The W3C Credentials Community Group

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VC API Task Force

Transcript for 2022-10-25

Our Robot Overlords are scribing.
Manu Sporny: Okay here is the agenda for today.
Manu Sporny: Is the verifiable credentials API work item call this is October 25th 2022 on the agenda today is standard introductions relevant Community updates we have challenge Management in the VC API which is a discussion we started last week which we will continue this week we have an.
Manu Sporny: Issue around.
Manu Sporny: Yeah we have an issue for default issuer and then credential ID and updating the credential status and then any other issues as time permits anything else that we need to cover today.
Manu Sporny: Sure thing hate on how you doing.
Todd Snyder: I'd post a question if there's time for meeting about the options being passed to the issuer in the verifier get some clarity on this I know.
Manu Sporny: See if this works it's working okay all right so yeah Todd let's take that as maybe the first item how much time do you need for that.
Todd Snyder: I just really wanted some clarification on the how we're supposed to handle the options being passed in.
Manu Sporny: Okay okay alright so let's go ahead and take that up right after we do introductions and relevant Community updates any other topics to cover today.

Topic: Introductions, Relevant Community Updates

Manu Sporny: Okay if not let's go ahead and get into the agenda is there anyone new to the call Todd maybe you could give a little bit of your background since you're new here.
Todd Snyder: It sure I'm representing gs1 u.s. today I believe Paul Dietrich was involved the calls previously you could make it today yeah I've been working with did we see stuff for last year and a half recently we've been starting a new project try to get a better handle on what you guys are doing is what was some of the stuff going on with the border patrol traceability sweet stuff that's pretty much all.
Todd Snyder: It takes me.
Manu Sporny: Great welcome to the group Todd good to see you here anyone else that's new to the call that wants to do an introduction or reintroduction if you change jobs or just want to say hi again.
Manu Sporny: Right then next up is relevant Community updates please feel free to Q if you've got any I've got a couple one of them is that the verifiable credential data Integrity spec is going to be going to first public working draft the vote for that is tomorrow I believe so let me add this link.
Manu Sporny: Ink in.
<manu_sporny> Create a First Public Working Draft for Data Integrity:
Manu Sporny: There's a PR to do a first public working draft of data integrity and that covers all the security in securing verifiable credentials if you using the json-ld form of those things.
Manu Sporny: So there's that.
Manu Sporny: The other heads up and we'll go into this in a bit we're going to cover some pull request but there's a number of pull requests that have been raised against the verifiable credentials API do to kind of implementation feedback so we should probably cover those forgot to mention those at the at the top of the agenda anything else any other updates things that we should know about.
Manu Sporny: Oh I should I totally forgot to mention also that the jobs for the future plugfest number two is happening right now and we have been busily integrating people that are have implemented it over chappie or using the verifiable credential API in today we have me try and go to the issue.
Manu Sporny: Or playground.
Manu Sporny: You're my screen here so today we've got the following issuers implemented API catalog that's a java-based implementation Danube Tech that's Marcus's implementation learning economy is the newest addition to the issuer back ends measure I/O and of course the various demo issuer so we've got these five with a.
Manu Sporny: Couple more on.
Manu Sporny: At least two to three more that are on the way that we're going to integrate with this and that's basically for issuing you know jobs for the future badges but the good news here is that we're going to be adding more and more credentials as time goes on to this list and so if anyone in the group wants a credential here like a specific type of verifiable credential definitely let us know and we'll try to integrate it into the the list of credentials we also have a.
Manu Sporny: Examples thing that we're putting together where anybody can contribute verifiable credential kind of templates and they'll be added to the list and then using that you can select the backend issuing framework select whether or not you want it off and then issue the credential and then put it into any wallet that supports either web-based digital wallets through choppy or native wallets through chappie.
Manu Sporny: So yeah that's.
Manu Sporny: On and again I think we've got three digital wallets and five issuers so far that have been degraded with a couple more on the way I'm more wallets and were issuers there okay I think that's it for announcements go ahead Patrick.
Patrick_(IDLab): Sorry what's the name of what's the name of this event.
<dmitri_zagidulin> the event link is:
Manu Sporny: The jobs for the future plugfest so it's jmf plug-in jobs here or the future so it's mused slowed its jobs for the Future these folks and it's Walmart Foundation has funded a big plugfest for verifiable potentially Shores digital wallets verifiers it's happening in three stages we're in.
Manu Sporny: Stage 2 now stage.
Manu Sporny: The second phase ends mid-november and then the third phase is going to test while it's tough and Dimitri put a link in in the chat Channel if you're interested in learning more.
Manu Sporny: Thing else before we move on from here.

