The W3C Credentials Community Group

Meeting Transcriptions and Audio Recordings (2014-today)

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W3C CCG Weekly Teleconference

Transcript for 2023-01-10

Our Robot Overlords are scribing.
Kimberly Linson: Great all right well I am very excited about today we have Sharon Leu and Kerri Lemoie coming to talk to us about the plugfest many of you were involved in the plugfest I was involved in the plugfest in fact it was for me having been involved with the first one and the second one I can't even begin to describe how much I learned through that process and in addition to really deepening my.
Kimberly Linson: Technology understanding it also really helped me to see how this ecosystem is forming and I think that the the plugfest concept and the way that we have been working through these is really is really driving the work forward and so I'm really excited to have them here today to talk about what happened at this last plugfest but also I think maybe even more importantly talk about what is coming and how we as a community might support.
Kimberly Linson: These efforts as we look towards.
Kimberly Linson: The next versions of these plugfest so let me just pull up.
Kimberly Linson: The agenda to run through some of the housekeeping definitely this is I think one of the things that I loved about my participation in the plugfest was the collaborative nature and spirit of the work that was being conducted and so a quick reminder that we all follow the code of ethics and professional conduct we definitely want anyone who is interested to participate in these calls but definitely if you're giving any substantial.
Kimberly Linson: Substantive contributions.
Kimberly Linson: You should be a member of the of the ccg with default IPR agreements and the links to those can be found in the agenda.
Kimberly Linson: We use meeting minutes and call an audio recording of the of the meetings we will take speakers in a queue so if you're interested in asking a question or making a comment please use Q+ to add yourself to the queue that's going to be my job today is to kind of moderate that that is I know we're going to have what I'm hoping is going to be really great conversation today and that brings us to introductions and reintroductions.
Kimberly Linson: Does anyone have would like.
Kimberly Linson: To introduce themselves to the community.
Kimberly Linson: Or is there anyone who has not had an opportunity to join us for a while that would like to let us know what they've been up to.
Alex_Tweeddale: Hey this is Alex Tweeddale here I haven't joined one of these for a while and just wanted to say hey myself Ankur and my colleague Rosa on because we heard there was a lot of debate in the last ccg call around the proposed work link item on did linked resources so if there's time after the presentation today that topic we're also happy to answer any questions on that.
Kimberly Linson: Great I'm really glad you're here thanks Alex.
Kimberly Linson: Would anyone else like to introduce themselves or reintroduce themselves.
Ankur_Banerjee: Hi, this is Ankur Banerjee um also I think I have not joined some of these for a while I’m one of Alex’s colleagues there is a lot of really interesting discussions that we’ve obviously had with a lot of people on the spec for did linked resources I think there’s been a fair amount of back and forth and contributions from many people we appreciate that and so yeah very happy to chat that through if that’s on the agenda or obviously contribute in any else way that I can I think I’ve seen a lot of the faces on here perhaps in person as well so that’s good
<simone_ravaioli_(vc_edu)> Great to find you back here Ankur !
Kimberly Linson: How about announcements and reminders anybody have anything they want to share.
Kaliya Young: Hey there we’ve got the APAC digital identity unconference coming up March 1 to 3 if you have if you want to come from all over the world we welcome you but particularly if you have staff based in that region this is a great opportunity to meet with other folks.
Kaliya Young: Who are based in the region working on decentralized and digital identity generally so we encourage you to come and like similar to how we are do things at IIW were really committed to accessibility so if you can't if our pricing is a barrier please reach out we can work with you and.
Kaliya Young: I'll also name.
Kaliya Young: The thoughtful Biometrics Workshop got moved to mid-march its March 13 to 17 and folks who are working on digital identity and want to understand Biometrics better I'd invite you and then regular iiw is April 18th to 20th and I'll put links for all that in the chat thank you.
Kimberly Linson: Right thank you Marty.
Marty Reed: So just two quick announcements one The Wanted Tech CLR 2.0 spec with the ver that's verifiable credential compatible was for was made public today so I sent the.
Marty Reed: Link out to their mailing list but I wanted to mention it here because it's a big deal we've been working hard on this multi assertion verifiable credential format and then also Ian Davidson with smart resume put out a smart report ecosystem map that is pretty cool and really insightful so just those two notes.
Kimberly Linson: Great and thank you I was going to ask if you could put the link in but somebody already did it thank you I think Manu I think you were on the queue.
<manu_sporny> VC Status List 2021 transition to VCWG:
Manu Sporny: Yep thanks three announcements the first one is just closing the loop on VC status list 2021 so that was a work item that started in the credentials community group it has now transitioned to the verifiable credentials working group as an official Global standards track deliverable there is a link.
Manu Sporny: In IRC sorry in the chat.
Manu Sporny: Channel that just kind of links to where it lives now so there's just a heads up the folks that were wondering about it or using it in their implementations it is definitely headed standards track now expected to be potentially done as a global standard in 18 months hopefully sooner than that so we're probably going to be really looking for implementations we have a test Suite already we've got.
Manu Sporny: Some implementations but.
Manu Sporny: We'll be looking for more in about six months and then we'll want to really nail everything down in about a year which sounds like it's far off in the distance but it is definitely not it'll come up on us pretty quickly so that's VC status list the next item is that there is a verifiable credentials working group face-to-face meeting that's happening in February.
