Kerri Lemoie: Anyway I just want to let folks know that we publish the videos for the plugfest to demos you can get it a link to it on the plugfest to web page and then put that in the chat for you right now. ✪
Kerri Lemoie: Right at the top you'll see participant list with videos and then this is actually the list. ✪
<tallted_//_ted_thibodeau_(he/him)_(openlinksw.com)> The transcriber has intermittent and unpredictable deafness problems just like the rest of us. Restarting it *may* fix. Users not being heard by it may also need to drop and rejoin.
Kerri Lemoie: These are sorry it took so long but we had a lot of to go through this was a much more complex like class because we had issuers issuing to two wallets to all its or well it's issuing 22 issuers and then we also had multiple more than that more than more than two per some of the entries and then some folks you know combine their videos so it took us a while to sort it all out but you should be able to get a link to all of the organizations participated on this page. ✪
Kerri Lemoie: See what they submitted at and the wallets and issuers interacted with and then. ✪
<deb_everhart_(credential_engine)> is there also a list of all the participants?
TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): I'm just a quick thing the transcriber goes deaf just like the rest of us sometimes it's intermittent and unpredictable sometimes restarting the transcriber will fix it sometimes the users that it's not hearing also need to drop and rejoin. ✪
Jen_Schreiber: Not exactly her dish how sure how to do that but there are questions throughout I don't know Simone if you want to chime in or we can save them to the end. ✪
Jen_Schreiber: Perfect so as I got introduced I'm John Schreiber a software engineer at work day primarily working on VC interop and I met Simone a hat IW and have been kind of attending this task force on and off since then so I'm excited to be able to present here and share with you all some of the work that we've been doing. ✪
Jen_Schreiber: Bye little bit of an intro on what is interoperability I'm sure this part will be preaching to the choir with you all as very Pro interop Group next I'll get into the jot VC interoperability profile itself share with you all about the technology kind of some of the reasoning behind that its impact on open Badges and then I'll end with a nice demo okay let's get started. ✪
Jen_Schreiber: Especially related to verifiable credentials and I know you all are familiar with the this cuz all of the plugfest initiatives this last year but interoperability is the ability of different systems to talk to each other and in my mind interoperability is really the marker of amateur and successful verifiable credential ecosystem without interop without being able to share an issue credentials across multiple wallets and verify. ✪
<simone_ravaioli_(vc_edu)> love this streetwise def of Interop Jen
Jen_Schreiber: Like you can't really embrace the true power of VC's and its use cases and it's. ✪
Jen_Schreiber: How are really gets stifled so why should you care about interoperability interoperability empowers the end-user it really empowers the holder of the credential in the context of this task force that's often the student to be active in their learning or education Journey they can take their credentials with them across institutions as they change universities they can get new credentials along the way but we really need interoperability to enable this. ✪
Jen_Schreiber: To have we want to avoid the situation where there's kind of like one wallet to rule them all or one issue or one verifier by opening the ecosystem and having interoperability we can really solve for a wide range of use cases and make our holders like quite successful in that education journey and lastly interoperability promotes VC up take this one's kind of self-explanatory but the. ✪
Jen_Schreiber: Verifiers and wallets we have the more popular verifiable credentials come will come and I think that's kind of the end goal that we all want we're VCS become really ubiquitous within technology. ✪
Jen_Schreiber: So currently there's lots of great specifications that you all know whether they're published by ietf or open id'd if w3c lots of specs for issuing and verifying VCS between wallets issuers and verifiers but because of all these specs the wallets and the verifiers the issuer's they all have to decide which specifications they want to operate under and support and hope that anybody that they. ✪
Jen_Schreiber: on to communicate with any of these. ✪
Jen_Schreiber: Also support the same specs and specs by Nature are very broad flexible and often pretty on a pinion ated and all of this optionality within the specifications make it quite complex and really expensive to deliver code maintain a solution and issue and verifies VCS and specs alone cannot as you all have seen I'm sure they can't ensure interoperability and so. ✪