Topic: VC API Options

Manu Sporny: Todd why don't we pick up your question first this is VC options.
Todd Snyder: Yeah we've been working on implementing our own version of the VC API just want to get some clarification or where we can maybe find some examples what people are doing with the the main challenge when they're issuing a single a single credential not sure exactly what to do with those options rather they would reflect the V3 API.
<manu_sporny> How domain and challenge is used today:
Manu Sporny: Gotcha so in the VP request spec I think we have an example in bid authentication around somehow domain and challenges used so I'm going to put something in the chat channel for you to copy.
Manu Sporny: With the VC API and if you're using the verifiable presentation request thing and you're doing something like did authentication when a did authentication comes across it asks it gives you a challenge and a domain and what you're supposed to do is you're supposed to include that challenge and the domain in your response so the the site the verifier will say I need you to did authenticate with me.
Manu Sporny: These did methods here's a challenge and here's a domain that you need to include in your response and then when you respond what you do is you create a verifiable presentation in sign it and you know this is you the holder or signing it in in the proof block you're supposed to include the challenge ensure the domain matches the domain you're talking to and then include the domain as well did that answer your question Todd or.
Manu Sporny: You don't have to.
Todd Snyder: A little bit okay yeah so we're just working with the VC API test Suite right now and focusing on issuing so wasn't clear to us so this is a Capri.
Manu Sporny: Looted for that for the test suite for just the test Suite you don't need to include domain or challenge the the test Suite only tests the backend API for issuance meaning like you've got you know let's say you've got like a gs1 system that that's sitting at the edge of the internet and then behind that gs1 system in your own security domain you've got a verifiable credential issuing platform the call is going to be purely in your security domain like your.
Manu Sporny: Area of trust so you're just.
Todd Snyder: Yes I believe so yep.
Manu Sporny: The issuer in the issuer based on like some kind of oauth 2 authentication you do with it is going to trust you and it's going to just issue a credential with whatever you say it should issue so for the VC API test Suite specifically let me make sure we're talking about the same thing API it's it's the issue here it's this one the issuer test Suite okay got this one does not require Challenger domain to.
Manu Sporny: Be sent in the.
Manu Sporny: That's right exactly.
Todd Snyder: Got yoga but you do want to do did authorization that's where you would expect to get these in and then you would do a sounds like basically would verify who's calling you then that you were expecting them to call you okay.
Manu Sporny: Yep you got it yep and that happens more in the in the exchanges stuff so if you look at you see API this is still in there let me check to make sure if we look at this it the exchanges and points that's where you would expect there to be some kind of did auth so the second you initiate an exchange.
Manu Sporny: The Who.
Manu Sporny: Thing with like the verifier would sorry the verifier would respond with this so if you're like I want let's say you're the let's say you're the verifier Todd and I'm someone connecting to you when I want to initiate an exchange with you I'll post to some endpoint of yours that you've given me out of band and you would respond back with this like I need you to did authenticate and then I would respond back with.
Todd Snyder: Gotcha I think I'm understood okay so somewhere how you know off them flow most Works you're gonna pass be something I'm looking for and I'm going to respond back with yes I know it's you have access.
Manu Sporny: You got it yep yep in the thing the key thing with the exchanges and point here is that you can go back and forth any number of times so like you can say like I can hit you know I can hit your endpoint and you'll say I need you to get off and then I'm like okay here you go here's a DOT and then you can respond back with either like here's your verifiable credential or you can respond back with oh well now I need you to prove to me.
Manu Sporny: Me that you're you know.
Manu Sporny: Your business location is within the United States right and then I give you back a credential I present a credential back to you that says this is my business and it exists in the United States and then and then we can go back and forth with the exchanges stuff like that.
Todd Snyder: Okay yeah this was off because in the Swagger documentation it shows us for the issuer and the verifier endpoints the 3D have these options so.
Manu Sporny: They do have the options you do not need to provide them at all times yeah there's only when you're like engaged in a in exchange of some kind where you need to challenge the client or need to provide a challenge to the client only at that point do you need to use those options.
Manu Sporny: I hope that made sense.
Todd Snyder: Yeah I might have more questions later but I think a get some clarity what we were looking at them.
Manu Sporny: And we'll have a wheel have a did authentication test Suite soonish that uses those parameters.
Todd Snyder: I've got to keep my radar too.
Manu Sporny: Okay yep okay did that answer your question.
Todd Snyder: Yeah I think it did thank you is posing questions through the GitHub repo the best way to communicate.
Todd Snyder: Yeah understood engine so I just have one other quick question you can probably put in the right direction there's also a signature sweet test Suite.