Manu Sporny: February mid-February.
Manu Sporny: I believe it's three days it's in Miami in the United States you typically need to be a working group member to attend those meetings but it is the chairs’ discretion to allow observers and other people to attend those meetings so if you're interested you know an email to the mailing list or an email to the chairs you know we'll get you started there.
Manu Sporny: The third announcement is that we are gathering kind of signatures of support for the EDD DSA crypto suite to move that into the verifiable credentials working group just like we did for status list 2021 there are 20 plus issuing platforms that participated in the plugfest that did implement it and.
Manu Sporny: So we'll be reaching out to.
Manu Sporny: Those folks in JFF plugfest too as well as other implementers in the ecosystem to put your name down as you know supportive of that crypto suite going standards track so look out for that either this week or next week if you're an implementer that's it.
Kimberly Linson: Great thank you thank you all those are some exciting announcements.
Kerri Lemoie: +1 @Manu
Kimberly Linson: All right well I want us to have as much time as we need for conversation around the kind of work that the plugfest is pushing forward so it's my pleasure to turn the stage over to Kerri and Sharon I feel like you know they don't need an introduction because looking down the list of names everybody I think is familiar with them but I just do want to say that I think you know Kerry has been in.
Kimberly Linson: In been thinking about credentials.
Kimberly Linson: For a very long time and I know for me has been just a source of education and knowledge and I really appreciate what she does both for the VC edu working group but also the collaboration that she's done for us and then also Sharon is the executive what is it executive in Residence at jobs for the future and I think is really a practical visionary.
Kimberly Linson: Leader for how these.
Anil John: No introduction needed, because they are "practical visionary leaders" << +1
Kimberly Linson: Kinds of credentials are going to get used in in the wild and so I think together and along with all the other folks that I know are working behind the scenes to pull off these plug fests are really driving this work forward and I'm so excited to hear from them so the stage is all yours ladies.
<kerri_lemoie> Thanks, @kimberly!
Sharon Leu: Thank you Kimberly is it possible for me to share slides I'm going to try and we'll see and we'll see what happens I have to change my system settings but while I do that I guess one of the things that I wanted to say is I don't know I can't don't remember my system password okay so thank you all for joining us the goal here is for us to get to the discussion as quickly as possible.
Sharon Leu: We do have some slides that will give a general overview which I think I'm not going to share my screen because I can't change my settings the best and to get to some of the discussion questions at the end do you mind going to the next slide so by just way of a quick introduction jobs for the future is sponsoring this series of plug fest with support from the Walmart foundation and we are a not-for-profit organization that really wants to.
Sharon Leu: To see economic advancement happen for all people and.
Sharon Leu: If you go to the next slide please our key way of one of the key questions that we have is how can credentials be sort of the link that enables this to happen and I wanted to say this upfront not just you know for the Shameless plug purposes for jff but to give you a sense for the series of plugfest and how they're really just very use case driven and so as we talk about the observations that we’ll make and some of the questions that we have.
Sharon Leu: As we plan the next one just keep in mind.
Sharon Leu: Our context for this is how can we be driving this type of result and if you go to the next slide one of the ways that we think that we can do this in the education ecosystem is by creating what we call learning and employment records which are a collection of credentials across a period of time and from a variety of different issuers that individuals can mix and match as they pursue opportunity also known in this community as a verifiable presentation sort of hoping.
Sharon Leu: Though that foundationally is based.
Sharon Leu: On a series of verifiable credentials that individuals can collect over time so if you go to the next slide you'll see our key objectives not only for the second plugfest but the entire series of plugfest is to really think about the development of a functional learning employment record for individuals and broadening participation in the verifiable credentials Community by bringing in incumbent education and Workforce Solution providers who don't necessarily.
Sharon Leu: Understand or participate.
Sharon Leu: In this and hence create a lot of very close ecosystems for different types of education and Workforce related records but as well bring some of these Solutions some of you who have a lot of experience working with verifiable credentials in some of these interoperable data models to a return feedback to some of the education standards development processes so if you look at the next slide it's just our general road map to where we were and where we're going we started these.
Sharon Leu: Off in June.
Sharon Leu: With a very simple exercise I think Marty called it our hello world exercise where the request was display a functioning verifiable credential in a digital wallet we moved in November and this is what we'll be talking about today to issuing verifiable credentials into wallets and coming this year will want to talk about export and presentation the details of it we can discuss later on in this presentation timeline is hopefully.
Sharon Leu: In this next month or so.
Sharon Leu: I guess beginning with today's call beginning to collect feedback on what are some of the key areas that we can be using as our technical demonstration and bringing in the correct partners for work beginning in the first quarter so I don't know Kerri do you want to take it over and start talking about some of our sort of technical requirements and some things that we did.
Kerri Lemoie: Hi everyone um on slide 7 we are we talk about the approach that we took and the requirement was for issuers to be able to issue to two wallets and for if you're there issue are issuing credentials and if their wallets to be able to accept verifiable credentials from two different issuers and we we the timing for this actually coincided through a lot of effort went to Tech and then.
Kerri Lemoie: The members of the working group with their candidate final release.
