The W3C Credentials Community Group

Meeting Transcriptions and Audio Recordings (2014-today)

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VC API Task Force

Transcript for 2022-09-20

<patrick_(idlab)> This page still mentions 4pm ET (fixed now)
<manu_sporny> Thanks for the pointer, fixed the page to the right time... 3pm ET now.
Our Robot Overlords are scribing.
Manu Sporny: Alright welcome to the verifiable credentials API call this is our weekly call this is at the new time and it looks like a number of our regulars probably didn't get the memo that's it that it's at a new time so we may not be able to get too much done on this call today but we'll see how it goes on the agenda.
Manu Sporny: De for the.
Manu Sporny: Is just a quick recap of the w3c technical plenary meeting with respect to how it may or may not affect the VC API will talk about the data Integrity discussion that happened at w3c TPAC we'll have a discussion around potentially snapshotting or moving partially moving over some subset of the VC API to the verifiable credentials working group for publication as.
Manu Sporny: Note in will do issue.
Manu Sporny: Processing as time permits are there any other updates or changes to the agenda.

Topic: Introductions and Reintroductions

Manu Sporny: But if there are no updates let's go into introductions and reintroductions I note that there are a couple of new people on the call so if you don't mind if you're new please Interiors introduce yourself to the group.
Manu Sporny: Go ahead pass.
Patrick_(IDLab): I just wanted to give a few updates to three things so last week it was the hyper Ledger global forum which some people that ideal add participated.
Patrick_(IDLab): We another update so we also have currently a client engagement idle up with the solution provider they want to get sort of the solution against the VC API and I asked them if I could mention their name here so it's a company called IP Toki they are based in Montreal Canada they are interested in participating and these calls and eventually so I sent the invitations or they might show up.
Patrick_(IDLab): Julie introduced themselves and I think they would be.
<kayode_ezike> Unfortunately unable to hear anything after trying two different clients
<kayode_ezike> May have to drop
Patrick_(IDLab): It And discussing how to sort of collaborate to make their implementation known and that's it I also another subject maybe don't have to discuss it today but there was an article published by identity woman last weeks or two weeks ago and it made a bit of the sparked a couple discussions and the hyper Ledger community so I.
Patrick_(IDLab): I was curious to have.
<mahmoud> can you link the article in question please?
Patrick_(IDLab): Some opinion from the people here in the w3c superior was basically an article regarding the an incred data model pushed forward by hyper Ledger and comparing it to the w3c so yeah I was just curious if you have heard of the article and if you have an opinion on that and that's that's pretty much it for me thank you.
Manu Sporny: Great thank you Patrick yes I've seen the article hesitant to comment on it other than many of those things have been said over the past seven plus years five six seven years and we if there's interest here I mean we can discuss it it tends to it's probably going to it's probably a pretty divisive topic.
Manu Sporny: I'm a bit hesitant to bring it up in this form right I mean we're supposed to be focused on VC API knots and on creds and that sort of thing so the place for that conversation might be the more generalized ccg call but if you could provide a link Patrick I think that would help everyone understand which article you're talking about I see Steve on the Queue go ahead Steve.
Steve_Eisler: Hey sorry about that one barge in this time yeah not so much new to the group but certainly new to you all most of you all honesty visor I'm working for a company called Credivera of western Canada we are very much responsible for certifications for place and compliance and we're taking the step into feces here and yeah looking forward to helping contribute on the API side of things.
Manu Sporny: Wonderful welcome to the group happy to see you here Paul.
<dave_longley> /me wow, i didn't hear anything Steve said ... anyone else?
<mahmoud> It worked for me
Paul_Dietrich_GS1: Hello I'm Paul Dietrich from gs1 you sgs1 is a global standards body that stewards the numbering for supply chain products and tooties trade items Etc we've been engaged in DC's for a few years now and finally we're kind of moving forward to join this group and see how we can participate.
<mahmoud> Steve from Crediver
<mahmoud> Credivera*
Manu Sporny: Go ahead great welcome Paul I'm noting coyote and Dave or having audio issues reloading the browser sometimes helps we do have a phone dialing number but I forget what the extension is unfortunately and then again if you are on Mac OS or iPhone there have been issues that you can try switching browsers sometimes that clears up the.
Manu Sporny: The audio issues.
<logan_porter> I'm having issues on mac and android as well
Manu Sporny: Is for those audio issues and welcome Paul wonderful to have you here.

Topic: Announcement or Community Updates

Manu Sporny: Let's see next up on the agenda are well Community updates in general any Community up Jason have a Patrick you covered a few any other announcements or Community updates the only one I have is that next week is rebooting the web of trust in The Hague there are going to be a number of us.
