Tom S: Thanks Harrison it's not really an intro I think this is my third call here I just had a question to the community um that is uh I'm very interested in the whole self Sovereign identity and its Concepts it's so vast so many organizations and many things are going around uh so as a non-coding person who doesn't know to quote how can I contribute in any way just wanted to get some advice on that that's it thanks. ✪

Tom S: Thank you I'll look into it. ✪

Dmitri Zagidulin: Hi everyone I'm a software engineer uh in the. ✪

Dmitri Zagidulin: The center as. ✪

Dmitri Zagidulin: Space uh so I I do a little bit of everything so I work on specifications I do Hands-On uh coding on some of the libraries. ✪

Dmitri Zagidulin: Create credentials that do signatures I work on wallets. ✪

Dmitri Zagidulin: Um and like I helped uh manage Dev teams and so on so I I'm personally super interested in bringing some of this Tech that we're working on in the ccg such as credentials wallets DS Access Control I'm interested in bringing that stuff to other areas like decentralized Social Web so I don't I don't know if any of you have come across things like masteron and blue sky and some of the Twitter and Facebook Alternatives there's a lot of interesting activity happening in that space right now uh using some of the tech that we've incubated here in this group so so I'm really uh similarly uh I I do some work in uh verify credentials in education. ✪

Dmitri Zagidulin: Again just just another vertical that finds stuff incubated here really useful so big fan of the group uh also I'll stay up there. ✪

Manu Sporny: Sure happy to um hi my name's Manos borney um I was 1 of the people that uh got together with some of the rest of you and created this group way back in 2014 almost uh a decade ago um. ✪

Manu Sporny: Uh I largely focus on kind of the specs and editing the specs um uh so verifiable credentials decentralized identifiers um along with the data Integrity stuff and render methods and and things of that nature um uh I also um am the CEO of a company called digital Bazaar uh we then take those kind of uh standards uh create products around them and uh deploy them into the market through organizations like uh US citizenship and immigration services in the United States and the state of California DMV um in the retail sector um uh through uh National Association of convenience stores and other retailers um so uh you know it's been wonderful to see the community grow over the years and um you know tackle new verticals like Dmitri was talking about um around. ✪

Manu Sporny: Uh social. ✪

Manu Sporny: And and that sort of thing um. ✪

Manu Sporny: Yeah 1 1 full to to uh be here and spend the time with the rest of you building something that I think is pretty important for Global Society. ✪

Manu Sporny: Yes I've got 1 um there is. ✪

Manu Sporny: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/cfrg/J4pdvxigpXiW7bUfCNeD92fgzng/ ✪

Manu Sporny: Sorry I totally did not raise my hand um there is a current thing happening at the internet engineering task force crypto form research group to adopt um uh some of the uh work that uh this group has been doing I'm going to put a link in to uh the chat channel uh this is around um BBS pseudonym so so you know privacy is really important to this group and we're trying to create these Global standards that enable someone to prove some aspect of themselves without oversharing uh data like proof that you live in a particular country but not share your home address or prove that you're employed by a particular organization but not express your name or your employee badge number or something like that um uh so there's BBS that allows us to do that and their pseudonyms um and blind BBS that um are up for we're trying to get the. ✪

Manu Sporny: To adopt it this. ✪

Manu Sporny: FRG the crypto form research group to adopt it and it's really important that people come forward and say hey these features are important to me uh this is why uh please you know adopt this work so there's a that we're trying to get a call for adoption to happen at CFR we need the community support in doing that if you go to that link and you well you have to sign up for the mailing list and then if you like respond and say hey I support the adoption of this that would really help us um get some of these more privacy preserving Technologies uh adopted that's it. ✪

Manu Sporny: Sorry I forgot um the other thing that's happening right now that um folks might not be aware of is there's a group of us um. ✪

Manu Sporny: Between the ccg and uh decentralized identity Foundation trust over IP Foundation Iota you know Foundation uh there there's a fairly large group of us getting together that are trying to standardize a few dead methods uh we are uh we had our first meeting uh I think last week uh I think the next I forget when the next meeting is um we'll try to send that out to the mailing list um but there was really good turnout the last time there were 35 people there all interested in standardizing dids if you're interested in being a part of that process um it's free to join you know uh you just show up uh share your opinion and and thoughts um we'll get the next uh meeting announcement out to the ccg but just wanted to make sure that people were aware that that was happening because it's probably going to move pretty quickly uh to select you know the features that we want in these dids that we intend to go and standardized at uh. ✪