Kerri Lemoie: Of open badges 3.0 so in plugfest one where we were sort of using a temporary version that we set up for the plugfest for the plugfest two we’re actually able to use open badges 3.0 and so we required a display of a the fields you see on the sides and that they verifiable according to the open Badge’s schema and that the issuers is a while to be able to demonstrate that to us through a demonstration like a video requirement.
Kerri Lemoie: I think that does that cover it Sharon you think I'm missing anything there.
Sharon Leu: Nope that's right would you get to the next slide please okay.
Kerri Lemoie: Yes I will yes oh sorry one other thing I didn't mention this Sharon I'm sorry is that we did this through a we require three different protocols that we were did this through either VC API also using CHAPI in some cases did comm and OIDC so issuers as well as how to use one of those three protocols which are the three protocols.
Sharon Leu: That's right so I guess let's go to the next Slide the one thing I said that I will say is we did in doing all of these require that did authentication happen in some capacity or another and so overall we had quite a lot of interest here is sort of just the overlay of who participated and who selected how many people selected which protocols we were not prescriptive will allowed individuals to self-select and in fact there are a number of people who selected.
Sharon Leu: To like who attempted.
Sharon Leu: Multiple protocols as well as participants in this community who jumped in without officially joining our cohort and letting us know which we thought was really exciting okay Kerri do you want to review some of other people's slides that show some great results.
Kerri Lemoie: Sure if you go to slide 11 and Manu’s here who actually we took this side from Manu’s presentation so Manu feel free to jump in and fill in any gaps where I'm leaving out with quite a few of our participants opted to use CHAPI with VC API which we found to be excellent because it made it really easy for new issuers and new wallets to get on board many of.
Kerri Lemoie: Them using at the playground that a digital promise set up .
Kerri Lemoie: At and you see from the slide that there were 81 different combinations that are demonstrated some which were you hit the requirements of your to issuers to wallets but then some who went well beyond that you can see that several when hit almost all of the wallets right I ran different students went through almost all I think all of the wallets here so we had some that also I did of course they all did auth that was required.
Kerri Lemoie: So they did that over chapi and then.
Kerri Lemoie: And then several implemented their issuers with chapi to with the playground and are still are still there I believe Manu do you want to fill in any gaps there that I left.
Manu Sporny: No that that was great I think one one thing to note is we're probably going to well it depending on what the goals are for the next plugfest we're probably going to provide the same kind of infrastructure if possible and so the hope is to kind of build on the people that are already in there one of the really neat things that has happened after the plugfest is that all these issuers are still in the chapi playgound.
Manu Sporny: Meaning like you can still use them to do issuance and we think that's a really good kind of side effect of the plugfest is that it got all these other issuing platforms kind of there on a more permanent basis so that you can switch between different credentials the hope is that you know we’ll be able to do that across different Industries like you know there are a lot of education-based issuers there right now along with the the other ones that have existed there.
Manu Sporny: From like the SVIP program.
Manu Sporny: But you know as we add new types of credentials like there's that movie take a credential and and maybe some other Workforce skills credentials all those other issuers should be able to continue to kind of issue you know using the the playground so it feels like it could potentially grow into a really good kind of broad Community tool that can be used across Market verticals that's it.
Kerri Lemoie: Yeah it's great thank you manu um one thing we did mention at the beginning was that we provide provided a model to sort of example open badge that folks could use and and on the playground is that example badge that can be issued so many of you could go and try that right now actually.
Kerri Lemoie: Next slide please um our next group was the OIDC group which was our second largest group and what we loved about this group was that they all work together very closely in a similar way as the chapi folks did issuing to each other and and figure out how to use oidcwith with verifiable credentials and open badges which are doesn't presented its own challenges and that they overcame and were able to demonstrate this too.
Kerri Lemoie: Is there anybody here from the OIDC Group that would like to.
Kerri Lemoie: Speak to that.
Kerri Lemoie: I would call on David Chadwick because he was one of our.
Kerri Lemoie: Leaders in this group I don't see him on here though.
Kerri Lemoie: Sharon do you have anything else to add about OIDC or Dmitri and Simone I should also call and who are co-chairs at VC Edu who are instrumental in helping all of this happen.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Decided that especially with.
Dmitri Zagidulin: OIDC he was very helpful to the development of the DC S 0 because as always imagined limitations and actual tests running it highlights rough Corners that need to be sanded off so I think the oh I also see Simone is on the queue so yeah just gonna say that it was very helpful to respect that.
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): I think there is also a set of interesting positive externalities that have happened as a result of the plugfest one being the interesting collaboration across the standard development organizations like w3c and one ed tech or other players in the ecosystem nonspecifically in the education domain that Leverage The tooling made available by the.
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): the VC API team.
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): And a few others that.
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): We’re really encouraging in terms of moving forward with this process and that really spoke to the function of this plugfest as a bridge in building out this very diverse ecosystem that we're all working into back to you Kerri.
Kerri Lemoie: Thank you Simone exactly the last group that we have is the didcomm Group which was the smallest of the groups and I'm going to actually put a link copy and paste that link to that presentation that is there on that page you may find this really interesting to look at if you are student didcomm because this was really one of the first times didcomm was being used in this way so this group had a lot of hurdles but I think they accomplished quite a bit and work together to.
Kerri Lemoie: To demonstrate what is needed like what more is needed to issue.
