund or private sector run. ✪
Lucy Yang: How we're able to kind of build trust because you know and that you know for for for at Ko time because it's kind of emergency situation so you know so those there's like kind of lack of really kind of there's a protocol that everyone is even lack of time to figure out what of the would be the protocol and a lot of time it's just really like okay let's get the keys and let's get the you know C to verify you know as long as we can access public keys but but this this this is something because we are dealing with this emergency situation and it's not there's no no policies like if you're looking at the government um government you know run ecosystem they're definitely policies that you know they have to have in place and the government had evaluate but it got it got quite chaotic right how someone can learn how 1 E system can learn enough about another ecosystem kind of like policies and governance to be able to comfortably say okay we are okay accepting that credential and even also keeping up to date of who is out there and also how the policies have changed over time it's really a really difficult I'm not not not that you know. ✪
Lucy Yang: And it can interoperability or not are not important and like semantic interoperability pretty much is the end goal is like you know 1 eosinophils. ✪
Lucy Yang: I have no idea how these kind of things are being you know vetted are how the clinic clinics are being vetted right and also if 1 Clinic has actually updated information and stuff how these things are. ✪
Lucy Yang: You know are are they updated in a timely manner and also when I'm clicking a link but I don't know whether whether there's kind of like you know. ✪
Lucy Yang: Security you know in place where I I'm sure that I'll be directed to a new you know to a page that I think is the clinics there's a lot of information you know a lot of the kind of challenges was like the way we're presenting information these days but I mean you know some of the stuff probably is fine but some of the use cases were higher level Insurance are needed you know we we want like kind of a more a better model like to build more trusted and secure um Yellow Pages so that's kind of like how if you're trying to simplify you know what what what what we're hoping to find like what kind of solution we're trying to find. ✪
Lucy Yang: So then we so so when when we realized that you know the kind of the problem space like what we want to get into um. ✪
Lucy Yang: You know our you know our tech tech tech person or Tech Team like John he actually went out there and really doing research regarding of what are already like existing technology out there that's when he found train um for those of you who trained is as as developed as part of the EU as of lab um project and by a German in German German Research Institute called fronhofer so I have a I missed a space here but anyways so it it initially came actually the the prior work to train is there's a project called light test project you know as his name suggests I mean I'm going to read it out loud it's lightweight infrastructure for Global heterogeneous trust Management in support of an open ecosystem stakeholders and Trust schemes it's a long name but I you know it's it's pretty kind of self-explanatory like what kind what problem they're trying to solve and train is kind of like um a evolvement and also continuation of that that project and the goal like training is is training is really enable secure and trustable digital interactions and and it's. ✪
Lucy Yang: Rocked a call like we're conventional xca you know type of structure so also like they they try by leveraging like existing internet infrastructure or DNS DNS sacks that also try and kind of to you know to prevent fraud fraud and in you know to the best extent possible so what we call like a training approach is decentralized Federation which I'll explain it later what we mean like by decentralized Federation for the publication Discovery and inquiring of trust information so these are some of the. ✪
Lucy Yang: Tracking the cost certificate project we're working on today so first it provides agnostic support for all types of would of trust architecture whether you're using you know x509 where you know did you know it doesn't really matter to us we can support all of that and. ✪
Lucy Yang: Like I listed some of the very very um core kind of functionalities that um that you know because of these functionalities we chose to use train for for at least for for solving our our Co problem at the point of time um and also the same is we're still building trained for for the for the W project. ✪
Lucy Yang: What I talked about earlier is if your ecosystem you can have your own policies right we we don't want to be like oh you know everyone has to follow the same because that's also not realistic and third is really design you know we support and it's kind of like the relevant the same kind of similar to the second point that we're naming a few some of a few established were emerging trust schemes like AI does like Pine Canadian trust framework you know tap tapa. ✪
Lucy Yang: And for training itself adopts so so trained so we're talking about like training is used is used for Federate federating trust registry is but actually you know if you you can you can you can also use it if you if someone comes like okay we want a trust registry ourself and also we have a need for a federating trust trust registry is within our ecosystem more like across from with other ecosystem that um that you can also like use train to build your trust list but train particularly you know do a pattern from Etsy that's Etsy trusted list actually today when I just spoke with the train team prior to this call they're they're actually they've have um come up with new kind of patterns for for their own kind of trust list but anyway so that's you know there's but if you're using train definitely you know and also asked these standards aligned with you that's that will be a you know very easy for you to to implement and as you trust list as part of the training framework and as mentioned they're using like DNS sack to secure the chain of authentic authenticity and and lastly and they also have like at least they have like started kind of like AP. ✪