Topic: Signature Suites

Manu Sporny: And these calls are probably the best way to get a get an answer and when we meet we meet you know weekly the you know we're all chill we're all time challenge these days and so yeah yep.
Manu Sporny: Yes yeah yeah.
Todd Snyder: I was trying to get that up to working this morning and then I noticed something that you guys always that you work with did Keys is that correct for that test we occur we're just trying to figure out if that was something we have to look at now either okay.
Manu Sporny: Yeah so there to that you should probably pay attention to the let me let's see Edie unfortunately this is not let me be here we go so there are two test Suites this one is a test Suite that I mean it's just you know digit bizarre implementing it right now we know that we actually there a couple of others that actually pass this test Suite we just haven't added them yet.
Manu Sporny: Oh I'm sorry now this is the.
Manu Sporny: Sorry this is this is the new one so this is there's a new new one this is the thing that is being standardized in the VC working group so that this is the new one that basically hardly hit I don't think anyone's there are a lot of people that have implemented this one the Ed to 5519 one is the older one and this one has you know multiple implementers.
Manu Sporny: Is there the.
<manu_sporny> "Ed25519Signature2020" --
Manu Sporny: In both of them this the signature format is exactly the same except for the type and the crypto sweet label if you're so this this was sorry D and S sure 2020 this one that I just put in the chat Channel that's the one that's been deployed across the u.s. for the true age program and this things in production right so this one's not going to go anywhere it's safe to it.
Manu Sporny: Implement it it will be outlined in the.
Manu Sporny: Respect for a tedious a but if you're doing something that's a little more future facing you may want to move to the crypto Suite based mechanism there they're really the implementation for them are like really close except for like two if statements basically.
Manu Sporny: So if you implement one the chances that you can implement the other super high.
Todd Snyder: Got you could furnish thank you.