Kerri Lemoie: Verifiable credentials and I think you might find this presentation really useful in learning more about what work can be done and what help this community needs to move this forward and we're really grateful for that group its work.
<simone_ravaioli_(vc_edu)> a few more "positive externalities" in this short write-up
Sharon Leu: Okay so I know that there's probably some questions but I kind of want to power through to like where we can have some sort of moderated discussion and I'll take that off by just giving some of the observations that I made as a result of this and this these I'm sure that there are broader sort of observations about you know technology and like standards development for example some of the ones that Simone mentions but these go back to did I did you know our investment accomplish the jff goals right.
Sharon Leu: And so I you know some of these observations.
Sharon Leu: Were interesting but sort of lead us to questions for the next time and one of the surprising observation I don't know why I thought this was surprising maybe I'm just too cynical about human nature but you know a lot of this broad technical interoperability was only possible because of Human Relationships and I want to give a shout out shout out especially to this community a lot of the education Workforce incumbents really did benefit from the generosity of your time and your expertise this is.
Sharon Leu: Using VC's is not something.
Sharon Leu: That is sort of native technical ability for a lot of these incumbents and I think they learned a lot from you and as a result of that the education stakeholders like I think students and Learners and workers really do and will benefit from this in the long run and another I think one of the observations about our accomplishments is that the standards development work really does require broad participation it has I think it was a little bit challenging to work with you know the first.
Sharon Leu: Of some verifiable.
Sharon Leu: Credentials native education standards and there are a number of challenges because different standards organizations have different sort of work processes and cultures and varying degrees of openness to feedback and issues but it was an interesting collaboration I think between the group that worked on the one Ed Tech spec there their I think willingness to accept feedback from this community who has a lot of experience working with verifiable credentials think it's really strengthened the obv three.
Sharon Leu: Standard and so I’m.
Sharon Leu: Encouraged by I think some of the results that will happen as a result of that.
Kerri Lemoie: +1 - Thank you for your help with Open Badges 3.0
Sharon Leu: I think that in sort of acknowledging some of the challenges they're like one of the most obvious ones is based on how used all the slides being laid out that the interoperability really occurred within protocol specific groups and even for example within some of the groups there was further divisions that you'd probably saw notice that the oidc group was divided based on proof methods and you know there is a lot of discussion I think that doesn't mean that we are permanently stuck into three.
Sharon Leu: Different slides on a deck but I think that there's definitely.
Sharon Leu: A challenge something additional to think about and what Kerri mentioned about the third group our didcomm group I think what we really showed was that one of the challenges is the development of Community Resources and the more people that participate in these types of activities the more resources like Registries and playgrounds exist and can enable greater amounts of interoperability.
Sharon Leu: I don't know Kerri do you have some.
Sharon Leu: Thoughts on that.
Kerri Lemoie: Yeah actually I just keep myself up but I'll take myself out in a second specifically going back to the community’s help with open badges 3.0 and the work at one edtech open Badges and and comprehensive learning record are new to verifiable credentials initially they were I mean they are date they are linked data and but mostly they've been hosted data sets never used in this way before and it's introduced.
Kerri Lemoie: All sorts of things that were never considered before by the working groups.
Kerri Lemoie: One of the challenges we encountered for instance was the context file changed while while we were working while people are trying to issue did the wallets and it caused a host of problems and it took a lot of work to track that down and big thanks to you know the folks at digital bazaar who helped to like track that down and spend hours and a lot of money really trying to figure that out but in the long run this became so useful to the community at large and.
Kerri Lemoie: To those who will be issuing these credentials so yeah shout out to like open.
Kerri Lemoie: Community development and working together in the open like that really thank you.
Sharon Leu: Were there other comments or questions in the queue.
Manu Sporny: Is Simone is an old hand.
Kimberly Linson: I think so.
Manu Sporny: Maybe okay yeah it's so challenges I think one of the challenges is this was a good I mean this is like this is a good challenge right it's like you know what's your what's your greatest weakness we had a lot of people participate in the plugfest like way more than I think many of us were well I'll say way more than I was expecting which was great but the challenge there was communication.
Manu Sporny: I think the the channels that were set up by jff like the slack channels for communication we're really good but I think I noticed there was a lot of kind of one-on-one communication between implementers that happened which was great like if you have you know it's great if you have only like you know like a an organization or is only trying to communicate with like two or three or four organizations but we had a huge end by end you no problem going on there and we and I think what we what we.
Manu Sporny: We realized at least our organization is that.
Manu Sporny: There were some pieces of critical documentation that were just not there and as a result we had you know program managers and Engineers having to effectively repeat themselves over and over and over again on 1 to 1 calls and so we don't even we don't quite know how to address that in plugfest three other than maybe having better documentation ready earlier on and then that of course would require kind of the requirements of.
Manu Sporny: Exactly what are we trying to attempt in plugfest three.
Manu Sporny: To be more clearly delineated early early in the process so I think that that was you know there was a I think there was a bit I mean communication I think was the largest challenge right I mean the technical stuff was hard enough by itself but just keeping that many organizations kind of synced up and moving forward turned out to be a challenge in as Kerri said Community tooling was vitally important to basically community.
Manu Sporny: Tooling and Community documentation was just vital.