Jen_Schreiber: Vacation profile specification profiles outline the way in which multiple parties agree to implement a given set of specifications and they try to strip all but required optionality from uh specification so let's say in the use case of a jot if you see right so without a specification profile a implementer might have to support let's say like. ✪
Jen_Schreiber: Designing algorithms because they don't know which type which dad algorithm you know whoever they want to communicate also supports but if we were to use a specification profile let's say that requires maybe only to signing algorithms that's overall like a 20x reduction in complexity with just that one constraint of signatures so you can visualize that if we were to go through this step for all the different specifications in a flow. ✪
Jen_Schreiber: It would really reduce that cost and complexity for implementers. ✪
Jen_Schreiber: So in comes the giant VC interoperability profile that I've been working on within the diff or decentralized identity foundations and we're working on this within the claims and credentials working group in the Jap VC interoperability profile work item. ✪
Jen_Schreiber: And there's been lots of great contributors to the profile thus far including me and my team at work day Microsoft ping matter IBM Spruce gen digital and then also other companies who are starting to implement the profile. ✪
Jen_Schreiber: Okay so now I want it to break down a little bit of the oh I heard a ping oh there's someone in the queue and they're out now okay okay yeah no problem so this slide just kind of goes over our stages of the interop profile we've divided the profile into three stages presentation issuance and portability or display VCS. ✪
Jen_Schreiber: Asian stage involves the whole enables the holder a to be able to present a compliant vc2 verifier be issuer issuance stage represents enabling an issue or be to be able to issue a credential to holder a and then portability and display involves consistent you is and the movement of VCS between different wallets. ✪
Jen_Schreiber: Right now State the first stage presentation of VCS that segment of the profile has been published within deaf and you can find that online issuance is being actively worked on us editors are planning on publishing the first draft of that in the next couple weeks so you can see that live then we haven't really started looking at portability and display yet. ✪
Jen_Schreiber: but if you were to compare this to. ✪
Jen_Schreiber: We got within this work item that jmf flux is it kind of went a little bit in the opposite direction Flex S1 I think started with display and Pub plugfest to with issuance and then I think that the last plugfest will be presentation so same content but a little bit of a different order. ✪
Jen_Schreiber: Let's talk about the technology and the profile itself so the Jap VC interrupt profiles are based on open ID for verifiable credentials open ID for VP and open ID for VCI with some unused optionality to removed remember like kind of the goal of the specification profile is to make it as simple for implementers to write the code and my aunt Amy's. ✪
Jen_Schreiber: In the solutions and promote kind of like easy quick interop so we're using jot VCS with did methods of did ion or did web we're soon to be adding did J B WK the two key types that are supported our ed2 5519 and SEC P 256 K 1 keys. ✪
Jen_Schreiber: Using well-known did configuration which is a diff spec for link domain verification that is enables some basically trust for the domain and for the identities of the implementers for revocation status list 20 21 and then issuance right now is just supporting just-in-time issuance no deferred issuance and only an authorization code no pre-authorization code. ✪
Jen_Schreiber: I think we've had this Mantra throughout the whole experience of developing these interrupt profiles and that has been really that we're seeking progress and not Perfection with the recognition that really no specification profile is going to be universally accepted after its first iterate iteration and it kind of needs to adapt and grow naturally as implementers needs change but this is like that first kind of. ✪
Jen_Schreiber: First progress towards that and over time I think successful profiles there will probably be a couple competing profiles and hopefully they'll likely converge and we got this kind of universal standard for the ecosystem and that will make interrupt very easy and convenient for everybody so chat GPT I think put it really nicely that path to success lies in constant Improvement not the pursuit of an unattainable perfection. ✪