Manu Sporny: There and so.
Manu Sporny: The meeting when next week is probably going to be a while is canceled for those of you that are going to be there we'll see you there for those of you that we won't I'm sorry we won't see you but we will meet again at the same time the following week so this is our permanent time for the call now and we will meet regularly at this time because it's.
Manu Sporny: That's what the poll showed.
Manu Sporny: Is the best time for everyone any other announcements or Community updates.

Topic: VC API and Data Integrity Updates

Manu Sporny: Alright then moving quickly into our agenda the first agenda item has to do with kind of discussions at the w3c technical plenary going to link to the minutes from the w3c technical plenary there one of the discussions or one of the topics that was discussed.
Manu Sporny: Deepak was this concept of streamlining the data Integrity specification so the reason that it has an effect on some of the VC API stuff is that when it comes to testing the VC API as some of you that are new here we have this test Suite that test various aspects of the be Capi issuing verifying things like credential status.
Manu Sporny: Different cryptography.
Manu Sporny: And of course we had to settle on some kind of did to run the test Suites under and that's did key right now so all the tests weeds that do signatures and everything is did key for testing the streamlining data Integrity work is about effectively standardizing doing doing the global standard for the data Integrity mechanism of securing verifiable.
Manu Sporny: Which is one of the mechanisms and we're trying to lock it in basically So within the next let's say nine months probably closer to six months we will have the data Integrity specs locked in such that people can start committing to certain cryptography Suites long-term like five plus years you know long-term kind of support for.
Manu Sporny: Or these cryptography.
Manu Sporny: Those discussions happened they didn't necessarily result in.
Manu Sporny: Absolutely concrete decisions meaning that we had at least one individual may be more say that they objected to the new direction for the crypto sweets in unfortunately I mean it's publicly known it was Joe and unfortunately just not here today I was hoping to have a discussion with him about his concerns around crypto sweets but in general the the suggestion.
Manu Sporny: Was to.
Manu Sporny: Find the crypto sweets the basically the data Integrity crypto sweets and wrap them into the main verifiable credentials context now you don't have to do that if you're dealing with data structures that are other than verifiable credentials suggest like a json-ld document and you want to digitally sign it you can still use all the Legacy crypto sweets and you'll be able to use new crypto sweet so we're not talking about preventing anything that anybody has been doing to date we're.
Manu Sporny: Going to suggest.
Manu Sporny: Asian for developers to make it easier to support multiple crypto sweets so I won't go into the details there are slides here around the proposal slides around Roseville for quickness sweet streamlining.
Manu Sporny: At there's the slide back that puts the proposal forward in general there was enough support for us to start putting in a bunch of PRS in this is just a heads up to this group that we're probably going to use the VC API to test all those new crypto sweet so I'll pause here to see if anyone has any objections on the new path or if you're kind of like I have no.
Manu Sporny: Idea what you're talking about we need more.
Manu Sporny: So any any confusion or objections to the path crypto sweets seem to be taking and using BC API to test them.
Manu Sporny: Go ahead Paul is that an old Q or is that a new one.
Manu Sporny: Okay lq Muhammad go ahead please.
Mahmoud Alkhraishi: I just want to be clear that there were as far as I can tell two parts of that proposal one part is to include Signature suites in the base verifiable credentials context and another part of how do we ensure backwards compatibility and long-term use so please review those slides that were very very helpful I just want to I just want to underline those two key points.
Manu Sporny: Yes that was yeah excellent point Muhammad they were really two decisions that need to be made and we can make those decisions independently of one another and at no point are we going to lose backwards compatibility like you can still do the old stuff this was just a proposal for us being able to make it easier for some of the new stuff.
Manu Sporny: Patrick you did have your hand up did you want to go or did that answer your question.
Patrick_(IDLab): Yeah I can just maybe voice what I'm thinking like so for me yeah just like this like a right to bit confusing and that's my first reaction but I just want to make sure I understand so the from what I understood the last time the goal was to have individual test suite for each cryptographic methods so is that still going to be the way the tests are going to be driven except there will be more tests.
Patrick_(IDLab): The sort of proof being outside of the context and the other one to prove being sort of included or embedded under contact so those would be two separate tests.
Manu Sporny: Um so there will still be one test Suite / crypto sweet so if you're using like e.t. to 5519 signature 2020 there's a separate test suite for that the new stuff is going to be called like EDSA 2020 or BBS 2020 or ecdsa 2020 sorry 2022 those new.