Lucy Yang: Verify our app just really for Discovery and verification of trusted endpoints the point for the for the for the verifier is just really how you know how can it verify can can integrate with different kind of trust Registries to be able to kind of. ✪
Lucy Yang: Integrated with different kind of trust registry out there so so what what you're using trained for federations like the um you know it it infrastructure can speak with different kind of trust Registries for interoperability and also for some automating some of the tasks rather than just you know doing kind of manually investigation um so so this is kind of like the core core things like we we look at and in training provided that's reason why like we we chose training for and also to be honest like we still today I still haven't find anything else that I actually do that you know that Federation at that level and also in a decentralized way. ✪
Lucy Yang: Highlight especially as a business person why and I'm not only just business person also our Tech our Tech team is really kind of like you know pointed out the fact that training is a very it's a high like from hers is highly reputable like research and Engineering works in the nation like we really like that that and also we can see how the team has really kind of really driven to solve real world problems but also like doing really rigorous research and development to be able to to make sure they're actually developing technologies that can solve problems and also based on sound kind of. ✪
Lucy Yang: Work right it's not like you know you you you just come up with something and then you just develop its really they've done their research and and also like when we're working with them is really they can they can see how thoughtful they are in terms of like thinking through some of the real world uh scenarios um and second like um we really like that they they leverage as well established and well adopted internet infrastructure and also with a the thing was a DNS and DNS sack is not is not we're not all not the only person who are building on it right it's really they're a huge community of stakeholders and Implement implementers working diligently to improve it because you know we we keep seeing that there are some some security challenges with DNS DNS that and we know that there's a it's not only us there's actually a lot of people are working on some of the commonly recognized challenges with these in existing infrastructure and and thirdly um so it is a open source project and building on existing Open Standards if not if I'm not wrong probably 80% of like train is like based on Open Standards and also wherever there's need like the the the team at front Huffer also. ✪
Lucy Yang: The things that and you know because our necessarily being further standard because like it's not like you have to do everything everything stand around because some of the stuff probably is not doesn't make sense really really standardized but like the team that team is really really dedicated to really identifying pieces 1 1 of the things that I think like they're leading on they're leading is a WCC like verifier Ensure. ✪
Lucy Yang: Oh my God that's what what what 1 of like how how you can actually give um uh a verifier issue on the trust registry credential so they can prove that they are they are they are on a transportation that's something that they are working to standardize at wsbc so this is kind of an additional piece they've identified from their their their work to to to know that they actually did that kind of standardization makes sense we like that approach and also like a lot of like the partners we work with especially someone that who they really really want Open Standards and also they want established standards so these kind of factors like we like about um working on training um then I'm going to dive a little bit more into like what what um. ✪
Lucy Yang: Is um so you're looking at the the chart and I also if you're thinking about like the earlier kind of like 2 kind of approaches we thought about 1 is like the bilateral exchanges and another 1 is like the the fully kind of centralized service centralized Federation service what happened that like you know if when we're using train is so all these ecosystem they they they you know they exist but we don't kind of trying to move everything they have like into into a giant platform where we're trying to do is we're we're actually giving them a tool to create a profile so the create a profile and I'll show that what that profile means so what actually if you're using. ✪
Lucy Yang: What is when you're looking at a yellow page we have different profiles from different ecosystem and that profile includes information that you know we we believe what we work with and stakeholders to kind of Define a list of information that we need to see from ecosystem to be for them to be able to. ✪
Lucy Yang: Evaluate by another by by verifiers but what about other ecosystem whether this ecosystem is trusted and then. ✪
