The W3C Credentials Community Group

Meeting Transcriptions and Audio Recordings (2014-today)

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Transcript for 2023-06-12

Our Robot Overlords are scribing. Our Robot Overlords are scribing.
Kerri Lemoie: There it is.\

Topic: IP Note\

<kerri_lemoie> I think Simone isn't getting recorded by the transcriber.\
<kerri_lemoie> We'll look into this\
<tallted_//_ted_thibodeau_(he/him)_(> I think it's not just Simone\

Topic: Call Notes\

<tallted_//_ted_thibodeau_(he/him)_(> Probably need to stop and restart...\

Topic: Introductions & Reintroductions\

Kerri Lemoie: So now I queued\myself up I'm honestly this is Carrie Lemoie\folks I'm just kidding myself up to see if the transcriber is still working.\
Kerri Lemoie: Not see it work out there so it is working for me but okay.\
Kerri Lemoie: It's your voice I don't know sure what it is but okay thank you.\

Topic: Announcements & Reminders\

Kerri Lemoie: This is a real announcement not to suggest one I was going to be starting a special topic group IV C Ed you and I did like to invite all of you to to join this discussion has to do with enrollment status we do have a use case IVC a do for enrollment link to it right here I think this use case could actually be updated for enrollment not just to be car.\
Kerri Lemoie: And enrollment but.\
Kerri Lemoie: Rolled or graduated but there's a lot of like use cases it seems in the consumption of credentials where employers just want to know if somebody is enrolled and also their use cases where students who are enrolled whether high school or secondary or even some other program outside of the formal step could use that for you know other reasons right.\
Kerri Lemoie: Off the top of my.\
Kerri Lemoie: Students who are enrolled may get discounts while they're enrolled in school it's a pretty common one but it's turning out that this is like globally something that is necessary and may not be too difficult for us to start with like sort of an easy data model for it and discuss ways that this could be implemented in a simple way where these key issue dust in a simple way so what I've done is I've created a form of Interest form only put a link to it in the chat for you all.\
Kerri Lemoie: Right here.\
Kerri Lemoie: Like right there is the billing to just a Google form just just for a contact info and then I will reach out and we can figure out a time to meet to have this first discussion and take it from there we can talk about you know how to use rely on existing standards do we need to come up with something new you know just just to have these discussions and talk about all of these cases that we can think of so I welcome you to join us.\
Kerri Lemoie: Hopefully this is something that moves pretty quickly and we could maybe move through it.\
Kerri Lemoie: He's out in the fall because anybody have any questions about this.\
Nader Helmy: Thank you Simone a can everyone hear me okay.\
Nader Helmy: Perfect thank you very much for the invite as as someone I said I'm later he'll me I'm from a company called matter and I'm just going to share my screen here let me know when you can see it.\
Nader Helmy: Perfect yes I'm from a company called matter which is based in New Zealand I'm a product strategist there but today I'm going to be talking as someone I said about the my creds national network in Canada specifically what is the approach that we took when it came to kind of designing an interoperable education solution what we've learned along the way and then sort of what kind of some some insights and potential next steps might be very.\
Nader Helmy: Areas-- to get the feedback from the people in this.\
Nader Helmy: Um around all of that and really want to engage with the broader Community around what we've done with my creds.\
Simone Ravaoli:\
Nader Helmy: So starting off like what is my creds to begin with my creds is a national shared service in platform in Canada that offers essentially a what's called a learner credential wallet that gives students and Learners access to their academic records now my creds kind of proceeds the the idea of verifiable credentials and the the kind of work that's happened lately so there's a new.\
Nader Helmy: Native within my cred.\
Nader Helmy: All the virtual skills Pratt passport or the VSP as you might see a refer to for short which is essentially kind of more of a decentralized identity solution with a digital wallet that allows people to kind of you know own their data around their academic records and present it to relying parties in an indirect way kind of the typical issuer verifier holder model that were probably familiar with in this group so that's what we did with the virtual.\
Nader Helmy: Is passport we being on the bottom there you'll see digit Airy.\
Nader Helmy: Men as well as.\
Nader Helmy: Matter so we'll kind of talk a little bit about how we collaborated to bring that to life the other major stakeholder on this project is a rug which is the association of registrar's and universities and colleges in Canada and this is really you know a broader organization across Canada that works to advance the educational goals of the of the Canadian kind of citizenry more broadly and my creds like I said.\
Nader Helmy: Is the project that kind of where all this has culminated and where we're.\
Nader Helmy: Piloting the use of digital credentials in a kind of new way that sort of complements the existing system and in many ways so it's kind of a hybrid solution so kind of the next few slides will explain a bit around what that actually means so the way that we're involved as I mentioned so matter products provide what we call building blocks for verifiable data and digital trust ecosystems so this covers.\