Manu Sporny: Ones are going to get one test.
Manu Sporny: The sweet so they will always be this one-to-one mapping between test suite and Krypton sweet and that won't change what what you said was slightly nuanced there's a slightly nuanced difference there the group has not made a decision on whether or not to include this new it's called it data Integrity proof type like if they include that in the base verifiable credential version 2 context.
Manu Sporny: Has to include new crypto sweets as far as they follow you know that General design pattern but that decision hasn't been made yet so the we expect the test Suite might change if we were testing verifiable credentials so either you're going to need a new data integrity.
Manu Sporny: In the worst case you're going to need to use a new data Integrity context in addition to the base verifiable credentials context that's it the worst case which is the case we're in right now or the verifiable credential working group will decide you know what let's make it easier on developers and let's just put that into the base context and if that happens then the only thing you need to digitally sign a verifiable credential is the base context and you will by doing that you will be able to support.
Manu Sporny: BBS and all kinds of different contexts Mahmoud you're next and then Dave Longley.
Mahmoud Alkhraishi: I didn't kill I think this was an old key.
Manu Sporny: Oops sorry old you go ahead Dave.
Dave Longley: Yeah so I think no matter what there's going to be a data Integrity context that stands alone so it can be used with things other than VCS and that also implies that there would be tests where that context is used as well so I think no matter what in this is to Patrick's Point about there being two different sets of tests for things that are certainly for things that are not be seized data Integrity tests would be run against the day.
Manu Sporny: Yep hopefully hopefully that helps and hopefully this is not confusing things more than then helping it really helps to have seen the you know the the slide deck and absorbed it go ahead Paul.
Paul_Dietrich_GS1: Your mommy you mentioned in the on the TPAC meeting that it was hard for developers and that's what motivated this change can you be specific about what exactly was hard and how this is making easier.
Mahmoud Alkhraishi: +1 Great question
Manu Sporny: Sure yeah that's that's a great question maybe that will clarify it so developers have basically said stop making us create new crypto sweet contexts in is there an easier way for us to do this so it was mostly a complaint with like no solution right is it was you're making us include all these different crypto sweets we don't want to do that anymore in there was a concern around.
Manu Sporny: So sweet.
Manu Sporny: In like for every new crypto sweet we will need a new json-ld context and it turns out that the vast majority of those new crypto sweets everything was the same in the crypto sweet context except for like the type so the only thing that you know people were basically copying and pasting these things and the only thing that was really changing was the type like ed2 5519 signature 2020 or Json web signature 2020 or like that was the only.
Manu Sporny: Only thing that was changing so it was a lot of kind of template copy paste code that Developers.
Manu Sporny: The new proposal basically says let's just call these all all of these things data Integrity proofs in the only thing that changes is the name of the crypto sweet which is the string and so there will be so basically all these cryptic sweets will share a base context in the only thing that changes is kind of the crypto sweet string and by doing that all of a sudden you know.
Manu Sporny: If the working group adopts.
Manu Sporny: There you just need a base verifiable credential be to context like they will be like they'll be two contexts in the verifiable credential they'll be the base verifiable credential one and then they'll be the market vertical specific one like for education or traceability or things of that nature hopefully that helped go ahead Dave.
Dave Longley: And so today developers if they want to add a new crypto sweet to any of their applications software wherever they want to put it let me start with the ideal case if they want to add one is they install a new library and hook that Library up to support that crypto sweet the what they have to do today is they have to do that and then they additionally have to update any context document loaders that they have to support whatever new context are brought in by the new suites.
Dave Longley: And they have to update any Jason schemas that might in may or may not.
Dave Longley: Current or new properties and there's a number of other little side pieces that are involved there that you may or may not have to touch or deal with and so this is designed to make it so that it's much much easier to to add or remove crypto sweets from your software because the core format is not changing everything's been pushed down into the layering is changed so that any proof values and things like that.
Dave Longley: The data that is specific to the crypto sweet so the only thing you're Jason scheme is looking for is like proof value now and doesn't need to change your crypto sweet changes the context don't need to change because any of the semantic values have been pushed out of that into a different space so you don't need to change those things and so ultimately we've gotten as close as we think we can to making it so that when you want to add or change support for crypto swedes you just get a library that.
Dave Longley: That and hook that up to your application there aren't other things that you also have to.
Manu Sporny: Yeah and you know maybe it would just it's easier to just to show this I think II think you know the mistake I made here was that most of the people here we're not a w3c TPAC and said this is probably all very new and confusing let me share my screen in point to what the old version and the new version looks like and maybe you know that's what we spend time doing.
