The W3C Credentials Community Group

Verifiable Claims and Digital Verification

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Credentials CG Telecon

Minutes for 2018-05-22

Manu Sporny is scribing.
Joe Andrieu: Occupational/Education task force, user stories, status of focal use cases, example will go through that. Finally want to wrap up on best way to use this hour...
Joe Andrieu: We're not quite a W3C WG, Chairs just want to get some feedback, most effective way to use our time on the call. Any additions to agenda?

Topic: Introductions/Re-introductions

Kayode Ezike: Hi Kayode, I am currently a masters student at MIT in TimBL's group... focused on Verifiable Credentials, joined the group 3-4 weeks ago.

Topic: Announcements and Reminders

Joe Andrieu: New Wyoming Blockchain laws...
Christopher Allen: Wyoming is defining a "Network Address" that returns a "Public Key"... and "Network Signature" -- DIDs and DID Auth. I'll be attending.
Christopher Allen: I've been asked to present some generic DID slides -- -- emphasize community as a whole.
Christopher Allen: I do want to talk w/ them about proofs, beneficial stewardship things
Manu Sporny: Dropped in link to DIDs and VCs.
Joe Andrieu: I'll send you the deck from RWoT - good slide from Manu on DIF and IIW and RWoT
Kim Hamilton Duffy: Yeah, wanted to mention some updates that I've done to minutes generation script.
Kim Hamilton Duffy: Updated the instructions on publishing the minutes... you need API access to do Twitter stuff, etc.
Kim Hamilton Duffy: This script will take care of for you... you should be able to execute publishing minutes from start to end. There are two manual parts right now... clipping the audio and cleaning up the minutes.
Kim Hamilton Duffy: I'm getting through the last run today, then will ask people to alternate in this process - maybe 15-20 minutes start to end to publish... not a high committment... little more the first time.
Manu Sporny: I just wanted to thank Kim profusely for making all of these changes, you've made me very happy. All the changes have enabled others to publish the minutes and operate more like a community. Thank you! [scribe assist by Dave Longley]
Joe Andrieu: Thanks, Kim! [scribe assist by Dave Longley]
Kim Hamilton Duffy: Thanks [scribe assist by Dave Longley]
Joe Andrieu: We're doing a hackathon in July
Joe Andrieu: Want to get people to join and participate - some interest from DIF and Dan Buchner and DID Hackathon... may be too soon to coordinate on that. Still thinking July 16th... but trying to coordinat ewith Microsoft.
Markus Sabadello: Quickly about MyData - panel w/ multiple presentations w/ multiple DID implementers, not happening, too much other content, not worth having an entire session about DIDs... but several sessions about DIDs and self sovereignty, maybe some talks about DIDs. Unconference event faciliated by Kaliya. Lots of DID-related content.