Topic: Pull Requests

Manu Sporny: Okay no problem alright let's go ahead and jump into pull request next quests here are our pull requests I have not had a chance to look at these we do have the renamed app to coordinator that thing just needs to be merged in haven't been able to do that yet there was 309.
Manu Sporny: APR 22 the exchanges and point we don't really need to go.
Manu Sporny: This might be a typo that's being fixed so we'll have to look into that but it looks like you know a typo that's that's being fixed going back.
Manu Sporny: Let's see serve index in docs is Andrew here today let's see Andrew okay so this is just upgrades to the documentation to help people understand how they can actually develop on the specification so it looks like Andrews added a HTTP server serving cores so that you can do just doing it.
Manu Sporny: Npm install and do.
Manu Sporny: API development so that one's looking good that's 312 go ahead and get this in there.
Manu Sporny: This is one of the things that we talked about last week which is implementing a verifiable credential object container so it all of our top level objects we made a decision a while ago to make sure that they were container objects like if it was a presentation it shouldn't be a raw presentation verifiable presentation at the top level you should have a property named verifiable presentation and you should put the.
Manu Sporny: They're same thing with verifiable credential we did that largely so that you could also pass and things like options you could provide metadata and do all sorts of things like that Andrew here has raised a PR to make sure that that applies to this this endpoint.
Manu Sporny: Yeah so just adjust to this end point here when you issue a issue a credential in the response you get back a verifiable credential that was a bug that is now or would be fixed by that PR same fix for believe 314 although he's saying this is a draft not ready for review but it's basically making the same.
Manu Sporny: Change here to make sure that there is a verifiable presentation response like that when you get a verifiable presentation back from the API it's encapsulated in a verifiable presentation property so he's implementing the fix we talked about last week and then let's see adding a 404 not found to.
Manu Sporny: This needs by shedding I guess but this is replacing the put with a post this is something we talked about last week where it didn't make sense to put data here you're really posting data to an exchange transaction ID and then Andrews adding a 404 for not being able to find a transaction or sorry an exchange with a particular transaction ID I'm sorry Paul I totally missed the.
Manu Sporny: That you were on the Q was.
Manu Sporny: I don't know Q.
PaulDietrich_GS1: Oh yeah that was from earlier but I think mono have to drop off so I'll try to reach out to you it was a question on the exchange interface but also reach out to at a different time.
Manu Sporny: Gosh I'm really sorry about that totally did not see on the queue.
Manu Sporny: All right and so those are all the polls remember our process it's typically seven days of review we'd like to see multiple reviewers on these and then after seven days if there are no objections and you know change suggestions have been made will merge those things into the specification any questions concerns about existing pull requests.