Lucy Yang: And then and then if for example if a verifier like say in the code example a country verifier but they can decide okay among all these you know based on the profiles and also the and the informations like it you know because and the information is provided through the profiles what who who are like the parties we want to trust and and and they end up only having to getting information we're downloading the keys and into their backs over the the parties they they they can trust and also like the the kind of the downloading the data part also facilitates it through through like the the platform but at the end of the day they're actually the platform itself like enabled by training doesn't hold you know we don't have public you know we don't have need you know to have public key data where we don't have to have like all where you know all the governance data all the the metadata stuff like you know we we are hosting metadata but we're not actually hosting the actual data from the ecosystem um. ✪
Lucy Yang: Um so on on the on the left like it's it's really it's those are kind of a fake information like we're just like created as like just like strong um uh like uh for you to kind of to for for demonstration purposes but if you're looking at the left and the network entry so like that's kind of the Yellow Page we're talking about you you're going to have like um and the profiles like you look at whose profile are actually on on a on a train enabled platform and then when you click into it so that's on on the right like the picture pretty much shows like these you know. ✪
Lucy Yang: Who who is it like Ministry of Health and Welfare support so this is what's the what's the Dutch Ministry we worked out an example actually that the link and we had there is actually a real links um in a way it's like we so we we we defined a lot of information we would need uh from um from from uh an ecosystem so like the the Dutch Ministry provided like you know their their name and also all these like links are actually pointing to the information provided by them and the idea is like we're we're we're only having the metadata on the platform and then like you know the. ✪
Lucy Yang: And so whether like some of the some of the links are actually pointing to to your probably a static information page some of the information pointing to a key directly so what what you know we're we are doing is really if for example if there's a key it's pointing to a key will enable like our system will enable like the the verifiers to actually get the key from from the the Ministry of Health house W welfare and support so they're able to kind of verify um a certificate from from from this ministry so this is kind of just give you an idea like we're not actually housing those data um but we're actually having like the metadata like the the profile of this particular ecosystem and also facilitate kind of the data exchanges through the platform without having to host everything and and the idea of using um using like DNS and DNS sack this is. ✪
Lucy Yang: Very kind of high level if so each each 1 of the participants actually they're not so they have their own so they have we assume that you know everyone already have their like you know a donate domain. ✪
Lucy Yang: Well it's pretty much they have a zone that they created I'm not technical I'm trying to use the use the right language here but they actually each 1 of them they have a zone that actually they host on all the data and and then they have they create a profile on on the train enabled platform and then that's how like so each time like we're actually we're not we're dealing like the the the decentralized uh decentralized decentralized Federated platform is just really kind of presenting presenting that metadata and also directing you know people to the to you know through the link in your eyes to to the right information they would need to investigate further some of that still have to be done kind of more like manually just looking through things for example like the governance policies but some of the technical stuff we can definitely actually build Integrations already um and when I mean when when there so what we're ALS guarantee is when someone is publishing on the on on on a training platform is is the is actually there's their information signed so pretty much like through like DNS stack they can actually sign. ✪
Lucy Yang: It's actually like coming from it's it's actually going to that URL like we're not you know like pretty much like anti-spoofing like that's that's 1 of the things like um like DNS and DNS Sac provides um and another another thing I want to kind of highlight we're not for us like we don't because we're technology providers we don't do the governance part of it um but the the idea of using like when we we are actually working on a governance kind of guidance for whoever implementing it is really at the end of the day how how the the vetting is done to be for someone to be able to be part of a yellow page or to be part of a a like a higher level directory this is something defined by governance and also another thing that I think I mentioned earlier is what information like where so that actually whoever is running kind of like the essentially Federated platform they their job is not to tell people like oh you have to follow this particular policy of issuing education credentials work over credentials but what they have to Define is what a what set of metadata like information. ✪
Lucy Yang: Used to provide in order to be for them to be able to to participate in the platform so pretty much that is like this 1 is like the party provides that information or ecosystem provides that set of information then the other ecosystem can really see okay. ✪
Lucy Yang: Have have enough information to evaluate whether that you know ecosystem is trusted can be trusted or not. ✪
Lucy Yang: So this is like a little bit more technical how like the DNS um. ✪
Lucy Yang: Like how we're using DNS and DN you know how like the the you know the publishing ecosystem leverage you know have their own DNS Zone and how they're used you know this is this is a little bit more technical but if anyone want to dig into it I'm I'm happy to try my best to explain it but the idea is just really is is if you're looking at the the um the the gray box is really this is like the the the kind of like example of a Federated directory of all like the the listing uh ecosystems and each when when you create your clicking into like each. ✪