Topic: Action Items

Moses Ma: Good to get together w/ everyone at Consensus - incredibly crowded hotel/venue - will have first virtual conference around DIDs hosted by GSMA Web... average podcast gets 20,000 listeners.
Lionel_Wolberger: Two items to update - businesses launching /using DIDs in their organizations.
Adrian Gropper: Hi, was going to work with you on that.
Lionel_Wolberger: I had some good results being at Consensus - asking help from community, from RWoT in October - Jonathan Holt.
Lionel_Wolberger: Is a Google Sheet acceptable?
Lionel_Wolberger: What action is it connected to in the community?
Moses Ma: Some info about the 7/24 virtual conference -- Business of Blockchain: Decentralized ID for Distributed Ledgers in the Enterprise Date: 24 July 2018 Virtual Conference hosted by GSMI & Futurelab Consulting (website live next week) About: Blockchain ID - Decentralized ID for Distributed Ledgers in the Enterprise is a half day, virtual conference delivering mission-critical intelligence for global technology leaders, whether from [CUT]
Adrian Gropper: My email is
Joe Andrieu: My first thought was whether this was a work item or action item... not popping out at me, not sure where the genesis of the task happened.
Lionel_Wolberger: 2nd item was paper - did meet with Jan Camenisch - he suggested some changes to the paper, I have one more reader -- then we'll close it.
Lionel_Wolberger: Those are the actions that I have.
Manu Sporny: Mostly questions on the action items. I'm guessing that at least W3C TPAC being on the agenda is taken care of as in we have time allocated that I saw. We could probably strike that off the action item list. The other thing has to do with prepping for the DID work and I'm stalling on that but hope to pick it back up soon. The next pressing thing... [scribe assist by Dave Longley]
Manu Sporny: Is figuring out what we're going to do at Rebooting. Specifically around W3C involvement and that kind of thing. A ping to the chairs that we should get together to figure out how to run that week. That's not specifically CCG related but we have work streams criss-crossing at Rebooting and TPAC. [scribe assist by Dave Longley]
Joe Andrieu: So you and the chairs should get together. [scribe assist by Dave Longley]
Manu Sporny: Yes. [scribe assist by Dave Longley]
Joe Andrieu: Let's do that on the Chairs call on Friday.
Christopher Allen: (I can't this week)

Topic: Work Items

Christopher Allen: (In wyoming)
Andrew Hughes: I'll be starting work on converting DID Primer on ReSpec format. Meeting BC Government folks tomorrow and will start doing that reformatting. If there is pointer to W3C page, that'll be helpful.
Joe Andrieu: We should add that as a work item
Christopher Allen: Including the intitial bootstrap weirdness?
Manu Sporny: For anyone of you on the call that are interested in learning spec training stuff. By the end of the call Andrew should have a spec he can work off of. Would this address the spec training issue, chairs? [scribe assist by Dave Longley]
Moses Ma: Can we get a URL for the spec training?
Andrew Rosen: 1:30 ET Wednesday would be perfect. [scribe assist by Dave Longley]
Christopher Allen: +1
Manu Sporny: Maybe we can do a zoom recording and capture audio and video. [scribe assist by Dave Longley]
Joe Andrieu: That would be a great resource. [scribe assist by Dave Longley]
Manu Sporny: We'll do that. [scribe assist by Dave Longley]
Christopher Allen: I just want to make sure that we're moving over to using action items in CG repo. If you have something on a work item, feel free to use action items, tags, etc
Joe Andrieu: Action items tracked as Github issues:
Adrian Gropper: I would like to add an item to the agenda for discussion. Does not have to be this week. It's about self-sovereign tech and OAuth2.0
Adrian Gropper: Sorry let me dial in again
Andrew Hughes: Andrew’s Zoom line for Wednesday 13:30 Eastern Daylight Join from PC, Mac, Linux, iOS or Android:
Andrew Hughes: Or iPhone one-tap :
Andrew Hughes: US: +16465588656,,2508889474# or +16699006833,,2508889474#
Andrew Hughes: Meeting ID: 250 888 9474
Andrew Hughes: International numbers available:
Adrian Gropper: I'm involved in a number of threads related to how people access RESTful APIs, including things in the government space (medicare health records)... the issue that's been going on forever is dynamic client registration, which in effect is the interface between Self Sovereign Identity and Self Sovereign Technolgoy, based on the credentials of the person that is registering the app? Or based on the credentials of the app itself?
Adrian Gropper: I do think we'll have to take this up in some form or another
Moses Ma: About dapp stores... HTC is very interested in this area. I should ask Phil Chen to join a call to talk about this.
Manu Sporny: Just a quick note to Adrian. I agree it's an important topic. Even the VCWG at W3C is supposed to provide some kind of insight into how VCs and OAuth2 and OpenIDConnect all fit together. There are also work streams on OCAPs and access control/http signatures. There are like six separate work streams that potentially touch one another. +1 to figuring out how to getting these to play nicely with one another. [scribe assist by Dave Longley]
Ryan Grant: It sounded to me like Adrian was asking about political last mile stuff -- using DIDs in an App store?
Moses Ma: FYI, I'm helping HTC and drove them to consider DIDs as part of the core technology for their phone. See:
Adrian Gropper: It's definitely the last mile, but not sure it's political... want to consider differences between federated ID and self sovereign ID to be political...
Ryan Grant: What does Apple need a DID to prove in order to figure out if their App Store is a secure place to download apps.
Adrian Gropper: I'm not worried about Apple... I'm worried about Medicare, the Veterans Administration, where the individual has the right to access their information.
Adrian Gropper: A RESTful API protected via OAuth is provided to meet right of access. If you want to exercise that right of access, PSD2, and grant access directly to Bob (a third party), so that you are in control of that right of access, but you want BoB's client to be connected directly, there has to be a way to dynamically register Bob's client. Bob's client shouldn't need to be approved by any particular federation/authority.
Adrian Gropper: You should have the authority under right of access to connect everyone.
Joe Andrieu: I think that's a great topic, let's dive into it in a future call.