Jen_Schreiber: Okay let's talk use cases because this task worse loves the use cases so the Jap VC interoperability profiles were developed with the workplace credential use case in mind this is a credential type that's issued to a user by its workplace organization and we're calling this a verified employee. ✪
Jen_Schreiber: Type of credential would be employees students staff contractors or vendors of a workplace and workplace credential could support users in their Journey when they on board to a new company access to different workplace applications maybe even alumni scenario so there's lots of use cases that are workplace credential could support. ✪
Jen_Schreiber: And open badges really fit nicely into the interoperability profile especially the open badges V3 data model which are just verifiable credentials and they can be encoded just like any VC into a jot and once the badges are encoded in Jets we can use the interoperability profile to issue and verify them like we would any other. ✪
Jen_Schreiber: And that can again like ensure interoperability interoperable issuance and presentation of these ob3 job VCS and really enhance that student Journey so the new ob3 is just really exciting when you are able to use it with a profile like this. ✪
Jen_Schreiber: Okay and then the last portion of my presentation is a demo so I thought that you all would probably want to see the interoperability profile in action and so for the demo I'm going to be using a little scenario of a student and in this case my name as a student It's Pat Smith and let's just say I'm a university student getting my BS in. ✪
Jen_Schreiber: And so on the right of the screen you can see this is my wallet this is a command line wallet I'll get into that when I show you the actual demo but i'ii credentials in my wallet one is a research assistant I work in an organic chemistry lab and they're certain safety requirements so I had to go through training and that gave me this are a verified employee credential I'm also a student so I have a student credential maybe that gives me a discount to the movies or. ✪
Jen_Schreiber: This into a building and then the last credential in the wallet is teaching assistant credentials so I taught chem 101 last semester and I needed to have access to a grading website to be able to add grades for students exams. ✪
Jen_Schreiber: Has been revoked because let's say I did that last semester and now I shouldn't have access to the system so that sets the stage a little bit for the demo and I think I need to stop sharing and then re share again so I can show you the demo let's do that real quick. ✪
Jen_Schreiber: Pre-recorded because I'm not bold enough to do a live demo but I will talk through it so. ✪
Jen_Schreiber: So you should see I think that's that looks good from what I can tell. ✪
Jen_Schreiber: Okay great so this is a screenshot of my command line so I'm going to be demoing this flow with a command line wallet that my team at work day developed just for internal purposes that way we could easily iterate on interop and I just makes it really quick and. ✪
Jen_Schreiber: Okay so the demo wallet has some convenient commands in it to issue and verify VCS you can scan QR codes and list different credentials that I have in my wallet so we use this demo wallet VC LS command so that you can see all the VCS in my wallet these are the three species that I showed you on the previous slide I have my student my aura and then my revoke t a credential. ✪
Jen_Schreiber: Okay so I'm going to first show you we're going to probably go through like 5 I think verifiers in this flow don't worry some of them will be at like 1.5 x speed so it's only like a three minute demo but I think by showing all the verifiers you can see the power of interoperability profile so let's play so on the right side I have a Microsoft verifier. ✪
Jen_Schreiber: And I use this demo while it's can command to scan the QR code with my demo wallet I just screenshot the qr-code much like I'd use a camera on a mobile app to scan a QR code so after I scan it then I'd M Allah will run through all these checks that are required in the profile so I will resolve the verifiers did and on eye on network and. ✪
Jen_Schreiber: get its public key material I'll check the. ✪
Jen_Schreiber: Of the URL to make sure that I can trust this verifier that's the text in green and then my wallet will Loop through the credentials and check which credentials match the. ✪
Jen_Schreiber: Match the presentation definition defined by the verifier so this profiles using presentation exchange so after that I'm going to choose my credential in this case I'm going to share a student credential and my response has been accepted and then you can see that the presentation has been verified on the verifier okay so next I'm going to go through on a 1.5 x speed lots of other verifiers starting with a ping verifier it'll do all the same. ✪