Manu Sporny: To kind of keeping everything together that's it.
<kerri_lemoie> One of the resources we used for Plugfest 2:
Marty Reed: Yeah I just want to say I really appreciated the openness of collaboration between all the participants I never really seen that level of openness I think it goes to credit you know jff and and the collaboration with VC edu but nobody was playing I got a secret everybody was trying to get real Integrations done and and that was just really amazing.
Marty Reed: Plugfest three even though a number of us are competitors in one way or another that level of openness got a lot more done a lot faster than it would ever get done in a in a pure standards-based collaboration in my opinion.
Kerri Lemoie: +1 Marty
Kimberly Linson: Thank you anyone else with questions.
Kimberly Linson: All right Sharon.
<manu_sporny> Yeah, the JFF plugfest was way friendlier than what some standards engagements have turned into.
Sharon Leu: Okay so here's like the part where we would love your feedback which is in the context of plugfest 3 what should we do next and actually you know I think too it's something you said Manu like significantly more people were interested in plugfest two than I thought you know would be interested in it and so I'm actually curious because I don't know whether the increased difficulty I guess of.
Sharon Leu: Doing the next plugfest will will.
Sharon Leu: Increase interest of decrease interest or whether you know I just have no idea so this is actually a wild-card for us as far as planning is concerned as well so essentially we have a set of draft objectives and if you go to the next slide you can see what some of them are these are all for discussion purposes we're not like tied to any of them except maybe the first one which is like we've thought about you know issuing holding credentials and now I think the third step for us is thinking about that third leg.
Sharon Leu: Of the data model.
<manu_sporny> huge +1 to this draft objective
Sharon Leu: Which is the verification and it like needs to be for in my mind for us to be successful more than just a bunch of people who can click the verify button run it and get the green check mark because that's somewhat meaningless in the grand scheme of like why do verifiable credentials need to even exist and why digital credentials right so part of these you know objectives as we're thinking about it is demonstrating that the credentials can be shared outside of a credential issue.
Sharon Leu: While its storage environment so that they have some kind of value in a.
<manu_sporny> lol... love "Let's take these credentials to the streets!"
Sharon Leu: Marketplace external to the existence of the credential and this is really important especially in education and Workforce ecosystem not only because of some of the things I mentioned earlier about how a lot of intuition is around tying the existence of subdegree credentials and using skills based hiring practices a student Gaged Talent as a means of promoting equity in the marketplace but also thinking about how much of a cottage industry education.
Sharon Leu: Tends to be on the creating and issuing credential side rather on than the using them.
Sharon Leu: As proper signals of talent side and that leads to sort of the second thought that we have on this idea of verification which is like that in order to demonstrate the utility of this kind of open ecosystem versus a system that is a little bit more closed which is the default in our space is through the use of live credentials in a production environment and so I guess depending on what is the specific thing that we are going to demonstrate interoperability against like.
Sharon Leu: Which part of that sort of value changes verification chain I think finding like a real credential that's currently being issued to real people and the hoping to promote its utility somehow I think is a really interesting way to not only show the technical potential of verifiable credentials but also to demonstrate value for this ecosystem so those are kind of the initial thoughts that we have but if you sort of .
Sharon Leu: That we have but if.
Sharon Leu: Look at the next slide some of the things that we would love to hear your feedback feedback on in addition to the objectives is you know how then should we expand participation and how can we do this strategically I think you know if we think about like 20 people participated in plugfest 2 and 40 in 3 like do we try to do go for the geometric and say like 80 people should participate I mean that seems like way out of control right but like more importantly is like who are the key stakeholders in that last part the verifying.
Sharon Leu: Part that we need to be engaging with or alternatively how can we.
Sharon Leu: Better align with goals of existing efforts to do similar things and by similar things I do mean like similar technical exercises but also credential portability exercises as well and then also as we think about that like what should we be demonstrating specifically like what's a reasonable ask that all of you on this phone call can do together in with you know some Community Resources over a two to three month period rather than.
Sharon Leu: Than biting off such a big chunk that it would take ages and ages and ages.
Sharon Leu: Just to complete so you know then of course thinking about the community resources that jff needs to invest in in order to enable this to happen so I think that there are people in the queue that have comments and I would love to hear all the comments.
Kimberly Linson: Yes me too Anil I'm going to give the floor to you first.
Anil John: Thank you and happy New Year everyone and obviously a huge fan of the work that you guys are doing here and we are absolutely good lovers and work with what you are doing in the work that we're doing it as SVIP for both trade and immigration credentials um regarding the the verification piece I think the reality of our credential ecosystem is it these credentials are never used in isolation they're used in.
Anil John: Combination with one of these things and the end state.
Anil John: Of interoperability is not just to demonstrate interoperability but it is to demonstrate that I am a person who is basically encountering a counterparty with whom I need to conduct a business that requires me to provide multiple attestation / credentials to them that may be coming from a variety of different things a classic case here for you know for the education credential is directly tied into the work that.
Anil John: We are doing.
Anil John: Particularly with USCIS I am a immigrant to the US who is applying for a job in the US that typically in the paper World requires them to provide a permanent resident card or an employment authorization document and education credentials I guess my question to Sharon in general is of when you talk about verification what is the step next to that do you.