Manu Sporny: Can folks see my screen.
Manu Sporny: All right so this is what we do today I'm just just look at the center part of the screen here so today we have a version 1 credentials context and then you have your Market vertical Pacific 14 like education or supply chain or citizen identity and today we have to add a crypto sweet to say this is how I'm going to digitally sign it so you end up having like three contexts here right and it's this third one.
Manu Sporny: That people were complaining about right they were like hey that's really.
Manu Sporny: And difficult please don't do that in the only thing that it really did was it established this type value here right so this is today if people are doing this today they don't have to change to this new mechanism so they can continue to do like if people were not having a problem with this they can continue to do this but we're trying to be responsive to like implementer feedback and so.
Manu Sporny: The suggestion was.
Manu Sporny: I can't we just figure out a way to wrap this thing into the base context so the proposal is to move to something that looks like this so in the next working so within the next nine months the suggestion we are going to move to a V2 context for verifiable credentials V1 all the old V1 stuff will continue to work like don't worry that stuff you know.
Manu Sporny: And will continue to.
Manu Sporny: Do its thing but the new V2 one will could potentially fold the crypto sweets into it the type for all in this is just data Integrity proofs it has nothing to do with the job based stuff right so for data Integrity stuff the type will always be data Integrity proof but will introduce this new value called crypto Suite which will call out the specific crypto sweet.
Manu Sporny: This may like.
Manu Sporny: Might look at this and go like I don't understand what the big deal is but fundamentally we're not having to declare any new json-ld types from new new crypto sweets that's the big change in my making this big change then all of a sudden the base V2 context supports many different types of crypto so the list of all the different types of crypto we can support with this new model is down here at the bottom right all these different types of crypto sweets or.
Manu Sporny: Or are supported.
Manu Sporny: This new model so let me stop there Mahmoud you're on the Queue and then Patrick.
Mahmoud Alkhraishi: Would you mind going back one slide or two slides to the side that has the current.
Mahmoud Alkhraishi: One thing I would note here is what you're seeing on the screen only applies to for example e 2519 that 2020 some of the other sweets are already embedded in the V1 context so if you look at the V1 context right now which I'm going to put in as a link in chat you'll see that there are existing sweets like it if it 519 signature 2018 right and.
Mahmoud Alkhraishi: What we're doing here isn't revolutionary right.
Mahmoud Alkhraishi: Doing something that's not already currently being done we're just generalizing this solution so that it applies to a bunch of other at the sweets without having to you know having to do this work for every single news with the gets added.
Manu Sporny: Yeah so yeah that's exactly right my mood like the mistake we made in the V1 context was we started to lock into very specific crypto sweets in that bounds how like it bound how crypto sweets could evolve with how verifiable credentials context would evolve it bound them together and we're trying to split them apart right now because their number of these that like people just don't use today like RSA.
Manu Sporny: HR 2018 and like.
Manu Sporny: This R1 signature isn't used this one's used so we're trying to do less of a we don't want to pick winners this time around but we always said but we do want to help developers you know stay fairly we just want to help developers you know make it a bit easier for them Patrick go ahead.
Patrick_(IDLab): Yeah I was just wondering so you showed the slide of the sort of found a standard prototype of what it would look like if the crypto sweet would be and better than the existing context do you have an example of the other alternative which would be to create a whole new context for the crystals could persuade you have like a visual example of that.
Manu Sporny: Yeah that's that's this one right here that's what we do today so we create a totally new context for each crypto sweet today that's the current state of the ecosystem.
Manu Sporny: So note how this is a separate crypto Suite that's defined and included separately.
Manu Sporny: Then this one doesn't have that third one it doesn't have that led to 5519 one.
Patrick_(IDLab): Okay I see.
Manu Sporny: Yeah so just removes the need to do that.
Mahmoud Alkhraishi: As an implementer what this means is you will now need to add that context every time you see a data type of a context is not in the existing V1 crypto sweet which is a huge headache whereas it could easily be done for you for was it 80% of the quickest way to find I'm not sure and you wouldn't lose the ability and this is the key part if you want to go and add your own crypto sweet.
Mahmoud Alkhraishi: You would not lose that ability can.
Mahmoud Alkhraishi: Thanks for your own thing it just gives you this other Avenue that captures the vast majority of people.
Manu Sporny: Yep exactly right we're not losing any we're nobody's losing any features this is just an optimization basically so the suggestion is you know we start using the optimization in this group but again it's like it's this optional it is an optional thing people don't have to do this but that's kind of the direction that we think people are going to go because it's just you know easier to eat Caesar.