Nader Helmy: The typical kind of issue verify hold trust try.\
Nader Helmy: No that I mentioned before as well as the other layer of what we call ecosystem operations which are necessary to create secure and trusted interactions right so an ecosystem needs to communicate things like what are the common schemas that are being used that are being trusted how are issuers and bed and verifiers and other stakeholders kind of vetted or certified you know what are the expectations and rules and even down to like very basic things like kind of what standards do we greet.\
Nader Helmy: To use all the way up to kind of business logic and specific.\
Nader Helmy: Things like revocation and backup and recovery and that sort of thing so it's a big kind of interconnected web of choices right that that needs to be made in order to bring a verifiable credential or a digital credential ecosystem to life and I guess part of the that that process part of facilitating trust in an ecosystem is as I mentioned the process of developing Open Standards especially around what is the data that's being represented and how is it being.\
Nader Helmy: Conveyed and then how is it understood so these are kind of very basic.\
Nader Helmy: Turns out very hard to get right in a play in an area like education which is so diverse right and fragmented in many ways in terms of like the global approach to managing data its there's a really wide range there so you know we're you know excited about what we've built with my creds we think it has you know some advantages to like physical documents but again.\
Nader Helmy: It's that approach offers a.\
<tallted_//_ted_thibodeau_(he/him)_(> Link to this deck?\
Nader Helmy: Is kind of digitally native way to convey this information that's easy to share and convenient and we think provides like a good value proposition alongside the way that Learners engage with their academic records today so digitarium matter are both the technology Partners on this my creds VSP provide a platform and capabilities for my creds digital credentials.\
Nader Helmy: I am how are you this is not showing up for you guys.\
Nader Helmy: Okay but you can see the whole power that of all right an ideal but that's okay so so this is this is what I was the slide that I was talking about for the last few minutes or so and this was just the first one that I flipped from.\
Nader Helmy: So my creds are a look did you Terry matter virtual skills passport and then the kind of solution that we built here so how do our credentials work on a very high level essentially digit Airy offers a platform where academic credentials are issued by institutions into a digitally sign like they're issued as digitally signed PDFs into.\
Nader Helmy: To a students account.\
Nader Helmy: Which is this which is the my creds platform so they'll log into the my creds platform and will be able to view and interact with and share these digitally signed PDFs now what kind of matter has built as an integration essentially is that when students log into their microbes account there will be an option for them to download the credential to their digital wallet so this is a you know a separate thing that appears in their account and the student if they consent and opt in.\
Nader Helmy: Then they download the the matter wallet and then the VC is created an issue to their wallet.\
Nader Helmy: Which they can.\
Nader Helmy: Only use so it's this it's the system we're technically you know for those users who for whatever reason you know maybe they don't have a smartphone or maybe they don't have access to that the infrastructure or potentially for a myriad of other reasons they are they don't want to or unable to use the digital the verifiable credential option then they just kind of use the the microts platform as it exists today with those digitally sign PDFs but if they opt.\
Nader Helmy: Opt-in then they kind of get this the benefits of this additional.\
<simone_ravaioli> Link to the MyCreds Learner journey\
Nader Helmy: Credential journey in which enables them to do things like you know Port that data across context and share it on the web and early easy and kind of convenient fashion which is slightly more challenging with the existing system so I won't play it right this minute maybe we can go back at the end if so if we have time or you know will send this deck out as well but there's a whole video that kind of shows what the my creds learn our journey is.\
Nader Helmy: Kind of a.\
Nader Helmy: Planes essentially what I just described but in a much more Vivid detail with the actual UI ux that learner would see throughout that process.\
Kerri Lemoie: Yeah thanks money High later when question I have always here is about the digital signing budgetary and maybe some only plans for this to how how are the kids managed is there's did you carry sign on behalf of the participating institutions or are you managing all of their keys separately like how are you doing that in the system.\
Nader Helmy: Smart I do want to take this one away.\
<david_baumgartner@smarteduwallet> Who is the customer for MyCreds accounts? It is the student, or the issuing institution?\
Nader Helmy: So that yes so from I think from the verifiable credential perspective we offer basically the matter 7 platform is like a SAS platform I'm multi-talented stats platform so essentially that's what we exposed to digit Airy and so each really each institution each issue or has a separate tenant with a separate D ID and add a document and and kind of like.\