Topic: Challenge management in the VC API

Manu Sporny: Okay if not we can pick up the conversation we started last week again so we were talking about challenge Management in the verifiable credential API in the conversation was just picking up when we had to basically end the call so we're going to pick up the conversation where we were last week would anyone like to kind of summarize.
Manu Sporny: Where we.
Manu Sporny: I can try here.
Manu Sporny: So let me let me give it a shot.
Manu Sporny: There was a question from Dmitri about how we're implementing challenges so Todd this was the initial question you had with this is freshly discussed in the group on you know how challenges and domains are being implemented there was disagreement on where the API endpoint should go there was one suggestion or there was a suggestion.
Manu Sporny: Bring up the diagram here.
Manu Sporny: So there was a suggestion that the the challenge creation and point so the thing that like creates challenges and tracks challenges might need to go on the verifier controller which is this diamond nor the app we're changing that to control our verifier controller or it needs to go on the verifier service the argument for putting on on the app is hey challenges our business logic.
Manu Sporny: In that's where they really should go.
<joe_andrieu> /s/controller/coordinator/g
Manu Sporny: Um versus they should go on the verifier service because it's something that's common to many different applications and so it should be kind of this generalized thing and I believe we went kind of back and forth on that and didn't really get to a resolution so let's go ahead and thank you Joe coordinator let's go ahead and pick up.
Manu Sporny: Up that discussion.
Manu Sporny: Go ahead only.
Dave Longley: Yeah another thing I would add to the argument for putting this on the verifier services that challenges in particular are there are a number of ways to get checking for Replay MAX wrong especially in Partition systems are very common in back in implementations these days and so you want to make sure that the system that's checking the proof makes.
Dave Longley: We also checks.
Dave Longley: Challenge hasn't been reused or tracks how many reuses how many times the challenge challenge has been reused and so keeping that that tightly coupled to where the verification is happening makes it less likely for mistakes to be made and it makes it easier on people who are writing applications if you give them this feature for them to to use as you know obviously any application can implement.
Dave Longley: Isn't this feature.
Dave Longley: However they want to but providing it in the service because it's very commonly needed for effectively always needed for any kind of authentication I think that's very valuable.
Joe Andrieu: Yeah I think just that echo my no time last time is it sounds like these are primarily business rules validating how this challenge is to be used or maintained and it seems like it's very strange for the verifier to Outsource their relationship with the holder through the verifier so.
Joe Andrieu: It seems like a.
Joe Andrieu: Using the verifier to manage the state's for which you as a issuer I'm sorry verifier coordinator have to maintain anyway so it feels like a weird layer violation to me still.
Dave Longley: So a couple of points in response to that I'll try to talk slowly seat since I see you're typing on you so a couple of things were in there the the first was that it feels strange to verify to Outsource the relationship to the verifier service I don't feel that way I think we're you know we're whenever a holder provides a presentation to the coordinator they turn around and Outsource it to.
Dave Longley: The verifier.
Dave Longley: That helps them it gives them a tool to help them verify presentations and part of verifying a presentation that has a proof on it is making sure that the challenge is either not reused or not reused a number of times that would come into conflict with business rules and so the way I see it is you can make a call to this other system to manage your challenge your challenge state for you and that system can report back to you when you.
Dave Longley: Ask it to verify.
Dave Longley: And how many times that challenge has been reused and then it's a business decision to whether or not to reject that presentation based on the number of times the challenge has been reused and I would also say that there was a second point in there that Joe made about having to manage the state anyway I don't think you have to manage the state anyway if you have a call on the verifier service to generate a challenge then your application can make that call get a challenge and put it in a verifiable.
Dave Longley: Into the holder the holder turns around and sends the presentation back which they then the coordinator then sends to the verifier service and the rare fire service reports back whether or not that challenge has been reused and it creates a clean abstraction boundary on Challenger use where the actual coordinator app doesn't care what the challenges are so they don't have to maintain that state they just want to know whether or not a challenge has been reused and is how it is a timely challenge.
Joe Andrieu: Okay I'm by the way having a kick so it's piling up over there.
Manu Sporny: I'm having a I'm having a hard time switching windows.
Joe Andrieu: Well I agree that their business rules so I think we're on the same page there I think the my challenge is that the business rules should be driven by the coordinator and so it's a coordinator the one driving this I don't understand how unless the coordinator is giving VCS to everyone who shows up whatsoever unless they're doing that then they are going to have to manage State between the current session and.
Joe Andrieu: Whoever they think the current session is associated.
Joe Andrieu: So that's why I'm saying they have to manage State unless they're letting everyone through and therefore there are no business rules which is itself a business rule and hence I think they are managing State no matter what.