Anil John: When do you sort of.
Anil John: Get to a point where we are actually presenting multiple credentials in a presentation and verifying them rather than one and done because it feels like the one-and-done tends to be encouraging the siloing of what is going on right now.
Sharon Leu: I think you make an excellent point and I see that Dmitri and Kerri have queued themselves so I feel like they might have comments on this that are way more interesting than what I have to say.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Sure so awesome I want to say thank you to Anil for mentioning the multiple credentials thing that sort of changes what I was going to propose so a couple of things one is I Sharon I absolutely agree that.
Dmitri Zagidulin: JFF is sort of at a cross not at the crossroads but has to balance the low level.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Feature Matrix kind of interoperability with the higher level our end goal is to encourage the growth of the ecosystem how do we demonstrate it with larger strategic partners and that's a much harder question I don't have any thoughts on that but I do want to say a couple things about the feature Matrix kind of comparison like jff 1 and 2 was.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Or two main things one is verification versus something else and then the second thing is I want to.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Talk about.
Dmitri Zagidulin: How we can make checking for verification inoperability interesting with regards to verification versus something else so my initial racialism initial proposal what was going to say that verification by itself is not that interesting like Sharon said just displaying a green check mark is not that challenging and in a sense we've already tested for it in unofficially in jff plugfest 1.
Dmitri Zagidulin: And so I was going to.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Point out the other of the three pillars of the credential ecosystems like issuing wallet and verifying.
Dmitri Zagidulin: I was going to pose I was going to point out an unofficial one which is.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Being able to migrate wallets one of the key things that I think a lot of us would agree that in our goal in preventing lock in.
Dmitri Zagidulin: One of the things that we need to make sure is that a user having loaded credentials into wallet is able to migrate to another wallet from another vendor and so one of the possibilities for like a smaller plugfest would be can I migrate this set of credentials from one mode to another whether it's because the wallet Implement standard API that allows another wallet to query credentials from and or.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Because wallet would implement a standard.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Backup standard wallet export container and I want to give a shout out to Sam carne and the iiw session on standardizing an encrypted while would export container so let's thing one.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Good consider one of the sub topics or one of the focuses of the smaller plugfest would be wallet migration so thing two if if the next plugfest should focus on verification there's a couple things we need we can do to make it interesting and challenging one is.
Dmitri Zagidulin: I 100 percent agree with what Anil said.
<manu_sporny> I like the "present multiple credentials" challenge.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Going through the full cycle of the verifier requesting multiple credentials and therefore I'm demonstrating the book The the you wallet enables the user to pick those credentials submit and then the verifier would have to verify both the presentation and the individual credentials in that bundle so that's thing number one multiple credentials number two is I think we can.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Demonstrate not just the green check mark but also .
Dmitri Zagidulin: The red error sign meaning we also want to demonstrate that the verifier Rejects.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Invalid signatures.
<anil_john_[us/dhs/svip]> I think we as an ecosystem need to help solve the actual problem people have with presentation -- Real world presentation is multiple credentials from multiple different issuers -- before going into things that are of interest only to developers.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Re revoked credentials revoked Keys possibly and and all sorts of other error conditions so think between those two the requesting multiple credentials protocol being able to modify bundles and individual sorry being able to verify bundles and individual credentials and demonstrating the rejection of.
Marty Reed: +1 Present multiple credentials
Dmitri Zagidulin: Various error conditions I think taking taken as a group that could be a nice challenging plugfest thank you.
Kimberly Linson: Thanks Dmitri Kerri.
<manu_sporny> CHAPI Playground already has a permanent resident card credential issued by the govt. of Utopia. :)
<manu_sporny> that plus an EDU credential is a possibility.
Kerri Lemoie: Yeah I think I am I think in this in this group we think about verification as Dmitri just described it which is you know the the actual standard verification I do the required elements meet that but I think over the years where we've learned through the open badges Community Education VCs is that there is this underlying semantic interoperability that's needed so we may want to think Beyond.
Kerri Lemoie: Verification but think about the needs of the relying third.
Kerri Lemoie: Parties there are a lot of vocabularies that are in place that our linked data that can help with this and I think we might want to get ahead of that as we start looking into plugfest 3 you know what those will be so for instance in plugfest 2 we required some elements for open Badges and that plugfest that aren't required as part of open badges 2.0 and 3.0 because we wanted to make sure that understandability is there a namingly like issuer name.
Kerri Lemoie: And issuer logo but the payloads for Education data education credentials.
Kerri Lemoie: Can be pretty critical to adoption and to understanding so that something to for us to think ahead to consider Rich skill skill descriptors credential engine and then they're their standards they reference competencies and the transparency description language so we can conclude that we can get that semantic understandability interoperability as well as part of this.
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): So reflecting on the assumption that verification could be the possible phase 3 and what are the stakeholders that we're missing so if we really want this credential to take the streets so in the education space I mean the chiasm between education and work I mean you have two Pathways right for this credentials to become opportunities one is the employability pathways and the other one is the enrollment pathways.
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): so on the employability pathways to test the.
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): Verification we would need employer right on the enrollment Pathways maybe we could play with what Anil is already done you know with the immigration services I mean international Student mobility into the u.s. is a big thing you were required to present your prior learning credentials to the government to get you know an I-20 or a Visa and I know that that is a use case that it's already been worked on.