Nader Helmy: Their own identity in the in the system right so.\
<simone_ravaioli> @David, Post-secondary Institutions in Canada\
<david_baumgartner@smarteduwallet> Following up: Who is the customer for MyCreds accounts? It is the student, or the issuing institution? In other words, who pays for the account?\
Nader Helmy: How how we do it but again that that would be kind of separate from I think the potentially the question I think Kerry is sort of for the for the digitally sign PDFs portion how are the keys how are the keys managed and I believe the way that they're managed is that like essentially yeah did you Terry would kind of sign on behalf of Institutions but in a very similar way where they all have kind of separate public.\
Nader Helmy: Keys and are identifiable within the.\
Nader Helmy: In the ecosystem I could be wrong on that but someone it is that that ring that is a seem to resonate.\
Kerri Lemoie: Yeah and it was hard I want to hold us up I was actually speaking about how a matter does it is so the you're just managing the tenants need to tenant for the issuer contains all the key information for them then you're you're just handling that at matter.\
<simone_ravaioli> Institutions pay to onboard onto MyCreds\
Nader Helmy: Yeah so essentially okay yeah yeah the that when when an API is called so like when they're in the my creds platform and they choose to opt into this you know this Dental the credential to your digital wallet option it'll essentially kind of call our API right and an Arabic API will return the the credential signed by the the issuer's tenant so whatever college or university is like.\
Nader Helmy: Sponsible for that Learners record.\
Nader Helmy: And yeah and then essentially you know using that that system the the credential gets issued so that the the key management happens on the matter platform as well.\
Nader Helmy: Yep so I guess one on the explain a little bit around so why we think centers are important and and kind of what the approach is behind that I think you know it may be familiar to some of the folks in this room but I think fundamentally we believe that building on top of Open Standards is the way the kind of meet people where they are and Foster transparency both.\
Nader Helmy: Perrin C and.\
Nader Helmy: Action in an ecosystem so as mentioned earlier this means kind of defining you know a whole bunch of common you know standards and rules amongst those are things like how data is actually represented how it's secured and then how users can authenticate with that data and more so what we're really looking for with my creds specifically the microbes virtual skills passport was a way to have like a digitally native.\
Nader Helmy: Of Education record that could be defined.\
Nader Helmy: Using open data vocabularies so that was a big kind of design goal right partially because I think fundamentally that process of what these digital education records look like is is collaborative and is multi-stakeholder so like having that need to build something with an open data vocabulary was a big design goal as mentioned so ultimately the the virtual skills passport was.\
Nader Helmy: Built to support.\
Nader Helmy: Debbie 33 verifiable credentials with the schema being represented using json-ld so again kind of separate from the proof format layer but at the very least with the schema layer that it was a json-ld credential and we've kind of linked off to the GitHub we can find the the broader documentation here but specifically getting into what the credentials are and and how they show up we defined the Jason Aldean.\
Nader Helmy: See which is known in the my creds ecosystem as a micro credential I'm like put that in quotes because a lot of like a you know and we'll get it in this the next couple slides but they're you know is a really wide range of things in the broader Global education space that get referred to as on my credential and that is the case with a lot of these different terms in the education space so I'll turn.\
Nader Helmy: Native credentials digital credentials you know.\
Nader Helmy: You know learner wallets things like that they all get used in education space but often times to refer to a really broad range of of actual kind of Technologies and implementations so we'll get into that in a minute in terms of how we specifically you know want to tackle that problem but but essentially it is a micro credential in the my creds Network and what this vocabulary is really.\
Nader Helmy: Based on its adjacent only vocab but it's based on.\
Nader Helmy: Action of these pests which is the post-secondary education kind of Standards body there XML standards for college transcripts and academic credentials so we've linked to them here but these are existing credentials that in North America are widely used to to a very large extent and so there was I think a very practical this is.\
Nader Helmy: Just driven from very.\
<deb_everhart_(credential_engine)> CTDL definition of micro credential and its related linked data structure\
Nader Helmy: It to kind of design something on the digital credential side that would actually be used and would immediately be useful to all these institutions who had already adopted these existing pesky XML standard so we wanted to bring them along on the journey and and design this kind of next-gen experience in this was our attempt to do that and so we defined a vocabulary which is open source and you can find it here.\