Dave Longley: If no one else is on the Queue managing State I think in that statement is a little too overly broad there will be services that won't manage State generally at all but there will other there will also be applications services that do manage state but I think specifically we're talking here about the challenge State and I think with what I just described before they don't have to manage that state.
Dave Longley: Eight and managing that state.
Dave Longley: The a more challenging thing for them to do given the comments I made earlier about ensuring atomicity with the the proofs and whatever we can do to make it so that there's less state for any particular party to have to manage and get right and get right around security I think is of Great Value to the applications that are looking to Outsource features.
Dave Longley: You know to put to you.
Dave Longley: A of or service at least to provide common features to get them to help them issue and verify feces.
Joe Andrieu: Yeah I work necklace others involvement.
Manu Sporny: Go ahead Joe and I and we're going to take a pause because this is just going back and forth between Joe and Dave any yeah.
Joe Andrieu: Not sure why the coordinator managing challenge state would deny atomicity if the verifier is going to check that which is a different debate then there's no reason that the coordinator can't provide that information at the same point so you can have an atomic check all of the business validation rules are expected to be in some notion Atomic right either you pass the.
Joe Andrieu: Business rules or you.
Joe Andrieu: Out and in some cases I guess you could construct Spectrum but nobody's really talk about modeling anything like that.
Joe Andrieu: But with that I agree we should wrap up.
Manu Sporny: Dimitri go ahead.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Well I want to give the impression that Joe and Dave are the only ones getting with this issue like I also care very strongly about this issue it's calm about as a result of implementation implementation experience both on my end and on digital bazaars I see that almost every single implementer is will need a challenge management mechanism like this and so there's no reason not to put it in this bag because the same for all.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Like all use cases.
Manu Sporny: Are there other implementers on the call that are need or believe they need a generalized challenge management mechanism in the API or are there anyone is there anyone on the call that's like I definitely do not.
Manu Sporny: It's a good idea.
Manu Sporny: All right so where do we go from here there doesn't seem to be a lot of feedback implementers can decide to implement this how are they feel like you know they can implement it wherever they want to I guess the question is Joe would you object to this end point being defined but.
Manu Sporny: Mean like not.
Manu Sporny: It goes I don't know if that's like it could go on the controller it could go on the service I'm trying to figure.
Manu Sporny: As I'm going to be I'm gonna do what Chris round did for like five years and keep calling it verifiable claims and thank you Joe coordinator it could go on the coordinator it could go on the service well I guess would anyone object if we defined what this API looks like and where it goes we kind of leave that vague for now.
Joe Andrieu: I'd actually go the other way I mean I think if it's on the coordinator I have a different opinion about it.
Joe Andrieu: My opinion is coordinators where it belongs it shouldn't be on the service.
Joe Andrieu: Where is Dave it makes sense on the service.
Manu Sporny: Yeah and we've got it's a gotcha yeah and I think we've got disagreement on that so hold on so do we have consensus that like this is a useful thing to have it's just we're disagreeing on does it go on the coordinator or does it go in the service.
Joe Andrieu: Well the the.
Joe Andrieu: It's it is a useful function to Define for people to implement it's not clear that it needs to be exposed as a service to be provided by anybody.
Joe Andrieu: Right well we're talking about our interfaces between different services.
Manu Sporny: Okay Dave you're on the queue.
Dave Longley: I went on the Queue to say I think it because of the atomicity issues it definitely belongs in the verifier service.
<dmitri_zagidulin> I agree. (that it belongs on verifier service)
Dave Longley: But that's all.
Manu Sporny: In the meter you're saying it belongs on the verifier Service as well or the coordinator.
Manu Sporny: Joe would I guess that's the I'm wondering I'm trying to avoid asking the same question we Define this and not say where it goes or you're safe it's defined we have to specify or where it goes and it has to be on the coordinator.
<dave_longley> coordinator :)
<manu_sporny> *shakes fist at his own brain*
Joe Andrieu: Well I'm saying specifying it without specifying where it goes I think would not help us if if we can specify it more clearly that may help get more feedback about this issue.
Manu Sporny: Sorry I missed the last thing you said the last couple of words.
Joe Andrieu: If we explain that this this is something that's on the service and this is the API and this is the response like I don't think that's written up in a way that we can be concrete about spec text.
Joe Andrieu: And maybe if we have spec text then we can get better engagement on the issue.
Manu Sporny: So you're saying you're saying Bray's a PR to put this on the server surf service and then we'll discuss it then okay all right.
Joe Andrieu: I mean I know that's putting me in a distant bed just this advantageous state if I just want to oppose this but that's not my point my point is we need better conversation.
Dave Longley: +1 To Joe being open and if he can convince me it's a terrible idea i won't support it :)
Manu Sporny: Okay alright thank you for being open to that Joe noted that we that having a PR might help move things forward next steps are to raise a PR to place the endpoint on the verifier service understanding that there is no.
Manu Sporny: On strong consensus on placing it are the pr is just being raised so we can have a detailed conversation okay great good so at least we got ourselves to writing a PR Mark that ready for PR.