Manu Sporny: ER to work with like you don't.
Manu Sporny: Remember which crypto sweet context you need to include when you're when you're running code anymore.
Manu Sporny: Okay any questions concerns comments on that I think that it's just this is just like a heads up to the group like this this looks to be where the verifiable credentials you know working group might be headed some variation of this future in it will you know we will probably start seeing new crypto sweet test Suites driven by the VC API that kind of test this functionality go ahead Patrick.
Patrick_(IDLab): Is it a concern that while you developed a new test suite for the crypto sweets that this work could eventually be made deprecated depending on the direction that they decide to go or is there a way to sort of plan in advance and make those test Suite sort of adaptable to the to whatever direction is taken with this.
Manu Sporny: At this point enough I think we've got enough direction from the group where we're not very concerned about major changes like we're not expecting there to be major changes the biggest change that's going to affect the test Suite is whether or not the working group decides to include the data Integrity proof definition in the base V2 context or if they say no we don't want to.
Manu Sporny: Do that.
<dave_longley> it shouldn't be a huge lift in the test suite code
Manu Sporny: I have a separate data Integrity context that's the only thing that would that would impact the test Suite so you shouldn't be a huge lift.
Patrick_(IDLab): Say it be a good idea to Boop to be like proactive and include those two scenarios and the test suite and added as a flag if that's at all possible or that would be kind of redundant.
<dave_longley> YAGNI (you aren't going to need it) principle ... don't do it until you know you need it
Manu Sporny: I think we should just wait for the group to decide right I mean that's it's an excellent question but I think the group is probably going to make that decision in the next two months and you know there is like this really strong compelling need that we absolutely need these cryptos tweet kryptos we test Suites to be done in the next two months so I think we can wait largely on that.
Manu Sporny: Did I answer your question Patrick.

Topic: Snapshot VC API for VCWG?

Manu Sporny: Okay all right okay well that's just the heads up that's agenda item 2 VC API and data Integrity updates let's go ahead and move on to the next issue which has to do with how this group might want to move some of the work we're doing here into the VC.
Manu Sporny: So the the question here trying to get this larger.
Manu Sporny: Um so we have a number of and I know their new people on the call it sure let me let me show folks what we're talking about the Cochran ground the conversation here so currently this group The VC API work item group has a set of interoperability test reports that we work on.
Manu Sporny: We have them for.
Manu Sporny: Words we have them for verifiers I think we have that Edie yeah we have it for cryptos sweets.
Manu Sporny: So for like the issuer's we have it's one two three four five six companies implementing the VC API for issuing right now and we have a whole bunch of interop tests that we do against the API right we have a whole bunch of tests for verifiers and we have again the same six implementers implementing the BC API and demonstrating a whole bunch of interop.
Manu Sporny: Level we have like three implementers for the Ed to 55:19 Signature 2020 test Suite that does again data model checking and then cryptography cryptographic signature checking and then does an N by n test I think yeah it doesn't end by in test to see if one organization can generate is verifiable credential with signature and the other organization can verify.
Manu Sporny: If I it but positive and negative tests.
Manu Sporny: We have all these test Suites in all of these test Suites are driven at their core by the VC API specifically the issuer in point in the verifier in point so we have all this infrastructure here that's super useful in the verifiable credential working group needs a new test Suite in some of the requirements put forward or that you know the.
Manu Sporny: The test Suite.
Manu Sporny: Should be able to be run on a regular basis we should be able to hook into anyone's issuance or verification infrastructure to test it we should be able to do in by n Matrix testing we should be able to test very specific normative requirements in the specification like razor sharp focus on like the you know the the issuer property must have this form with these fields and all that kind of stuff right.
Manu Sporny: We looked at a whole bunch of different types of testing so the VC working group is looking for a new way of doing testing digital Bazaar is suggesting that we should just reuse the VC API specifically just the issuer in just the verifier in points to do testing because of data integrity and the crypto sweet stuff uses the VC API really successfully to do and by in testing right.
Manu Sporny: Right so.
Manu Sporny: It would be useful to have a subset of the VC API documented in the verifiable credentials working group as effectively a note to talk about how the test Suite you know what the endpoints for the test we had and everything are so the suggestion here is that we move at least those two end points into the verifiable credential working group and there's kind of a giant.
Manu Sporny: Hand wave around like.
Manu Sporny: That like do we do it inspect form do we do it in OAS form if we do that then how do we keep the work that we're doing here aligned with the work that's going on there and then how do we also make sure that it's lined with the traceability folks you know use of parts of the VC API there's just a lot of coordination you know work that needs to go on and that's kind of what the discussion today is about like one do we want to try and do that like are we support are the.