Nader Helmy: Is linked to in the in this GitHub repo as well so this this is a you know a public vocab but really I don't think it's been you know probably shared two widely outside of the my creds ecosystem in some kind of education conferences and things like that so we really wanted to bring it to you know we wanted to bring it to frankly to the crowd of people who are you know already working on verifiable credentials for Education are invested.\
Nader Helmy: And care about this space.\
Nader Helmy: Not that those other areas of Engagement with other kinds of stakeholders aren't great but we think that this would be the place to actually.\
Nader Helmy: These ideas kind of in a slightly more efficient fashion and also that to iterate quickly you know we believe that there is.\
Nader Helmy: Part of this approach that we've taken let us to you know really taking a really broad look at what was out there and.\
Nader Helmy: With you know the landscape of Education credentials and trying to create a map of sort of what is happening and who's using wide and and and like what the different layers are and We've Come Away with a very sort of complex picture but one that we're hoping today we can sort of we can sort of Challenge and cut through the noise a little bit around you know what what might be a good balance between these different trade-offs.\
Nader Helmy: This is essentially what we've built and and you can find the links here.\
Nader Helmy: I guess kind of getting into that idea of what the challenges are we've divided them into like five categories here so we just wanted to talk about each of them for a moment and like why why they make the you know converging on a comic academic record or digital credential why they make that so difficult right so I think there's like a lot of complexity here but from the very start there's there is a lot of.\
Nader Helmy: Virgins around what the what the data in a credentials even meant to be modeling in the first place so is it simple is it complex is it sort of atomic or more dynamically updated and then like what actually is the credential so is it a course is it a skill is it a transcript is it a diploma is it something else so that's kind of maybe the obvious one but the very big one where there is no clear consensus you know looking.\
Nader Helmy: Looking at the global kind of education space around what the data is meant to be.\
Nader Helmy: This also kind of you know challenges around what the underlying technology technology being used for the data representation side right so look how does the data actually show up is in machine readable and like you know what what can consume it and you know for everything from XML to Json to be seized and more there's also like and this kind of gets to the the trust architecture.\
Nader Helmy: Discussion a bit and there's no real consensus around.\
Nader Helmy: A lives and how its managed so you know what is what is the actual architecture is it something that is user-centric where they have control and autonomy to maybe share an exercise their data sharing rights independently of an institution or is it institution Centric where potentially you know all of that data sharing lives on an institutions Platformers managed and facilitated by them right so you have a whole range of things in here everything from paper documents to web portal.\
Nader Helmy: Those two Central databases to digital wallets to decentralize data.\
Nader Helmy: It seemed like everything.\
Nader Helmy: Between so that's you know pretty pretty broad range of things we're actually talking about there.\
Nader Helmy: There's kind of what standards are being conformed to and that which layer right so we have all these different standards in education space that are intended for kind of oh in many cases overlapping but also distinct kinds of data so everything from clrs to open badges feces pest standards HR Open Standards europass learning model and kind of a whole bunch of stuff in between.\
Nader Helmy: So I think that is it.\
Nader Helmy: You kind of clear pressing the Eid which is that you know there is you know we've seen and recent years the that you know obviously this is nothing terribly new to some of the folks in this group and we've seen progress right like with things like see Lars and open badges with CRV to open badge b3u kind of adopting a more VC like approach or at least attempting to try to converge with that approach a bit.\
Nader Helmy: And and creating Provisions within those standards.\
Nader Helmy: Will to be.\
Nader Helmy: This is VCS but they're still clearly a gap right and there's still a gap in terms of the oh like connecting the the overarching efforts of these different groups in a coherent way they still kind of tell now remain largely speaking kind of generalizing a bit like as independent parallel tracks right so that is a challenge.\
Nader Helmy: And then.\
Nader Helmy: To finally not finally there there also you know a whole raft of other kinds of challenges but in terms of these main ones whether or not there is a digital security layer right and how the data is secured if so so you know a whole wide range here about is the data tamper evident at all is there a Content Integrity layer is their origin authenticity is they're both of those things so you know everything from digital signatures.\
Nader Helmy: No QR codes and Seaboard based.\