Manu Sporny: Uh the worldwide Web Consortium is 1 of the target uh standards bodies. ✪

Manu Sporny: Yeah I can do a quick update um so uh we've been meeting regular we meet every uh Tuesday um uh at 3 pm Eastern we send the uh meeting agenda usually out to the mailing list um we have uh we we continue to kind of discuss BC API and how it's being used and and whatever from week to week um the work there of course has been delayed a pretty greatly because of all of the work in the VC to a working group we're trying to get those specs through the standardization process before we return our efforts to finishing up VC API uh however the number of implementations for VC API have climbed dramatically um over the last quarter right I mean we we just talked about this 3 months ago in 3 months we have 5 new implementations that use VC API bringing the number of implementations up to 16 which. ✪

Manu Sporny: That's great and it's like way more than we need to uh standardized at least the base form of VC API um so uh just as a reminder on what VC API is it it does kind of credential life cycle management uh including issuance verification presentation modifying the status of the credential like revoked or needs a a refresh that's a new thing we're going to be talking about um uh or suspended um. ✪

Manu Sporny: You can run uh o4 VCI and oid 4 VP over the VC API so 1 thing that people don't quite understand is like VC API kind of sits above on a layer above um oid 4 uh they're also VC workflows and exchanges um that is being used uh much more heavily in the retail space um for like retail based uh use cases um uh it is also used extensively in the can ibc.com website and the VC working group test Suite so everyone that is conformant to the VC test Suites are also to some degree conformant to the VC API especially like the issuance and verification part of that API um it is in production with California DMV and open cred which is being used by a number of California agencies uh to read the California. ✪

Manu Sporny: Initial driver. ✪

Manu Sporny: That's a verifiable credential format uh it's in production for uh true age um with you know 152,000 stores across the US um uh building towards integrating you know with true age that's been in production for about 2 and a half years at this point um. ✪

Manu Sporny: Most of the issues have resolutions we just need PRS to be written it's just slow going on those PRS um we do have um a proposal for a next uh iteration of the VC um. ✪

Manu Sporny: Uh working group that includes things that are being incubated in this group like render method and a confidence method and uh verifiable credential barcodes and verifiable credential Wireless and um uh and NVC API as well so we think that proposal is going to go out Q2 of 2025 um we're we're waiting on finishing up the vc20 work before we go on to kind of the the next uh things um. ✪

Manu Sporny: It for uh VC API. ✪

Manu Sporny: Yeah I can probably take this 1 I don't see Benjamin either. ✪

Manu Sporny: Um the uh the test Suites are you know what what what what they say they are they're the test Suites that we're building for the verifiable credential uh work there is a test suite for verifiable credential 20 uh ecdsa ecdsa SD which stands for Selective disclosure so that's like a selective disclosure mechanism that uses government supplied uh uh government proved cryptography uh there's BBS which lets you do on linkable disclosure uh there's eddsa that just uses the Edwards curve um uh uh and then um kind of a more Legacy 1 Ed 255519 signature 2020 which is the 1 that's deployed uh for the uh true age program across the us we also have uh test Suites for bitstring status list uh VC hosie cozy and VC Json schema um these test Suites uh help. ✪

Manu Sporny: Uh people understand whether or not their conformant to the specification um so to write something to the test Suite you there's a API that you follow you implement the API which is the VC API right now um and uh and then the test Suite will make a bunch of calls to your implementation and tell you whether or not you passed um the statements in the specification um. ✪

Manu Sporny: Could we jump to the next slide uh I think uh. ✪

Manu Sporny: That has uh implementation so since the last time we talked um all the green that you see there the pluses are the new implementations that we've gotten in the last 3 months so we have 4 4 new implementations for the verifiable credential data model 2 we've got 2 new implementations for ecdsa we've got 2 new implementations for PBS. ✪