Lucy Yang: And each ecosystem behind there's actually a you know there's something they're doing on their DNS Zone and then also some of some of the ecosystem we're hosting they have their own trust list right so for example if we're for example if you think about um the the EU coic certificates is a part of the listing listed ecosystem then they actually they have a trust list themselves that we you know that they are managing and really depends on whether someone want to use and train and as um as as um as to further trust registry they don't have to like I said they can use whatever trust registry we have but then as a matter of whether like train can further investigate into uh you know a secondary or like a second layer trust trust registry so we're working on we're working on really kind of looking at what are the major trustworthy protocols for standards out there so we can integrate further with that um but this is still work in progress. ✪
Lucy Yang: So lastly I mean I already you know I I hope that I have like provide enough Clarity for for you to ask more questions just want to give you an idea when we say like there's why there are so many things like to kind of wrap my head around is so train is like train is really a standard based open source framework to both you can both trust registry and you know using like that follows like the Etsy standards and also the most important and functionality for train just really decently Federate any type of trust Registries and but what kind of like trustworthy we're looking at their where we're looking we're looking at out there so like we have like the conventional CA that's you know trustless that's like standard based and that we have like the trust SC trust trusted list that's also standards as open standard and 1 of the you know kind of recent 1 kind of emerging and open ID Federation this is something I I I'm planning to kind of dig into a little bit more so this is also standardized and it kind of quite a new thing that came out of diff it's called credential trust establishment I don't understand enough but I feel like this is more kind of a did based um so these kind of like the the standards I mean I would love to. ✪
Lucy Yang: Like I understand a little bit more particularly like the open ID Federation and diff the 1 came out of death there are also some kind of Open Source where partially open source project that are you know they're not necessarily kind of standard standard standard base but but there at least you know they they're major ones like that you know the apps the apps you trust chains blockchain 1 because that's widely used in Latin America and somewhere registry is came came out of India I I believe they're also like more more widely adopted Beyond India and in another 1 I just um like our our front Huffer. ✪
Lucy Yang: Told me that the guy asks trust registry I mean they they are working with um like from her like in this you know implementing trained within guy act but also the guy act itself has their own kind of way of doing trust registry so that that's a new thing I have to dig into. ✪
Lucy Yang: And then another some related stuff not necessarily you can use to build trust registry but actually very very related of 1 is this w3c verifiable issuer and verifiers this is the 1ha and a bunch of others trying to Define at w3c and then there's a trustful IP trustworthy like version 2 um so the trust and this 1 I I might if I understand correctly so they're trying to Define um the way a bridge between um. ✪
Lucy Yang: Between trust Registries and and verifiers because you know because there are so many different trust Registries out there so how how how can you you know trying to standardize how a verifier will you know like. ✪
Lucy Yang: Interact and kind of have a standardized way for verifiers to engage with different trust Registries is what they're trying to do for the version 2 which I think makes sense and another 1 actually I worked on like early on when when and during Co with SEO is like a trustless specification where it really you know how how to get you know uh convert or you know use the word convert the X 509 into kind of a dit and based on documents so that's the all these are kind of things I I I I I want you know I'm I've tried to follow and also try to understand more and there's actually a lot more I haven't listed here that's the reason why I'm like you know this is the only a starter of a conversation hopefully and. ✪
Lucy Yang: To action so if anyone I mean my company like that's my um consulting company we are looking for sponsorship to Sporter to support our research in this area um so if you're interested and see what kind of like sponsorship uh sponsorship project we did like I have a link to the website there and also Whoever has actually a business when I say business case I don't mean like you know like really profit making case it's really business means like case that actually can create value right because if you ask me like what what are use cases I can really sit here and talk about use cases for the rest of the day but I want to identify you know like the cases where actually we can start creating value today they're actually a real need out there so that's kind of what I mean by business cases um so like we're yeah we're looking for partners like when I say we I mean like what it could be our our consulting firm also could be like part of my work at at the UN I don't know it really depending on where things are online a lot of work I'm I'm doing at the UN are more kind of government related um but you know I I me as a person trying to solve real world problems I'm not I'm a use case where I'm. ✪