Jen_Schreiber: I am and I'm going to share the student credential. ✪
Jen_Schreiber: Next I'm going to go through a jet this one verifier was made by Jen digital again scanning the QR code so you can see really buy all of these examples the power of the Jap VC interoperability profile it makes it very easy and the wallet has all the confidence that if the verifier follows the all of the specifications and directions within the profile then. ✪
Jen_Schreiber: So this is a spruce verifier you can see I think this time I shared research assistant Prudential. ✪
Jen_Schreiber: And here there's the credential subject and then lastly I'm going to pause it real quick this last verifier this is a verifier developed by auth0 lab and the most exciting about thing about this verifier is I just learned about this verifier on Wednesday in our last diff meeting and I tested it out for the first time on Friday as I was recording these videos and because they follow the. ✪
Jen_Schreiber: Patient profile to a tee I was actually able to present my credentials to this verifier and have success on the first try so I think that's pretty amazing and shows you really how much following a specification profile really reduces all of the friction so I'm going to run through this one really quick as well run through my skin command anybody who's tried inner off. ✪
Jen_Schreiber: and Sherry and credentials between wallets. ✪
Jen_Schreiber: Who participated in the plugfest you know that like in reality interop is very hard and there's so many little details that you have to work through and by following a profile like it just reduces all that so there you go success on the first try and then last demo I'm going to have this verifier check revocation status of the credential so it wants to make sure. ✪
Jen_Schreiber: sure that a credential it receives. ✪
Jen_Schreiber: Vocht we're using replication status or status list 2021 for revocation so I'm going to try to be a little sneaky and shared a revoked credential this will be my ta chem 101. ✪
Jen_Schreiber: See that the verifier was not happy about the credential status and that's exactly the outcome that we wanted so I hope that through all of these demos and seeing you know quickly each verifier run through that you might be able to a little bit appreciate what a interoperability what this job you see interoperability profile enables and how through it we can have a successful in Europe. ✪
Jen_Schreiber: Yeah definitely I was thinking that as well because one of the whole tracks of the plugfest is based on open ID for VC so it fits in very nicely and I love to see that overlap. ✪
<sharon_leu> @Jen - Will definitely reach out to chat. Excited to build on areas of alignment.
Jen_Schreiber: Yes so I believe Microsoft I'm Tricia an that product area is based on the interoperability profile so they were kind of developing without use case in mind from work days perspective this is all. ✪
Jen_Schreiber: Not productized on our end but really our team is focused on building out the specifications and the profiles so that one day we might be able to move in that direction. ✪
Jen_Schreiber: Yeah I think it's oh I heard another comment. ✪
Jen_Schreiber: I think it yeah it just enables some really exciting possibilities and I'm not sure which of those will become a reality really you could use the interop profile for any use case right you could use it for sharing skills with open badges you could use it for workplace credential you could use it for an access credential so there's lots of different use cases and by folk by focusing on the. ✪
Jen_Schreiber: specifications in the protocols to create interoperability. ✪
Jen_Schreiber: Enabling that future where like any application could work so in my mind it's more about we're like kind of setting the stage for whichever use case or application of these becomes more ubiquitous it ubiquitous or kind of do a reality. ✪
Jen_Schreiber: It's a future that we all hope for right like why we're doing all this. ✪
Jen_Schreiber: Yeah so right now we're in strictly like. ✪
Jen_Schreiber: Kind of like a proof of concept stage so work name is very early in the adoption of these you know there has been people out where day working on VC's I don't know for the last trying to think of my timeline is 2023 maybe like five years right so being very early in the ecosystem a lot of the standards just weren't where they needed to be to productize credentials and with outstanding. ✪
Jen_Schreiber: and erds and even without interop. ✪
Jen_Schreiber: It's hard to have that future of you sees that we all want so workday now is pulling back and in the phase where we're putting our energy more into working on the standard side and working on the profile and not committing to a product at this point. ✪