Topic: Update on Educational Task Force

Joe Andrieu: @Manu thanks for the note
Kim Hamilton Duffy: Talk about educational task force - more general statement/comment on Task Forces - which will lead into next agenda item.
Kim Hamilton Duffy: For the education task force, we've made progress on essentially two papers... one is the alignment between Open Badges and Verifiable Credentials. That is in a good stage, we're prototyping now.
Kim Hamilton Duffy: We also have a paper in progress
Kim Hamilton Duffy: Peer claims, education/occupation space.
Kim Hamilton Duffy: Were meeting every other week on Thursdays - met with other folks - Nate and Kerri - we decided to switch to async - offline collaboration.
Kim Hamilton Duffy: Meeting on demand when we need it. When we started the Task Force, the idea was that we had specific technical goals we wanted to achieve, schema alignment, prototyping... use cases, that sort of stuff.
Kim Hamilton Duffy: I think where we went wrong, we didn't have a single leader which made things fuzzy. It was hard to get ongoing traction - nate and I are into schema alignment, but had less knowledge around use cases.
Kim Hamilton Duffy: Ultimately, the overhead of running that was outweighing the benefits.
Kim Hamilton Duffy: We're still making progress, we're switched to more async coordination.
Christopher Allen: Just wanted to say, we're still trying to work out Task Force concept... the idea is that they are officially approved by Community. We do have people that want to drive thingsn forward, no specific work item, but will propose some of them over time.
Christopher Allen: Educational Task Force is a good example of that. As things emerge to be ready to propose as work item for whole community, they would do so. That's a good model, but we're still trying to figure out how to do that.