Lucy Yang: At the end of my presentation I'll share the link and and the email uh the link to the slide so if you know so you can have access to that. ✪
Lucy Yang: I I feel like education education space is actually 1 of the most active I mean probably I'm engaged with education space quite a lot but I I feel it's 1 of the most active and space but not necessarily um big initiatives um the reason why I'm saying this is when it comes down to really kind of business cases really what what are going to bring immediate like a work short-term mid-term value to someone who is going to take the lead on it right so what I see happening is really a particular country looking at where where there's you know where their people are going you know where their people are are immigrating to right and and also where where they have um kind of incoming kind of students from you know which countries which countries are having incoming students it's really identifying those countries that you know have a strategic value sorry have a strategic value for them so I do see a lot of conversation happening kind of among the few countries. ✪
Lucy Yang: I know there are have been quite some initiative in Canada or at least conversations I don't know actually there's actually you know tangible initiative but at least um uh action you know conversations like with other countries to really see how you know. ✪
Lucy Yang: Faster faster um kind of verification of educational credentials to bring like immigrants um. ✪
Lucy Yang: And and also like International students like you know for for international student programs right that kind of thing um. ✪
Lucy Yang: And also I my understanding is is also some existing kind of infrastructures like you know trust Registries I wouldn't call it trust registry I I don't understand enough of how some of the existing Registries are being done in in education space and that's the reason why I would love to kind of actually work on a particular case so I understand that existing infrastructure because the at least the work I do I hope that we're not we're not trying to kind of like create a completely new thing and for for the education space it's really what already can be leveraged and and how can we you know use like new tooling to enable enable kind of. ✪
Lucy Yang: That's and you know quite you know in in a relatively you know short term and but also with a kind of long-term view in place I hope I answer and answer your question I don't think there are any particular kind of standard or kind of stopped at least I'm not aware of and which is probably a good thing I think I really like how how like you guys have actually a task for a particularly on focusing on credentials because the challenge I have is is really there's so many new things that come up right whether whether whether like a new initiative have evaluated the other in existing options out there that's a question mark for me and also that's part reason why we you know we as company want to do more research and communicate better about what are already there what problems they're they're solving so when it comes to actually a particular use case whether it is like you know education or Healthcare people have at least have a better starting point for them to evaluate what what they can use. ✪
<kerri_lemoie> @lucy - DCC & Credential Engine is kicking off an edu/workforce registry research project next month. It will be an open public project.
Lucy Yang: Thanks Carrie I I would love to follow that work. ✪
Lucy Yang: But is that particularly about um registry and education space I mean we're you know when I say registry is mean they're already registry is that. ✪
Lucy Yang: Um in education space I was supposed to kind of like what we mean by trust registry so if you can clarify a little bit that's that would be great. ✪
Kerri Lemoie: Sure um so there aren't that many Registries and education yeah I mean there are some but they're not necessarily set up to work with verifiable credentials and there's a lot of governance that happens in education right um but we all of this hasn't really come together yet so This research project is about exploring this topic um in the context of learning and employment records. ✪
Kerri Lemoie: And um but so a lot of that is governance right and a lot of that is what are the needs of verifiers for specifically learning and employment records and then some of that of course is the technology and how all of this be hosted so there's a lot of intersection with the work you've been doing with this so I will definitely be in touch and this research project is going to be 1 year uh digital credential Consortium is doing it with uh credential engine but it's going to be an open public project because there's a lot of people who are interested in trust Registries in our space right now so um we're going to work on it together and ideally we'll do a lot what you you've been doing in the similar method where we'll produce something um a pilot registry for folks to try and and write up all of our understandings of the registry that are in place now in the world and and what is needed in this space so does that help. ✪
Lucy Yang: Yes that that's super helpful because I think what 1 thing you mentioned about governance so so when when when I'm a business person looking at what are the kind of like promising use cases I would love to work with those who already have existing governance because building governance from scratch is like. ✪
Lucy Yang: It's it's difficult right and also I think that the fact that you are looking into like the. ✪
Lucy Yang: Like you said like the probably the technology are not using are not for verifiable credentials yet. ✪
<ildiko_mazar> This is great @Kerri, please keep us posted about the project.