Jen_Schreiber: It's hard to be an early adopter right. ✪
Jen_Schreiber: Yes yeah and and you know like it should take some iterations to get this right and it's not easy work that we're all doing and you know teaching the general public about credentials about decentralized identity like all of that takes time and also getting the standards where they need to be to have the credential world that we all want. ✪
Kerri Lemoie: Yes hey Jen thank you for this and petitioner we appreciate it I have a question for you we've been working on the open Badge of stuff for a while now and here we are we're getting to this this time where we're making a lot of progress on I'm going to call it the envelope aspect of verifiability right and and do the interrupt stuff in terms of exchanging. ✪
Kerri Lemoie: When they nasari to come more and more. ✪
Kerri Lemoie: Reaching out to me is vocabulary and payload and like semantic interoperability and there are standards for that an open Badges and has a whole whole lot of metadata that could be used and there's other other standards coming you know and taxonomy is available and I was just sort of wondering about your perspective on that in terms of like the understandability of its kind of tells me start setting them around. ✪
Jen_Schreiber: So understandability from like a technical perspective for the implementers or more for the holders. ✪
Kerri Lemoie: I'm work for the the verifiers in the relying parties like the other payload data read the description of these credentials which I find is one of the most challenging parts of the work we're doing in this task force because there are so many different types of credentials that were trying to communicate. ✪
Jen_Schreiber: Oh I see like credential types is more what you're talking about. ✪
Kerri Lemoie: So we have a yeah so for instance right now we must have badges but we can say that credential is it could be a diploma could be a certification but then in the credential subject and the actual achievement we may have like fields in there that sort of give more information right and that kind of mad at this yeah yeah so you're really talking about important schema all right and linked data where I'll be talking about it more as like metadata properties yeah yeah. ✪
Jen_Schreiber: I see ya what a complex topic schemas we always you know because I would say that because this profile is like really use case agnostic where we try not to get too into like what what schema you would use right like we have the workplace credential in the verified employee that follows a certain metadata but besides that we're not really like making an opinion on. ✪
Jen_Schreiber: you have to use the profile with this because. ✪
Jen_Schreiber: It's just so complex and there is really no it's not set in stone I would say kind of what you were alluding to carry so I don't really have a good answer to that I hope that as different use cases develop or as different verifiers would decide you know like I'm accepting a badge only badges or I'm accepting this like we would get to some sort of standard way to express that but. ✪
Kerri Lemoie: You know someday I think it'd be great to revisit this with you and work day because I think you are working more unemployment credentials and a lot of times we talk about you education achievements but this this work this task force is both and even though we aren't specifically saying so our sort of implying that experiences is in works with their education too so I'm curious yeah to see in some point like if employers and HR assistant start using different. ✪
Kerri Lemoie: And the education ones and how we can sort of figure that out right I don't know thinking out loud a little bit. ✪
Jen_Schreiber: Yeah yeah because if right like there's one thing about this you know speaking the same language of implementation and then also you have to understand the credential itself and yeah or else like where's the values so I think that's really important. ✪
Deb_Everhart_(Credential_Engine): Hey John thanks this is really helpful sorry I meant to leave my camera on and and great to see how this work is progressing especially across major players who are going to be super influential in this space so thank you for bringing up the the payload and I put a link in the chat to the handbook for the credential transparency description language I have a question to this. ✪
Deb_Everhart_(Credential_Engine): group in general. ✪
Deb_Everhart_(Credential_Engine): So CDL covers all different types of Education and Training credentials you know diplomas badges degrees certificates Etc as well as courses and skills and it covers the it covers the basics of jobs and work roles but it doesn't really it does not I just say it explicitly it does not cover actual employment records. ✪