Nader Helmy: Credential representations like collect data proves jots the selector disclosure jwt's there's a whole kind of raft of competing things in this area and so that's another challenge and looking at these challenges we wanted to we didn't think we could address all of them to be frank but we think we thought we could partially try to address.\
Nader Helmy: Some of them primarily like.\
Nader Helmy: Let's get some.\
Nader Helmy: Common like the idea of what the data is meant to be modeling in the first place I think in on the sort of spectrum of simple to complex I think one of the key insights that we've had from working in this education space is the idea that there are so many stakeholders in education and there's such wildly different ecosystems and.\
Nader Helmy: Ian's in that.\
Nader Helmy: Kind of global landscape and they're all driven by very valid and like practical concerns right so at the very simplest level like there's differences in you know different jurisdictions and how they approach these problems but even kind of beyond that there's so much going on in terms of like education's connection to you know the global economy and like what that enables and because of that there's just such.\
Nader Helmy: Such a wide range.\
Nader Helmy: I've stuff out there but I think the the Insight in that is that.\
Nader Helmy: To trying to standardize or create a standard around something that's really complex.\
Nader Helmy: Is probably not the best way to go in the education space.\
Nader Helmy: As the more complexity that that this this object has the harder becomes four different institutions and stakeholders to to buy in and adopt that thing and and then you're also trying at the same time the more complex it gets you're trying to cater this digital document or its digital credential to be kind of everything to everyone right and and that doesn't really scale and that's I think why.\
Nader Helmy: It's so challenging to.\
Nader Helmy: To education stakeholders in our room and agree like that you know that this this is what we should be issuing and this is what we should be exchanging and using as something with meaning in our ecosystems so again kind of presenting this this humbly from appreciate that definitely it is an outsider perspective because we're we're fundamentally a technology company right we're not like matter is a technology company and did you Terry.\
Nader Helmy: As well.\
Nader Helmy: But we're we're not kind of wetted specifically to the education space but after kind of engaging and being in the space for a while now and really kind of taking a look at the landscape that is you know one of the things that emerge for us was that idea of Simplicity over complexity and what if we could what if we could all agree on something very simple and very like basic that could then be the could then be.\
Nader Helmy: Be connected and.\
<phil_barker> I love these comments on how diverse the education ecosystem is, and the implications for that.\
Nader Helmy: And sort of cumae accumulated and in different ways depending on an different stakeholders needs right so like something simple that can be that inbuilt into something more complex as needed but fundamentally the thing that should be the target sort of for interoperability it seems like is something that is very basic and simple right something Atomic and and that can be exchanged and understood with.\
Nader Helmy: Without a lot of overhead right so that that is that the.\
Nader Helmy: Sick proposition there.\
Nader Helmy: The next one is kind of you know what is the technology for data representation I think we've seen a lot of Promise in and Jason Aldean as like as a semantic kind of vocabulary layer and verifiable credentials clearly as the the envelope kind of make a lot of sense as well so I'm just kind of drawing some lines in the sand there and saying hey.\
Nader Helmy: Here's the.\
Nader Helmy: Using kind of as a default and we think that that that one isn't terribly controversial depending on sort of who you are but we're hoping in this in this group that that's hopefully not too controversial and then finally tagged trying to again not fully solve these problems but at least partially tackle this idea of this the standards Conformity and like cutting through the noise of all these standards that exist in trying to find.\
Nader Helmy: And trying to build something that we think leverages the best of.\
Nader Helmy: And so yeah and so any questions at this stage because we're going to talk a bit about what this all means or what we think kind of we should do about this of.\
Nader Helmy: Okay perfect yeah.\
Kerri Lemoie: Actually I wait till the Q&A aren't you kind of trip meter and we can all discuss thank you.\
Nader Helmy: Cool yeah awesome so what does this mean what do we do about this we're we think with a few simple and concise goals that that there's an opportunity here to cut through some of the noise and develop something which is simple and collaboratively constructed and and kind of Builds on the best practices for standards conformance that are out there today so.\
Nader Helmy: Sort of in.\
Nader Helmy: Of kind of their importance to the approach is the first is kind of leveraging the past XML standards which are widely in use today as inspiration for the semantics and utility of the credential so according to the national student Clearinghouse there were over 14 million pests college transcripts issued over the last five years which is huge it's some significant adoption right I think obviously the caveat here is that this is largely in North.\
Nader Helmy: Ah but the.\