Manu Sporny: Well in this group.
Manu Sporny: Verifiable credentials working group reusing BC API for the test Suite to are we interested in at least providing to of the endpoints issuance and verification to the VC working group you know do we feel like they're stable enough to do a test Suite to run a test suite and then three we need to talk about like the details of coordinating these things between the multiple groups.
Manu Sporny: So I'll stop.
Manu Sporny: Um and see if there any questions any clarifying questions around you know what we're trying to do here we take a pause.
Manu Sporny: Go ahead Patrick.
Patrick_(IDLab): If someone else's question regarding what you just explained it they can go ahead and like something that's more related to the slides that you shared.
Manu Sporny: Okay well is it does it go back into another topic Patrick.
Patrick_(IDLab): It's about proofs.
Manu Sporny: Okay let me finish this thought and it may be that right now we just don't have any feedback on this about whether people want to do it or not and then we can we can go back to that in Patrick please remind me if it slips my mind please interrupt and remind me Logan go ahead.
Manu Sporny: Yes yeah because we wrote it so here let me let me go to the VC data model thing there's this implementation so if you go to the current verifiable credentials data model in you go to the header there's this thing that says implementation report and if we click on this we will go this is the implementation report for a verifiable.
Manu Sporny: Giles right and so.
Manu Sporny: Scott every normative statement in the specification both positive and negative test for it and then it's got every implementer along the top so like brightlink redly evernham factum gravity so you know all these people implemented it this was a static test Suite which basically meant like we gave each each Library implementer we gave them the test suite and then they ran it against a local.
Manu Sporny: Wised copy.
Manu Sporny: To generate a report on whether or not they passed each test so it was kind of self-reported right in the problem with this test Suite is that basically they ran it once and if they got a whole bunch of green check marks many of them never came back they never ran it again so for some of these folks these tests are like two plus years out of date we have no idea what their current Library does and we would have to like get in touch with a human being.
Manu Sporny: And get them to run.
Manu Sporny: By hand again it also required them to create also created us to sorry it also required us to invent a command line text based protocol that looks very much like the VC API but it only works on like standard in and standard out on a console so we would have liked this command line tool if you were a library implementer we would have a command line tool call a binary version the command line version.
Manu Sporny: None of your.
Manu Sporny: We would feed a verifiable credential to you and then you would give us one back that was you know digitally signed or we would ask you to verify it and you would tell us whether or not it past verification so it was this completely bespoke command-line driven thing and today we have the very the VC API it the VC API basically does the same thing right so the question was do we want to keep using this old bespoke man.
Manu Sporny: Line thing or do we want to just use the VC API because.
Manu Sporny: I supports everything that we'd need to use to test and we can run be Capi on a nightly basis or weekly basis there was some pushback I think Gabe from Square was like can we please do this in Docker because like you shouldn't you shouldn't have to run your own infrastructure to be able to pass the test Suite we have tried doctor before it was not a successful outcome.
Manu Sporny: But there was there was a suggestion that.
Manu Sporny: Maybe somebody else would run your Docker instance you know as a VC API endpoints so that we could do testing so it's like the open-source developers wouldn't have to run it somebody that's a company that has infrastructure you know could run it or run it in a in a droplet so sorry that was a very long-winded answer to your question Logan but this is what the old test Suite looks like currently and it has some pretty serious flaws.
Manu Sporny: Is that the VC API could probably help with that.
Manu Sporny: Answer your question Logan.
Manu Sporny: Yeah and that's a that's an open question we know some people don't want to do that and we know that that could what's the word it could disenfranchised some of the smaller open-source developers and we definitely don't want to do that and so there I think there's a I think we get past that problem if there is some organization that's willing to.
Manu Sporny: Forever run Docker instance for example but we also understand that some companies just don't want to put their infrastructure up 24/7 365 because you know people can try and attack it and all that kind of stuff with that said we have six companies that are doing just that right now each one of these companies has infrastructure running 24/7 that the test Suite runs against Patrick Iran the queue.
Patrick_(IDLab): Yeah it's want to point out is like what you just described is exactly what we do at the idea lab so we have an engagement right now with a client so we provided a private environment we can work with them to deploy virtual machines whatever they need to deploy their solution and then they come have someone connect to their environment deploy their solution we provide them with the public IP follicular mobile IP with the public and point and then we run tests.
Patrick_(IDLab): against their solution so that's sort of one thing that that we.