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): on in as in dsv AP challenge.
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): I wonder if we could reuse leverage some of the pre-existing interop there along that enrollment Pathways where one of these one of the consumer the verifier would be I guess the government.
Kimberly Linson: Thank you Nate.
Dmitri Zagidulin: I think Phil is up next.
Kimberly Linson: Well thanks Dmitri I missed him entirely.
<marty_reed> in the interest of time, I would challenge the error conditions/revocation are ready for prime time and while I am 100% supportive of pushing the envelope I think that would push a hello world a bit far.
PL: Can you hear me okay so I think my comments are aligned with and to some extent with both Dmitri and Simone have just mentioned and that is the that in fact verifiers that perhaps matter the most or the are the employers for whom these credentials are intended to provide richer value added information to the people who are possessing.
PL: them for those individual.
<anil_john_[us/dhs/svip]> For the record, when Sharon was at Dept of Ed -- w/in .gov, we fully understood the value of joint presentation of immigration and edu credentials for employment purposes :-)
PL: Relying parties to make judgments about their the predictability of validity of those individuals adding value to their companies or whatever positions these things are are being applied being used to apply for and so the question that comes to mind to me is I second Dmitri's comment that we need to get the demonstration of of revoked credentials in the like because that's adding another layer Beyond just verification.
PL: on the first instance that adds a.
<dmitri_zagidulin> @Marty - would you say that about all validation errors, or just some of them? For example, would it not be reasonable to expect to reject an invalid signature?
<sharon_leu> @Anil, I remember that fondly!
PL: Little bit of nuance and in greater Comfort to the relying party that a credential received is of is is valid and if it is in fact revoked there is Meaningful information back to them about that revocation but secondly the we haven't heard from or engaged particularly well with the consumers of this environment and that would be the employers themselves or the its systems in the like that are.
PL: currently the place where.
<marty_reed> @Dmitri - I agree, some conditions are ready but there are many that are not.
<dmitri_zagidulin> agreed, yeah
PL: Much of the value of presenting credentials of the existing forms end up being evaluated in this and can and the decisions made about the status of what happens to that person next and so somehow or other we have to bring in if not for no other reason to be the person that is the relying party group those individuals that are hiring managers that are part of Sherm and doing that for initial review and or.
PL: those that are part of the systems that are acting as current.
PL: Intermediaries in front of job applications and requests posted for employment so I think that's a community that we haven't reached out to and somehow or other we have to bring them in thanks.
<marty_reed> Just thinking about barriers to entry/participation/collaboration
Kimberly Linson: Thanks Phil all right Nate.
Nate_Otto_(he/him): I don't think so yes excellent work with these plugfest so I think that the future is bright for them I would not be surprised if the participation grows even as the difficulty of completing the tasks in successive steps that we’re incrementing on gets more difficult Anil raises a great point on the cross verification of multiple different credentials and in this space we're talking about LER learner employment record type.
Nate_Otto_(he/him): credentials what we're looking to build as.
<naomi> @Sharon, @Anil - I understand that one of the upcoming conversations of the NEW Velocity Advisory Board may specifically address international mobility... I can keep you informed.
<anil_john_[us/dhs/svip]> Thank you @Naomi
<simone_ravaioli_(vc_edu)> to P1 ... in bringing in HR / ATS ... might Velocity Network play a role ?
Nate_Otto_(he/him): An ecosystem where Learners workers can show up to a new work opportunity and then be welcomed there understood in terms of the skills and certifications that they hold you know a lot of this business logic is inside the verifier app and is subsequent to that the basic green checkmark type verification and it means interpreting a bunch of things from the credentials into that local context of the verifier Phil mentioned the gold standard in this space for the you know the USCS credentials and for these LER credentials is that.
Nate_Otto_(he/him): the holder gets a job because they had the right qualifications and so the worst outcome is if the credential.
Nate_Otto_(he/him): Shareholder has this cool shiny verifiable credential that we tell them is so interoperable and that employer can't even understand it can't even get to the green checkmark and let alone can't even get beyond that OB and CLR are specs that mostly operate at the schema level in the VC Tech stack so they help issuers have a common way to describe a particular achievement or a skill within a certification but the business value in the space of like what it takes to actually get to offering a.
Nate_Otto_(he/him): a job to the holder depends on the trust models that aren't very binary at all you've got to trust a particular
<anil_john_[us/dhs/svip]> I have an upcoming conversation with the EU/EC folks coming up on this topic as well -- An EU Citizen w/ an EUDI Wallet should be able to use that wallet at a USCIS issuer get immigration creds for them live and work in the US << How do we make that happen?
Nate_Otto_(he/him): Issuer to recognize a certain skill from its source domain maybe understand how it crosswalks to a certain different skill definition in the verifier’s target domain some kind of scalar variable thing they're figuring out how to model requirements that might match up against these skills or achievement credentials is actually a lot more tricky than just say asking for a particular credential type like we've seen in a lot of the early examples elsewhere in this next stage so in this context.
Nate_Otto_(he/him): you know what's the next most valuable.