Manu Sporny: 4 New implementations for eddsa um uh 2 more for for the kind of Legacy Edwards 20 2 uh 25519 signature 2020 and we lost an implementation I think uh someone just kind of like dropped out of the test Suite um uh for bittering status list we've got 2 new implementations as well uh VC cozy Hosey does not have any implementations that we know of right now and VC Json schema uh only had block as the implementation um uh and you know the future of that implementation is unknown uh because that business unit unfortunately had block was um it doesn't doesn't exist anymore um uh but overall we we we again have like way more implementations that we need to go to a a final uh standard at w3c the main thing we're waiting on right now. ✪

Manu Sporny: Uh a Security review uh and that Security Group just was just formed uh this week and so we expect that to happen over the next uh uh month or 2 that's it for test. ✪

Will Abramson: https://github.com/w3c/cg-reports ✪

Manu Sporny: Yes that is correct um and the online interface uh is on you it used to be on the community group page so you go to the community group you log in and okay okay so that's all that you need the the the the reason that you published in the CG reports uh place is so that there's a stable identifier um that's created for it and then you use the stable identifier when you publish through the ccg. ✪

Manu Sporny: Yeah yeah yeah yeah if you if you look at um let's see uh. ✪

Manu Sporny: Well yeah there's it it hosts them at some some URL let me let me try and see if I can. ✪

Manu Sporny: https://w3c.github.io/cg-reports/json-ld/CG-FINAL-yaml-ld-20231206/ ✪

Manu Sporny: Yeah so if if you look at like the you know Json LD final URL it's on a you know GitHub IO page. ✪

Manu Sporny: And so. ✪

Manu Sporny: Whatever directory and subdirectory you create that the subdirectory that you put on that URL w3c github.io CG reports slash and whatever directory you create. ✪

Manu Sporny: That's the that's the permanent URL um hosted at w3c. ✪

Manu Sporny: They they have they provide a tool that lets you change the WordPress site. ✪

Manu Sporny: Yep yeah it's it's like 1 of the chair tools yeah it's it's kind of buried in hidden but um yeah the chairs have the capability to update the WordPress site. ✪

Manu Sporny: Yep I can yep yep happy I can do the next couple I think um so the VC render method is a way for issuers to express how they want their credential to be rendered um on a web page in a digital wallet on a piece of paper um there's even a um we demoed a wireless render method so you can say how you want your uh your credential to be rendered in the electromagnetic spectrum like NFC Bluetooth that kind of thing um so there's this uh spec that uh we're working on uh Singapore uh government uh is also um uh helping uh as is Demitri um in Patrick St Louis from the community uh their uh Canada is doing some work uh in the space as well um there are multiple implementations we're still trying to figure out the best way to do this but fundamentally I think we're. ✪

Manu Sporny: Kind of. ✪

Manu Sporny: Um a having a document uh that you can uh kind of uh provide a Content identifier for so like a a hash so you've got to document that's on the web you also include the content hash of that document so it can't be changed and then um. ✪

Manu Sporny: That document you use uh a certain syntax to inject parts of the credential into the display so if you look at like the driver's license on the left uh the driver's license number the expiration date um the motor vehicle class the address that's all coming straight from the verifiable credential the digitally signed verifiable credential uh and the all the imagery there the photo uh is also digitally signed over uh The Watermark image of the photos digitally signed over and that sort of thing if you look on the right we've got an emergency medical technician EMT credential the ID's pulled from the verifiable credential the names pulled from the verifiable credential that kind of stuff so um we believe like so so this is this is out there the VC playground supports it it'll issue credentials that that use it we already know that there are a number of wallets that are starting to use this to render the credential um in kind of a higher um uh you know you know in a in a. ✪

Manu Sporny: In a way that that. ✪

Manu Sporny: There's not. ✪

Manu Sporny: Too much to this uh extension like it's pretty straightforward uh we think it's probably going to be ready for standards track in Q2 2025 so we need to make 1 more pass on the specification um we need to figure out how to you know work with Singapore you know on this stuff um but uh but it's going fairly well um so far uh that's it for uh render method. ✪

Manu Sporny: Yes uh so the barcodes um uh work is stuff that we are working on with Credence ID uh so for those of you that don't know who created this idea is they're the ones that do the mobile driver's license TSA scanner so when you go to uh board an airplane um. ✪