Patrick_(IDLab): Roll that we want to take in the community and another thing I wanted to mention so for this test Suite here one of the projects that I've done personally is I made a fork of the test Suite got rid of all the negative testing and put it in the docker container and made it so that you could feed to that Docker container and already sign verified.
Patrick_(IDLab): Bowl credential.
Patrick_(IDLab): Would just validate the data format so that's one sort of an old project that I've made that I thought was pretty interesting so I called it a sort of a VC validator simple application so that was one way I was going with the darker another question I had so for that test Suite you need to fill configuration file with generator that was I believe traditionally meant to roll with like a binary.
Patrick_(IDLab): command line.
Patrick_(IDLab): And one of the example was the PCGS solution you know that was made by I believe it's your company if I'm correct digital bizarre.
Patrick_(IDLab): Yeah so I was able to run this with the latest version which is sort of a darker base as the way of doing it so I was able to end the generator line put Docker command and it would feed the test end is Docker container and the tests ran fine another question I had maybe you would have a better idea if this would be possible is for that generator command to do some sort of curl.
Patrick_(IDLab): West against an API and.
Patrick_(IDLab): She did those.
Patrick_(IDLab): Well into this curl request do you think that could be possible it was my my next sort of thing to play around with with this this sweet.
Manu Sporny: Yeah certainly it should be possible yeah absolutely I think what we're trying to do so all these things are possible right I think what we're trying to do is to add a continuous integration continuous deployment kind of process to this so that you know the whole ecosystem can see that on any given day how how everyone's doing with respect to conforming to the spec and conforming to the crypto sweets and conforming to.
Manu Sporny: To the.
Manu Sporny: Stuff right we're trying to you know take go away from the static testing which is what we did for the VC 10 and 11 and we're trying to go to more Dynamic testing which is what we're doing with the VC API test Suites but the short answer Patrick is yeah I mean you should because it's a command-line driven thing you can always make a curl commands right a curl call out to an external system.
Manu Sporny: Do the testing.
Manu Sporny: Okay I think that's enough on this I you know this is just I guess this is well is kind of a I don't know if we're going to get to consensus today on whether or not we want a snapshot to be Capi to move it in the verifiable credentials working group maybe folks can think about it over the next two weeks and then if you have thought.
Manu Sporny: Thoughts please.
Manu Sporny: As comments to the issue issue three or four because we will need to make a decision on this shortly around you know how we're going to do testing my mood you're on the queue.
Mahmoud Alkhraishi: So I guess I had a pretty big three points I want to make I want to answer the doctor I think specifically I believe they are currently using this at if it has been working great and it's made a lot of this easier for smaller implementers I would love it if we can do it I understand if it's you know hard.
Mahmoud Alkhraishi: For people to run.
Mahmoud Alkhraishi: And so I'm it's a bit of a I would love it if we can do it in a reasonable way I've seen a reasonable way to do it I'm just not sure how we could apply it here I had a question on the purpose of the note that would go into the VC working group it started off like you were saying we want to add the VC issue we're in verifier as a note into the VC working group and then it felt like you were saying that note will be used to.
Mahmoud Alkhraishi: A straight this is how you can do.
Mahmoud Alkhraishi: So the question is basically is it the first one where it's just we want to add this is how you can do issuance and verification using the VC API to the VC working group or was it more this is how you can do it for the purpose of demonstrating this is how you can do test right and last but not least how do you envision the work progressing afterwards is this something where the ccg will no longer be working on it is this something where we would only.
Mahmoud Alkhraishi: Working on it at the working group.
Manu Sporny: Yeah it all excellent questions mom and I put myself on the key to respond go ahead Paul.
Paul_Dietrich_GS1: Yeah just a comment on nomenclature money I think that right now as a newcomer I see this BC apis and API and the VCA API test Suite is a test suite for that API but now what you're proposing is that this DC API is the API for a test suite and so like the nomenclature here for me gets pretty confusing and it makes me like question again we'll what is this API is it a test Suite or is it an API that's in production or is you know what I'm saying.
Paul_Dietrich_GS1: We now have a test suite for the API and then API.
Manu Sporny: Yeah both excellent it it kind of dovetails with what Mahmud was saying so my apologies I think I confuse things at the let me I'm looking for so this is the verifiable credentials API specification that we have right now right so there is a specification that talks about how you issue verify in present today.
Manu Sporny: Or work item in this group that work item is being used for a variety of other things it's being used to drive issuing and verification because the API is used for a showing in verifying so there's a very there's a very strong distinction between the testing stuff that we're doing here in the testing stuff the verifiable credentials group is doing that's one set of work or sorry those are two separate things.