Lucy Yang: Into those you know existing kind of technology or system is important that's something I I I can't do or at least I I we're not prioritizing like if you ask me my my time and mostly spending on uh it's most spent on really looking at like the credential related work you know like the you know the the kind of registry I trust registry I presented right and and but not necessarily so in a particular space but where where I think things come together is like you have a much better understanding of like the education space where we you know we can actually help really help how we can bring those existing systems and Technologies you know kind of you know to like things that can work with verify for credentials all these emerging Technologies right so I think that's where and and also you understand governance better right when we work with Partners is really the partner actually have and have I understand the governance so we we we're we're making sure we're building technology kind of like leveraging the the existing governance to the the past extent possible so that's that's great great great to learn thank you for sharing. ✪
Kerri Lemoie: Yeah absolutely I think I mean we we have a lot to learn in terms of what verifiers are really looking for and we have we have some issuing happening in education and in Workforce with credentials but not a lot of verifying yet and we'd like to know and learn more about like that's a big question what do verifiers need when do they need it and we suspect there's probably going to be hundreds of Registries and education and Workforce because private government all sorts of people are interested in that space so it's a fascinating project actually so excited to I'll connect with you I'll drop you an email with talk to some more. ✪
Lucy Yang: Thank you very much I think like what you I mean another very very good point you brought up on the verifier side because what I'm nervous about these days is is is also the verifier side I I I I feel fairly um confident about the the the kind of decentralized federation approach but not necessarily so in terms of at the user experience level I'm like I have I mean we've done some um some um PC and part like pilot projects where we can you know demonstrate like the verifier app can you know you know have the entire end to end but but still there are a lot you know for for verifier to digest to be able to because we work with someone who is fairly familiar with our approach we're really kind of how to you know give the verifier who has nothing you know no nothing about you know our space and really that kind of experience that they don't even have to know like what what is you know whether it's Central or decentralized you know Federation that's something I I I'm nervous about but yeah but that's a very good point thank you very much what I hope that you know as we we you know work further on this we can also share a bit more on like what on the the expedition. ✪
<deb_everhart_(credential_engine)> sorry I missed a few min- I'll catch up via transcirption
Dmitri Zagidulin: Works okay excellent that just seems to work. ✪
<deb_everhart_(credential_engine)> very helpful presentation, thank you!