Manu Sporny: With your uh uh using your uh uh uh mobile driver's license um ISO format uh and uh in the future hopefully verifiable credential format um they're the ones that do the readers um to ensure that the the digital version is is valid they are also working on an upgrade uh to those systems that will read a verifiable credential off of physical license so we're upgrading uh driver's licenses um and uh uh uh permanent resin cards employment authorization documents things like that to include uh a verifiable credential digitally signed uh barcode information uh that lets you know whether or not the physical ID um has information on it that has been issued by uh a known like federal or state government uh to be clear it doesn't mean that you're not dealing with a cop. ✪

Manu Sporny: You can still copy the barcode and it's a totally legit barcode um but you know at least that the individual isn't like entirely made up like the biographic information is made up um in the past 3 months we've added 3 Implement that support verifiable credential barcodes the plan is to try and take them standards track Q2 2025 um the the specifications pretty stable like we've got multiple implementations um people seem to be okay with the the state it's currently in um and their plans on taking this production um at some point uh uh next year. ✪

Manu Sporny: That's it for BC barcodes I think I saw it Demetri jump on the queue. ✪

Dmitri Zagidulin: Yeah I was wondering um if you could say a few words about what's the data what's what's the character limit or the bite limit on uh the cool um barcode that takes up like half the card. ✪

Manu Sporny: Yeah it's it is. ✪

Dmitri Zagidulin: Bigger pieces can be stuff into it. ✪

Manu Sporny: It's it's incredibly limited 200 bytes tops and that includes the digital signature Basin coated so you can you can do about like 125 bytes if you're lucky so what we had to do is we have to see more LD encode the payload so we get the maximum bind compression um and really what it does is it signs the information on the card the um either the pdf417 data which is like you know first name last name address all the data in the barcode it'll sign um so you'll have a hash of the data um and then uh uh for like employment authorization document that front barcode is just a digital signature itself and it signs the information on the back of the card 1 of the biggest fraud vectors as people putting different barcodes um on the back of the card to the front of the card and it doesn't match the information on the other side of the card so um but yeah it's it's super super super super. ✪

Manu Sporny: Super super Limited. ✪

Manu Sporny: There's another 1 that you know of I think Dimitri called verifiable credential QR codes that we're able to put more you know verifiable credential information in but but yeah I mean it's you've got 200 bytes uh realistically to work with and 64 bytes of that is signature in 64 or 32 bytes of it you know tends to be hash and then the rest of it are things like uh status list so you can actually include a a status list suspension revocation um into these things as as well. ✪

Manu Sporny: Did that answer your question Mitri. ✪

Dmitri Zagidulin: Yeah thank you. ✪

Manu Sporny: Yeah the the its it so if we look at that top card um the signature and the data uh live together so the driver's license on the back that huge you know pdf417 barcode um both the driver's license information is expressed in PDF 417 and the signature All In 1 barcode um. ✪

Manu Sporny: The 1. ✪

Manu Sporny: On the bottom. ✪

Manu Sporny: More Legacy documents and by Legacy I mean like mrz data uh that mrz is machine readable Zone it's the thing on the bottom right that I auto blah blah blah stuff Smith John and all the little left left characters uh left angle brackets um that data format comes from like the 650s to 60s like it's a really really super old data format and so we needed to get you know a bark we needed to get a digital signature on the card somewhere most of the people that do these types of cards have like a fingerprint um uh on the card which we were really trying to get rid of like the whole biometric fingerprint stuff we were trying to get it off of the card and so we replaced that fingerprint um with a QR code and that QR code is a digital signature over the data on the back of the card um so the the data in the digital signature are separate they don't live together um. ✪

Manu Sporny: If that. ✪

Manu Sporny: So that's the only difference between the top and the bottom. ✪

Manu Sporny: Exactly right yeah sorry that was totally not apparent was it yeah that's right these to 2 totally different ways of using the same technology on different kind of card form factors. ✪

Manu Sporny: To give you an idea the card on the top is typically used hard on the bottom is typically used for like uh passports or passport cards. ✪

Isaac Patka: Yeah thank you can you hear me. ✪

Isaac Patka: Okay great um yeah so I'll just give a short update actually so I think David all David chat also is on the call um so um we are from verifiable issues and verifiers group so we meet twice a month so bi-weekly and currently we are working on a data model on creating verifiable issue and verify list and um 1 of the use case which we addressed is um the education use case how education credentials are you know can be created or can be verified um globally or and also the data model we just attached in this link actually and uh this data model is built based on Etsy um it does version 1 um but um currently we are updating into a Json Json model previously that it was an XML format and um and um this is a update we just want to give now actually and we are already implemented this in 2 pilot projects um but with a little bit verific uh. ✪