Manu Sporny: And then there's.
Manu Sporny: Capi which is the main specification that we're working on here so the suggestion is the VC API is useful for a variety of different things in the verifiable credentials working group has as one of its potential deliverables documenting ways that credentials can be issued and verified so the VC API specifically listed as something that the group can can.
Manu Sporny: Work on the verifiable credentials working group.
Manu Sporny: We cannot do a global standard on it there were objections to doing that but what we can do is talk about it and document it in that kind of stuff so this document that's in our control right now we can either share control of or handed completely over to the verifiable credential working group so that's that's item one and that it's just about the VC API and what it does which is issue verify in present.
Manu Sporny: Ain't right okay so that's that's all.
Manu Sporny: We can move it over and have them work it at work on it as a note in the verifiable credentials working group.
Manu Sporny: Okay the second thing is we are also working on tests in all of the test Suites that we're working on here use the VC API to run the test Suite right and so there's a whole bunch of testing and test Suite stuff that we that we use in the mechanism that we use to drive the test Suites are the BC API and so the verifiable credentials working group needs that capability and we have.
Manu Sporny: Of it.
Manu Sporny: Shin is do we want to move that capability over we do we want to enable the verifiable credentials working group with that capability so that's kind of the second you know question that's that's under discussion did that help clarify things Paul or did that make it.
Manu Sporny: Worse who are you still.
<dave_longley> The VCWG needs a test suite. It could be implemented via an HTTP API. A new bespoke one could be created to do that -- or we should say, hey, we've got such an API, implement to that.
<dave_longley> should/could
<mahmoud> It is a test suite to test the VCAPI
Manu Sporny: I think we lost them.
<paul_dietrich_gs1> present-
Mahmoud Alkhraishi: I think Paul sorry was it yeah the key dropped yeah I think it is a test we did that study Capi so I think what the name is entirely accurate unless I'm completely misunderstanding your proposal here on my new your proposal is let's use the this test Suite as a blueprint for any future test we want to use also we're putting in the VC API as the note so let's have this test Suite to test that note.
Mahmoud Alkhraishi: Networking group as well.
Manu Sporny: Yes almost the last bit we could do we could decide not to do you know it's an optional thing but yeah I think you got it Paul we lost you there I think we got what you were saying but would you like to kind of restate.
Paul_Dietrich_GS1: No that's all right I'll let it go money.
Manu Sporny: Okay all right yeah I mean your points well-taken Paul I mean you know I think we're trying to we're trying to figure out the best way to convey this stuff because it is multiple different things that are potentially meshed together and the clearer the delineation the easier it is for us to kind of talk about it so in the future probably what we should do is talk about.
Manu Sporny: The VCA.
Manu Sporny: I the specification has its own thing in what do we want to do with it and the question there that folks should you know spend the next two weeks thinking about is we believe that no other API does issuing in verifying so specifically the VC API is the only API that does issuing and verifying now specifically.
Manu Sporny: You know with.
Manu Sporny: Did come in open idoi DC for VCI stuff those things kind of do presentations so there's a there's a question around you know presentation but for as far as we know when you're talking about back ends kind of like microservices and HTTP API is the VC API is the only one that does issuing in verifying for like back office stuff.
Manu Sporny: So the suggestion is.
Mahmoud Alkhraishi: +1
Manu Sporny: Could we just move issuing and verifying the parts of the spec that have to do with issuing and verifying over to the VC WG we don't think that that is going to be a controversial thing because it's already in scope for the charter and it's doing things that the other thing and you know the other protocols don't do Patrick you put yourself on the Queue and then you yourself off.
Manu Sporny: Yeah that's a good point.
Patrick_(IDLab): Yeah I think they're just short on time I'll make in that style just going to point out like so the the Aries Cloud agent does have an end point that can they don't call it issue but they call it sighing a credential which returns you verifiable credential another endpoint that verifies it so there's two specific and point available on an API that does those two functions so I just wanted to point this out.
Manu Sporny: And we do have areas people that are in the group so I think they would have to see if they feel I mean they could you know they could they could try and put their note in as well so yeah maybe it's just going to be controversial anyway we go about it.
Manu Sporny: Noting mirror over time my apologies for going over time we will not have the meeting next week because next week is rebooting the web of trust in the meantime folks should think about you know whether or not we want to move this work into the VC working group and and we'll come back and discuss the topic in two weeks okay thanks everyone safe Journeys to rebooting if you're going there and if not.
Manu Sporny: In your schedule next week take care bye.