Dmitri Zagidulin: Um yeah I just wanted to say Lucy thank you so much for this presentation this is really helpful I I totally agree with you that really the notion of trust Registries is like 1 it's like an iceberg right I think we're a lot of people who encounter it don't realize just how much is is under the surface of it just how much work we all have to do organizationally technologically governance wise and all that stuff. ✪
Dmitri Zagidulin: And absolutely agree with you that um. ✪
Dmitri Zagidulin: Critical for issuers it is also critical uh for verifiers and in addition the the other sort of angle that I think our communities just starting to really uh wrestle with is hey what about self issued credentials right how how do we tie it into. ✪
Dmitri Zagidulin: Of this kind of infrastructure uh for self issued and and endorsements and all that stuff so really great topic thank you so much for speaking on it uh that's it. ✪
Dmitri Zagidulin: Go ahead Laura if you're speaking you're muted. ✪
Laura_Paglione: Sorry it's uh happened uh allowed my browser to um do this in a while sorry about that um I do a lot of work with the research and education uh identity Registries like in common um and actually the global network of of those so um they have been starting the process of talking a lot about uh decentralized identity and how uh the trust Registries that they've built um specifically in research and education are going to match with the decentralized world so um I think there's a lot there's a that Community is right for conversation right now um and I'm happy to make an introductions if that's helpful. ✪
Lucy Yang: Yes thank you very much Laura yeah I would love to learn more about uh the work they've been doing. ✪
Dmitri Zagidulin: Quick to follow follow on question to Laura so uh do you have do you have any insight into the uh sort of where the state of things are in the in common educ gain. ✪
Dmitri Zagidulin: Sort of area so we we've had the initial conversations with um within common uh through through through Nicole Roy. ✪
Dmitri Zagidulin: Who who gave a presentation at the uh Chicago uh conference earlier this year. ✪
Dmitri Zagidulin: Uh in common mentioned that they might be interested in serving as a uh sort of pilot trust registry but do you have any more insight into where those conversations are at now. ✪
Laura_Paglione: So is that a question for me for Laura. ✪
Laura_Paglione: Um so I know that in common has just done um a new strategic plan and they're in the process of um planning how they're going to execute it and this is 1 of the topics that are there and um so I imagine that the conversations that they'll be seeking are going to increase over the next several months and actually Lucy just a heads up I I just sent her name over to the program committee for a conference that's coming up in December um as a potential keynote speaker so if you hear from them that's my fault. ✪
Lucy Yang: Oh I have a note so I I will be at DC and DC next week for the DHS Silicon Valley demo week Pro you know event if anyone is in DCF happy to where are they but I'm happy to meet up. ✪
Dmitri Zagidulin: Yeah it's going to be exciting um hope hopefully we can get somebody from the cohort to come and. ✪
Dmitri Zagidulin: Uh present on um on what they've learned in DC. ✪
Sheela_Kiiskila: With the note that I might like sounds stupid but I'll bring it out anyway. ✪
Sheela_Kiiskila: Talking about uh trust Registries there are different types and levels of trust registry that can happen I'm more uh working on verifying the credentials in the education field. ✪
Sheela_Kiiskila: Actually I'm working in Europe so I'm in Finland and working with the European alliances and so what I noticed is uh when we want to issue uh the digital credentials are verifiable credentials there are certain trust Industries we can already use today like they say uh database of uh Dakar uh database of European quality assurance registry. ✪
Sheela_Kiiskila: So every University within Europe um every 2 years or so they do internal assessment and uh uh you know give the assessment to the other European wide and if it gets accepted it means that they are at the European level of quality assurance. ✪
Sheela_Kiiskila: Credential that we issue we try to put a eqf level European qualification framework. ✪
Sheela_Kiiskila: When when a credential comes and it says eqf level 7 which means we know that the credential or the course they took is at a master's level. ✪
Sheela_Kiiskila: Registries that can be used in education at within Europe context and I know when we expanded to the world and we want the credentials from Europe to be accepted in us then we need trusted Registries where this is trusted over there and all that but I was wondering if that's the type of trust registries you are talking about or. ✪
Lucy Yang: I'll just quickly respond I think Sheila you brought up a very very good example because like the the what when I was responding to Kerry's our comment is really I I I don't understand enough what are the existing Registries that are in place but the registry you talked about I believe when they initially build it and they didn't think about the world has come can come to the you know point where today right they were not built for kind of technically interrupt but also governance wise interrupt across the world but I think the perfectly great you know a perfectly fine you're using within Europe but like you said when the actual there you know intellectual need to be verified across like economic or cause borders that's when the you know the challenge arrives right that's the problem we're trying to solve we're finding how how how we can bring these Registries in kind of at the level that they can actually understand and and in interrupt with each other in a meaningful way but yes do you give a very good example thank you. ✪
Sheela_Kiiskila: So it's mostly there needs to be more work on interoperability because there might be Registries already existing in different parts of the world interoperability is what is needed more than building the Registries or. ✪