Deb_Everhart_(Credential_Engine): My broader question to this group is what would be useful in terms of how we bring schemas together is their employment records schema that is broadly used or could be adapted and what could we do that's useful to connect that to see TDL for example we've offered to connect see gdl to jdx. ✪
Deb_Everhart_(Credential_Engine): but I know that's only part of this. ✪
Deb_Everhart_(Credential_Engine): So what would be helpful. ✪
Dmitri Zagidulin: Just wanted to add a quick response. ✪
Dmitri Zagidulin: The one thing I think would be really helpful from a developer standpoint is if maybe as a standalone video or maybe as a presentation here on one of these calls. ✪
Dmitri Zagidulin: The tutorial of if you're a developer and you're you're creating for a pilot or deployment let's say of course credential here's how you would add data enrichment using CTL so I think. ✪
Deb_Everhart_(Credential_Engine): Yeah we'd be happy to do that I'll also put a link in the chat to the badge publisher guide that we've that we've written collaboratively with an advisor but that is specifically about badges but it's really in general about how you use an alignment to link data that's outside the credential that's issued so it's generally available generally applicable. ✪
Deb_Everhart_(Credential_Engine): But anyway my question was like where where are the where the schema boundaries do those need to be boundaries how can we link things together because I thought the examples that you showed Jen we're interesting in part because they overlap employment and Education and Training credentials so just putting it out there that we want to be collaborative on this front and let us know what would be useful. ✪
<sharon_leu> q
Jen_Schreiber: Yeah thanks I totally agree the lines are a little bit blurry on how we Define kind of the metadata or the even the scheme of a credential and it's a little bit subjective so yeah. ✪
Jen_Schreiber: It's a great thing to work towards. ✪
Sharon Leu: I'm hitting the plus got added so that was a mistake I guess I wanted to rewind to earlier in the conversation where you were talking about the employer issued Workforce credential and I'm curious in using open badge which is designed not for that uses his we're like did you encounter any sort of limits to that particular specification or like did you have recommendations for other people who are also using them for non sort of traditional education. ✪
Jen_Schreiber: From the display perspective or kind of broadly. ✪
Jen_Schreiber: Gasps so workday had we had implemented earlier with badges 2.0 and at that point we kind of bespoke Lee stuck the badge in a VC and kind of display the badge I. ✪
Jen_Schreiber: Had to kind of played around using them for employment scenarios but I can't quite remember like any roadblocks we came to we have not tested putting badges 3.0 at like the newer badges as credentials so I can't directly answer to that. ✪
Jen_Schreiber: But we had kind of put them I think we were mainly using them into for like a picture type display that could be displayed on some sort of social media so that was the perspective we were coming from but I don't have much more to elaborate that didn't really answer your question I think like the emphasis I would put is that. ✪
Jen_Schreiber: Should treat badges just as we would treat any other VC and not kind of in my mind give it like super special treatment but you know it is essentially just a data model that we can use VC's to kind of wrap around it so the more we incorporate like that badge into the whole VC ecosystem that we have existing I think the more successful that badges will be. ✪
Jen_Schreiber: That would be my comment on that. ✪
Jen_Schreiber: Yeah and I think Kerry mentioned that you know we have been contributors to the open badges 3.0 specs so you know I'm trying to play an active role in that group to help make sure that the badges the future of Badges and the future VC is converging a really easy-to-use nice way so. ✪
Jen_Schreiber: Why don't you see if I can publish it I got a double check on that. ✪
Jen_Schreiber: Yeah I think there are a lot of possibilities and a lot of potential and as we get the technology and the standards to where they need to be I think it's a very exciting future. ✪
<kerri_lemoie> Great presentation, Jen. Thank you!
<colin_reynolds,_ed_design_lab> Thanks for joining and sharing Jen!
Jen_Schreiber: Yeah thank you all for being a great audience and engaged really appreciate it. ✪
<sharon_leu> Thank you, Jen, this is exciting!
<chris_kelly_(dif)> Thanks all!
<kerri_lemoie> Have a great week!
Eric_Shepherd: Now that's right I wanted to say thank you and clap and I hit the wrong button so I didn't actually intend to speak but I was great presentation that was really really helpful for me thank you so much. ✪