Isaac Patka: Little bit. ✪

Isaac Patka: Adoptions according to the use cases in Gaia X federations use case and also or the Reggie trust as a part of a undp project so both are open source projects and um yeah we are trying to address um we will be publishing the first draft because we are also defining some criterias which attributes are mandatory and which attributes optional and also we need to do some analysis and once in this is done we will be publishing the first the version in the GitHub repository so that's a short update and I'm open for questions and David if you want to add something please feel free to do so. ✪

Manu Sporny: Yep yeah I think they're potentially 2 categories that we might be missing um I went back and forth on trying to figure out if we should add these slides but 1 of them is around like the did method standardization work like that's a pretty big you know kind of work topic that's that's going to be happening um uh that you know this community is also involved in uh and then the other 1 has to do around and this might be a more kind of open question about how we structure this work the other 1 has to do with vocabularies so like you know the citizenship vocabulary um uh the driver's license vocabulary uh that we're working on um uh uh in this group um I I would there there are um at least 30 other vocabularies that I think are going to probably appear at some point next year um in it feels like the way that we currently struct. ✪

Manu Sporny: Work in the. ✪

Manu Sporny: Might lead to the group being overwhelmed by that many parallel work items when they're really. ✪

Manu Sporny: Kind of. ✪

Manu Sporny: Under the guise of like vocabulary development and so this is kind of an open question to the group how do we structure vocabulary development like if we if you know 30 vocabulary is appear next year how does the group kind of absorb all of that work um to be clear like vocabulary development um. ✪

Manu Sporny: Tends to not be the same as like specification development it's usually you like create a first version of the vocabulary it it only takes like you know maybe a day or 2 or maybe at most a week of thinking to put the vocabulary together um and then you can kind of build it out and and experiment with it um and iterate on it um but to get a V1 out it's a pretty short process um um if it's a if it's a fairly focused vocabulary so. ✪

Manu Sporny: Just just wondering what folks think about. ✪

Manu Sporny: You know. ✪

Manu Sporny: How we tackle vocabulary development in this group um the the other point to make about vocabulary development is because. ✪

Manu Sporny: As a community have invested in decentralized ways of producing these vocabularies they don't have to go standards track to be useful um some of them it's you know can be useful to take them standards track but many of them like marking up a movie ticket it's not a very complex data model you know um uh uh it doesn't really need to go through a global standardization process so the question is like how do we how do we do that kind of development um. ✪

Manu Sporny: Um yes some people call them schemas um uh we try to. ✪

Manu Sporny: There are different names for these things right so schemas sometimes people mean Json schema uh other times they mean like how do I describe uh a a driver's license um right and and you can use vocabulary and schemas for both vocabularies are like what are the properties that go into a driver's license what would you find on a driver's license uh whereas schemas are what syntactically exactly you know is a what's the format of the date and um you know it's a string or is it a number or you know things like that so they're they're related uh but not always the same. ✪

Manu Sporny: Yeah that's right yeah that's what the vocabulary Works about and sometimes you also do schema development meaning like the structure and the range uh you know is this field of string or a number or is it a specially formatted string you know things like that. ✪

Ted Thibodeau: I've been here too long which means that I have a number of zombie work items that have repeating events in my calendar um. ✪

Ted Thibodeau: A subscription items from external calendars. ✪

Ted Thibodeau: These were all created. ✪

Ted Thibodeau: Work items were started up or moved around a bit. ✪

Ted Thibodeau: And sometimes there are 2 or 3 or 4 Separate calendar subscriptions for what is the same work item and these may have events happening in the same time or may have multiple events in the weekend 2 or 3 of them are zombies and 1 of them is the real 1. ✪

Ted Thibodeau: Fixing this is going to require. ✪

Ted Thibodeau: The enlistment of people who have moved on to other tasks. ✪

Ted Thibodeau: Like uh my prorock or or a steel there are others I'm sure uh who were. ✪

Ted Thibodeau: Chairs of work items when they were more active but now that they're less active and or even if they're just different people who are sort of leading that work. ✪