Topic: Formation of a User Story Task Force

Kim Hamilton Duffy: We wanted to discuss what's going on with User Stories... there is some fuzziness around use cases vs. user stories.
Kim Hamilton Duffy: For use cases - at a high level, we have a concrete need to get Use Cases for DID WG to move forward. That is a fine subset of the broader User Stories.
Kim Hamilton Duffy: Maybe folks thought those were one in the same, but they were not. We're leaning toward having Task Force on User Stories... primary reason is that it's amorphous, need input from people that contribute user stories.
Kim Hamilton Duffy: Just in my recommendation, there would be a single leader running it, making sure that it keeps going, make decision early on regular meetings, coordinate offline... make sure you have time for it.
Kim Hamilton Duffy: Something like this is critical - don't overcommit, focus on concrete deliverables, that's a good model to use for the user stories.
Kim Hamilton Duffy: For people that might be able to lead that - some folks that could lead it - Heather?
Joe Andrieu: We had this notion of stories - put a page on CG website - even Chairs are a bit confused by that. We do want to embrace voices of folks suggesting Stories to get understanding around what we're doing.
Joe Andrieu: It did confuse w/ focal use cases... maybe Task Force would be good to tackle the topic.
Markus Sabadello: There was a discussion on DID Resolution, and separate spec - issue on community repo - had a few calls w/ Dmitri Zagidulin - we're both interested in working on that, skeleton spec and new repo.
Markus Sabadello: On one hand, we don't know how to write specs, so looking for feedback on that.
Markus Sabadello: Wonder if task force would be suitable?
Manu Sporny: +1 To creating a very clear separation between user stories work which is on-going and will continue to progress and the user cases work which is very focused with a deliverable over the summer. [scribe assist by Dave Longley]
Manu Sporny: Understanding that those two things are very separate but complementary is important. [scribe assist by Dave Longley]
Markus Sabadello: Dmitri Zagidulin and I are are interested in DID resolution, we had a few calls and created a new repo and skeleton doc:
Heather Vescent: Yes, I don't have a clear understanding of how these user stories and use cases relate to one another.
Christopher Allen: I think the thing is, the DID Use Cases may not go into the spec - only about what's necessary to get the DID WG started.
Christopher Allen: It's to set it up, to get the work started. That we are able to have the broader discussions once WG is formed. We have to be very careful about how we present it, what we work on, etc.
Christopher Allen: We have a strange catch 22 - if we put a bunch of things in use cases, we might not be able to form the WG. Any User Stories will be passed on the WG once it starts... but Use Cases are used to start up the WG.
Christopher Allen: Working on User Stories deals w/ affecting use cases once the WG forms.
Heather Vescent: I feel like W3C doesn't value the User Stories, this community does values the User Stories, the W3C values the use cases - question of credit, influence, effort.
Heather Vescent: I think user stories are important - want to think they're going to influence the use cases, but don't want to assume that.
Heather Vescent: I'd feel more comfortable, there's a lot more defined here, not just for me, process for larger community.
Manu Sporny: I was going to schedule a call with Heather to go over the entire process. I think you're skeptical about the process and others are as well and that's understandable. There is no thing as "W3C" when it comes to shepherding this through the process. There is no hand off to a completely different group that is "the W3C". This group will take the work forward in the WG. This call will become an "official call". There are no clean lines here. [scribe assist by Dave Longley]
10 Am call... Have a good week.
Manu Sporny: The way this work happens is amorphous. There are processes but with this many people involved there is no one way things happen. I think we need to figure out how a way to build trust in the community because there are a number of people on the call that are looking for guarantees that are probably impossible to give. But I'd like to talk through this with you and others on a separate call. [scribe assist by Dave Longley]
Heather Vescent: Manu - I do want to do this call, but have to be later this week.
Manu Sporny: Joe, it might be good to talk about how things feed into the focal use cases, etc. [scribe assist by Dave Longley]
Kim Hamilton Duffy: Yes, good point Heather, lack of clarity around process involved - other issue, acknowledgement - we had been thinking about User Stories as the DID use case path.
Dave Longley: I'm very in favor of making sure people who contribute get credit for doing so
Kim Hamilton Duffy: It allows more time to get nuanced... there is not a lot of clarity around that right now.
Dave Longley: And that people should be able to contribute in ways that they can and feel comfortable doing
Dave Longley: So
Joe Andrieu: Yes, thank you for raising your concerns heathervescent
Moses Ma: Here are two we're working on: Use Case #1: In October 2017, at least 34 people have been arrested in Egypt as part of an expanding crackdown on the gay and transgender community. The crackdown was enabled by Egyptian police who used social media, gay dating apps and other websites to identify and target gay and transgender activists. If people could use pseudonymous Decentralized IDs linked to a new kind of reputation, it would (a) safeguard the identities of[CUT]
Joe Andrieu: The best way you can contribute to use cases is to write one up.
Joe Andrieu: So, there is a proposal template - write up the things that are important to you - looking at Kim, Manu, and Drummond - companies investing time and money - use cases that are important, we would like to get your input.