Nate_Otto_(he/him): Step for the type of the plugfest upper type context to resolve and probably we recognize that there is a lot of work a lot of territory to cover and these plug fests work best when they operate in an incremental way so I think there's a strong case that the next increment is that the presentation to the verifier happens and we just get to that green check mark even if we know there's a whole lot of work after that sorry for taking so long.
Kimberly Linson: Thanks Nate that was helpful Manu.
Marty Reed: +1 Nate
<dmitri_zagidulin> @Anil - highly agree, the OBv3/CLR interop with the EU emerging standards is definitely a conversation we need to have as a community
<smagennis> @Nate, post checkmark work is complex, but at least it is well understood by verifier
<kaliya_identitywoman> I mean you could have a "level 1" interop with the green check mark - and a level two goes beyond that.
Manu Sporny: Yeah a huge plus 1 to what Nate has been saying as well as you know Dmitri and Phil and you know the rest of the folks that that chimed in I'm wondering if we should ask the people that are funding this work to give us a concrete value add so that they can justify why they're spending this money right so I mean in that I think what that ends up looking like is you know Walmart is funding this stuff largely they are.
Manu Sporny: Doing it you know for reasons to.
<pl> @Simone potentially yes. I'm cognizant that decisions made based on the review of credentials are made by people and we need those who make those decisions involved - initially socializing them to this space; but especially for their reactions to information presented and if it adds value to their process.
Dmitri Zagidulin: @Kaliya: +1 to that, checking by interop levels might be helpful
Manu Sporny: Improve it you know partially the way they operate I mean I know that's the Walmart foundation and they have bigger bigger thing but you know we need to get the business value like actual value that's that's achieved and like Phil was saying you know the I think the people that are not here right now unfortunately are like the HR systems that would be pulling this stuff in so I'm like I don't know if it's possible but having an HR System.
Manu Sporny: Be Central to the next plugfest or a.
<kaliya_identitywoman> The are all hanging out in Velocity network - yes?
Manu Sporny: Future one would be great having employers that are willing to modify their operations as a result of this if we can find a good Target credential or set of credentials would be beneficial and as Nate said you know LERs are really complex things I'm wondering if we what's the minimum viable set of credentials that provide business value to the point that someone would actually end up meaning meaning.
Manu Sporny: An employer or an HR company.
<nate_otto_(he/him)> Recruiting an HR system would be cool, but we won't wait around until one of those or LinkedIn shows up to the table. We have the potential to build MVPs that are killer apps at micro scale prior to when we achieve the "gold standard" use cases.
Manu Sporny: Would end up making this a part of their process so I know that's a really big challenging thing to do but I think to date the plugfest have really focused on Technical interop and Technical challenges and we can continue to do that and I don't doubt that we will do well in doing that right we'll pick good bite size pieces that we can do but none of this really matters unless we get the business challenge you know achieved.
<anil_john_[us/dhs/svip]> I am trying to find the right folks @
<naomi> @Kaliya - we have the HR tech solutions for 30% of large employers in Velocity Network (and other players/tools for small employers), but lg employers will give critical mass
Manu Sporny: Which is creating value for both the people that hold these credentials in the the HR systems and the employers that consume the credentials you know I feel like the longer we stay away from having those participants as a central part of the plugfest the more of kind of navel-gazing exercise this is right I mean so so I know that's really hard to do like all of us are trying to do that right.
Manu Sporny: But I think we need to figure out if what.
Manu Sporny: We're doing here are like technical plugfest challenges or we're also trying to solve the business ecosystem challenge which is really the thing that drives money and you know cash flow to make these ecosystems better that’s it.
Kimberly Linson: That's a really good sort of final thought this has been an incredible discussion I'm feeling very.
Kimberly Linson: The reality of this for me today is that I'm sitting in the office of a professional licensure board and they are I'm sitting today with the people whose job it is to verify multiple credentials in order to determine whether or not someone is qualified for a professional license and I can tell you from looking at their faces and listening to this conversation that we're having these this is a real problem that we are trying.
Kimberly Linson: To solve.
<sharon_leu> This isn't the last time we will engage about this, so please join us at upcoming vc-edu calls (Mon) or reach out,
<simone_ravaioli_(vc_edu)> @Anil - I would love to support that EU/EC conversation if needed, connecting my dots. Also, the same might happen with Canada ... MyCreds is ready to issue VCs in production (and was part of PF2 through MATTR)
Kimberly Linson: This is cumbersome work that they have to do manually that we are offering them a better solution for and I'm so excited to be a part of this community and what we're doing so we are at time and so I'm going to to cut us off here and and I'll Echo what Sharon said we will continue to engage in talk about this there's a lot more conversation to be had I would invite you all to join the vc edu calls on Monday Alex I’m sorry we didn’t have a chance .
<pl> @anil - the control of the relying part in the EU context, up to and including their ability to erase a wallet's contents including the government's ability to erase their digital identity is quite concerning.
<sharon_leu> Thanks!
Kimberly Linson: To talk about your proposed work item and some of the conversation that we had last week I'd encourage you to drop a note on the list and in the email and we can maybe get a discussion started there and otherwise thank you all I hope you all have a great week and we will see you next week thanks everybody.
<naomi> Thank you!
<econnell> thanks!
Kimberly Linson: I just need for once everybody drops off then I can stop the recording.
<simone_ravaioli_(vc_edu)> This chat was exploding ! :-)