Ted Thibodeau: The tools didn't necessarily get passed on. ✪

Ted Thibodeau: This probably needs all the current and former chairs. ✪

Ted Thibodeau: To get together somehow. ✪

Ted Thibodeau: Figure out who has access like at least 1 of these there is a Google account. ✪

Ted Thibodeau: Was set up for the um. ✪

Ted Thibodeau: Traceability work items. ✪

Ted Thibodeau: That link. ✪

Ted Thibodeau: On but nobody seems to know how to log into it and so they can't fix the calendars that are associated. ✪

Ted Thibodeau: I don't want to just drop them from my calendar subscriptions because sometimes there are things in there that are actually still important. ✪

Ted Thibodeau: Uh even though there are zombies going on that just fill up my day with alerts that I can ignore. ✪

Ted Thibodeau: Remembering which 1 is the 1 I should ignore and not ignoring the ones that I shouldn't is challenging. ✪

Ted Thibodeau: I think that's clear enough. ✪

Ted Thibodeau: I think in a. ✪

Ted Thibodeau: A lot of cases together in a zoom session or whatever and. ✪

Ted Thibodeau: Trying to visit the page the relevant page and trying to log in with the relevant ID and. ✪

Ted Thibodeau: If all is good in the world somebody has used their password manager to save the password for the account and can actually log in now. ✪

Ted Thibodeau: And hopefully somebody who's doing that also still has the same phone number so they can get the 2-factor authorization to work I mean I know this is non-trivial. ✪

Ted Thibodeau: It's completely out of my range of being able to do it because I was never 1 of those people. ✪

Ted Thibodeau: And I know it's not in the range of people who are current chairs because they were never 1 of those people when those things were the the way it was done. ✪

Ted Thibodeau: Even even the current. ✪

Ted Thibodeau: Calendar instance of the traceability events. ✪

Ted Thibodeau: Does not have the correct information that it still points to Ai and Mike. ✪

Ted Thibodeau: I'll I'll see what I can track down I know I've done I've sent similar emails before and gotten nowhere there have been you know a reply or 2 saying I don't have access to that or I never had access to that. ✪

Ted Thibodeau: And then it just dies and that's. ✪

Ted Thibodeau: No I think important to get it right because well speaking for myself. ✪

Ted Thibodeau: Email that you send out I don't get to unless I remember I get an alert about the me about the meeting and then I can go search my email for it because those emails don't result in alerts and I have you know 4 million messages a day. ✪

Will Abramson: https://www.w3.org/community/credentials/ ✪

Manu Sporny: Yeah I mean uh where does it say yeah I don't know how to get rid of that like we we published it and then I think we. ✪

Manu Sporny: We did a final report I think we just stopped publishing drafts because it wasn't super useful right and and I don't know if there's a way for you to kind of clean up that yeah I that's what I do I mean I don't think it. ✪

Manu Sporny: Um yeah I don't I don't think it has a lot of we've got the GitHub history and everything that goes back even further than that um the only thing that really matters are the final reports the licensing commitments um to show that like we handed the document off from this group to another group um. ✪

Manu Sporny: Yeah we're missing we're missing bitstring status list. ✪

Manu Sporny: We are missing BBs. ✪

Manu Sporny: Uh crypto Suite. ✪

Manu Sporny: I mean it's a bit late to kind of publish those meaning like they were you know adopted they've already been adopted if we wanted to you know. ✪

Manu Sporny: Have that record I think it would be good for us to go back and fix that um we can always go. ✪

Manu Sporny: That's right yep yep yep. ✪

Manu Sporny: Yeah so I think there's some historical stuff anything that landed in the did working group or the verifiable credential working group is probably fair game like did resolution was incubated here it's not on there you know. ✪

Manu Sporny: Yeah but I think we can basically say like we could so you know we've got the rep The Source we've got the source code repositories and so we can go back in time um and we can publish the document at the point in time and we can tell the CG report folks like hey we forgot to push it at this point in time we would like to do it now as long as the chairs are like yes we want to do that I think that's all all they need to hear. ✪

Manu Sporny: Um ideally VC barcodes VC Wireless. ✪

Manu Sporny: Ideally the post-quantum signature crypto Suites um render method. ✪

Manu Sporny: Uh and uh confidence method are the ones that immediately come to mind. ✪

Manu Sporny: Yep yep traceability is the well I mean we talked about that today but traceability is the other 1. ✪