Topic: Test for issue with default issuer provided

Manu Sporny: And yep again thank you Joe for being open to at least trying it out in a PR and seeing seeing where the discussion takes us next item up is test for issue with default issuer provided.
Manu Sporny: Okay so or is saying there should be a test for to issue a credential with the default issue or provided this was when we were actually providing who the issue should be for the end point I don't think we do that anymore I think we assume the endpoints have issuers pre-configured on them.
Manu Sporny: It's arguable that the tests are done elsewhere.
Manu Sporny: What do we want to do with this issue I I forget are you allowed to specify the issuer.
Manu Sporny: Go ahead only.
Dave Longley: I don't know if we ever came to a decision here but the direction we had it in was that issuer instances would already have the issuer field specified and and then what was open to discussion was whether it was okay to include an issuer field when submitting something and it had to match what was configured otherwise it.
Dave Longley: Would produce an error.
Dave Longley: Or if we should just produce an error if you provide anything at all no matter whether it passes the weather whether it matches or not.
Dave Longley: Don't know if we ever decided between those two options.
Manu Sporny: Well the other option is that you could people didn't have to follow that model they could just.
Manu Sporny: Switch up the issuer as they felt.
Dave Longley: Yeah that that sure we could document that but that is just I think that's a foot gun that's it doesn't it doesn't have any value because the whatever keys or capabilities to use keys are configured with the issuing instance the controller of those keys doesn't change so if you go change whatever the issue is.
Dave Longley: You're probably just going to end up with something that's broken and so we should probably make it so that you can't do that.
Dave Longley: I think really the the other point I'll make here is the only reason we allowed we originally allowed people to say what the issue or was was when we were still building this API around a test Suite instead of around actual use cases.
Dave Longley: So we wanted it to be easy to just hit the same instance and give it all the parameters you wanted and just assume that it has access to all the keys that it could possibly need or you know whatever test keys were built with the sweet test Suite all that kind of stuff but that doesn't match real-world use cases for it.
Manu Sporny: So yeah so we're we were creating the VC API to achieve a test Suite not to actually operate on these cases okay any other thoughts on this should we allow people to include a nature option in say it must be ignored do we stay silent on it do we say allowing the specification of issue or is a foot gun don't do it.
Dmitri Zagidulin: +1 To footgun argument.
Manu Sporny: Go ahead Brian.
Brian Richter: Yeah I'm just looking at the traceability.
Brian Richter: What they're doing and it looks like they've removed it I think that's a reading around.
Manu Sporny: Okay that's interesting is there anyone from Trace here well mood let's see what mood Paul Todd I don't know how often you guys are on the trace calls.
PaulDietrich_GS1: I've been on mono but I'm not following that issue that carefully.
Manu Sporny: Okay all right thanks um how about this let's The Proposal is to disallow the setting of issuer of options that issuer if it is included is ignored do we want to throw an error just excellent.
Manu Sporny: We ignore.
Manu Sporny: Probably throw in there.
Dave Longley: Yeah we should throw an error and I don't know if it's options that issuer this might I don't remember where this might be that you're supposed to omit it from the VC that front or from the credential that you were submitting yep so it's not in the options field you would just admitted it in the credential that you're submitting and I do think it would be a lot easier for systems to just have a schema that looks for that a Json schema for example rather than Andrew.
Dave Longley: Having to go look up things and and check the value.
Manu Sporny: All right so why don't understand how credential how would you match against the it has to match the issue or that you have.
Dave Longley: It's probably the case that most implementations will have that information in memory so it could check that immediately but I don't want to make assumptions about maybe fancy ways people could optimize that away so it's probably better to just make it so that you are not allowed to submit to include that field.
Manu Sporny: It included so if you set the issuer field.
Dave Longley: Yeah you should get an error.
Manu Sporny: Okay this is a trick to to any value it is assumed that the issuer in point will fill that value in the issuer and point will fill that value in when it is issuing well luckily there is that what we're.
Manu Sporny: We need to make sure that this won't conflict with what the phrase bility ABI is doing well.
Manu Sporny: If there are no objections we should raise a PR that states that an error must be thrown if issuer is set calling the.
Manu Sporny: A in the points.
Manu Sporny: That an air Rays appear that states that in there must be thrown if you sure if and chilled on the issuer calling nature and point.
Manu Sporny: Okay so this is this ready for PR is there anyone on the Queue that would disagree with this any objections basically raising an error if you try to set the issuer it's the endpoint that should set the issuer and it should be configured to set the proper value there.
PaulDietrich_GS1: Why does that mean this thing is not a verifiable credential or credential at all at that point.
Manu Sporny: Not a it's not a verifiable credential at that point.
PaulDietrich_GS1: Or even a credential according to the data model that has no issuer.
PaulDietrich_GS1: That seems a little odd.
Manu Sporny: Yeah that's what I was trying to thing I don't know if we really don't know if we really.
Manu Sporny: And this let's see what do we see what do we say about issuer a verifiable credential must have an issue or property we don't say anything about a credential.
Manu Sporny: It sure if I was so determined to try so it's compliant to the spec right because we don't say a credential must have an issue or property.
Manu Sporny: I mean you know I'm I'm spec lawyer in right now so it's technically true I don't know if that's a good thing or not.
Manu Sporny: Yeah I'm not seeing anything that says a credential has to have insured property.
Joe Andrieu: I need to I need to.
Joe Andrieu: A credential doesn't need a proof at all but a verifiable credential does.
Manu Sporny: Are you saying that in support of the you don't really need an issuer on a credential until it's verifiable.
Joe Andrieu: Correct because issuers on the proof.
Joe Andrieu: Is there is a state and there are use cases or we could say hey this is a credential not a verifiable credential it's just we haven't found many use cases where formalizing that was important.
TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_( Are we saying sorry.
Manu Sporny: That's right and what you're sending to the issuer endpoint is a credential it's not a verify it's not a verifiable credential until it's issued so I think the logic hangs together Paul does that well I was going to ask Paul if that worked for him and then we'll go to you Ted.
PaulDietrich_GS1: Yeah that's fine by me I think as long as it's a credential and still meets the specification that it's fine to say that that field can't be there.
PaulDietrich_GS1: Don't know if it says approved field can't be there but that kind of would go along with this I would think.
Joe Andrieu: I'm also not sure if we have the type updated if we defined a tight for a credential.
Joe Andrieu: As opposed to type for a verifiable credential which I'm sure we have defined in the context.
Manu Sporny: Pl we don't attend you were going to mention.
TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_( Yeah I think we did at some point somewhere Define credential differently than verifiable credential yes but my speaking up was are we saying that an issuer endpoint.
TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_( Can only serve verifiable credentials from a single issuer.
TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_( Sort of thinking of.
Manu Sporny: We're saying an instance.
TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_( Don't make multiple entities behind the thing right and if you want to request that the VC that you're going to get you from one of those issuers that this endpoint is handling.
Manu Sporny: It's an important question I just noted that we're two minutes overtime and we should answer that at some point Dave go ahead.
Dave Longley: Yeah real quick I think you have different instances different endpoints you would hit to get different issuers but in that light I think we just all so I also just realized the use case at this is problematic for which is where you want to put use the same issuer and put two different proofs on the same VC and so we might not want to do this we might want to say you have to make sure that the issuer field matches and that's a good that is a use case where.
Dave Longley: You sign with signature type A create proof.
Dave Longley: And then you turn around and send the thing back to get to another place to get proofed IB.
Manu Sporny: We're at a time like this we need to pick this up next week and that's it for the call today thanks everyone for the good conversation will chat again next week ciao.