Nader Helmy: Kind of adoption and utility around around the stuff in essentially what we did with the micro credentials vocab which is again open source was essentially leverage these pecs XML standards to to create what we think is pretty pretty simple vocab if you go in there you'll see like it is not terribly complex right but it was kind of the end it's a kind of a flat structure as well it's not like a lot of times you'll see in the.\
Nader Helmy: Typically with json-ld vocabs in this space like a lot of really complex uses of json-ld and nesting and different types and and kind of like potentially like a potentially over-engineered a bit right like is what you're seeing and a lot of these places and we've tried to build something which we think is you know doesn't try to boil the ocean but it's kind of simple right answer this simple pasta simplest possible representation of what.\
Nader Helmy: These standards are that are in use today that the second pillar of.\
Nader Helmy: On top of the micro credentials guidance that is being provided currently by legislators lawmakers and experts around the world around what data elements should be included in a micro credential I think the subtext for this for those who are fully aware is that is that my credentials are like a Hot Topic right in the education space kind of separate from VCS and digital credentials and and that whole thing like micro credentials are something that our institutions are already invested.\
Nader Helmy: Din for various reasons including Financial but also.\
Nader Helmy: Is kind of.\
Nader Helmy: Wave and education around this idea of kind of single assertion credentials right and and there's nothing about I mean there's a lot of implementations on micro credentials that are not what would someone would call decentralized or self Sovereign right if you know if you know what I mean like a lot of them are kind of hosted and managed by institutions but at the same time there is this push right like around what am I gonna credential is and institutions and experts in.\
Nader Helmy: Acres trying to like figure out what the.\
Nader Helmy: Like possible representation would be for what they're looking for and so there's a lot of guidance out there that we can draw on and this is I think an area that digit Harry about parchment has a lot of expertise and an a background in so kind of leveraging that guidance and then finally is is sort of synthesizing together these different json-ld vocabs that are being built by the community so we can all hopefully kind of come together and and model a simple my credential.\
Nader Helmy: Oh and the whole concept of my.\
Nader Helmy: Like I mentioned earlier is that is a single assertion credential I think one of the big winds that we could potentially do very early on is to try to essentially try to make that vocab that we're working on converge with or contain the simplest elements of an open badge we three the reason for this is because both my credentials and obv three are intended to be single assertion credentials now the way they go about doing that is quite different.\
Nader Helmy: Rent and you know I think that the.\
Nader Helmy: Credentials the way that we've implemented them and my creds are are like actually very simple and and OB B 3 is still a bit more structured and complex but we're hoping that we can sort of draw out the simplest elements from an OB B 3 and have that show up in a json-ld vocab as well as like like we mentioned before bring together you know different groups of people in the community that are already working.\
Nader Helmy: Working on.\
<deb_everhart_(credential_engine)> example of mapping PESC to CTDL\
Nader Helmy: Channel D vocabs and like let's try to build something simple together and we're hoping and we think that accomplishing the above will will help create what we call sort of an MVP for interoperability right and the education space so this sort of like yeah minimum viable thing that we can all work on to potentially you'll notice with each of these things you're bringing your bringing a different Camp of people to the table right and this one versus.\
Nader Helmy: Is this the sort of stakeholders you're bringing along.\
Nader Helmy: This one versus this one but I think all three really critical kind of sets of stakeholders and potentially could be very powerful kind of some greater than its parts sort of situation practically speaking what does this mean I think you know what we want to do essentially is contribute the work that we've done on our json-ld vocab around my credentials to the VC edu so it's already open source so so.\
Nader Helmy: It just kind of symbolic.\
Nader Helmy: To the table via this this presentation and kind of follow up with the these links and essentially contribute this work as a starting kind of point or one of the inputs rather for this proposed vocab and essentially gather support as we mentioned for a common json-ld vocab that represents the best of what's out there in the space today and kind of follows the three goals outlined in the previous.\
Nader Helmy: I'd and then bring this new verifiable.\
Nader Helmy: And make it an interoperable Target for jmf plugfest 3 because I think that would be a real opportunity to kind of come together and and and like show the work that we've done on this and demonstrate like how useful this idea can be potentially and again this is all motivated by like if you notice like we're not tackling things like the data management in the digital security layer these are.\
Nader Helmy: Are complex problems for other.\
Nader Helmy: We think that the thing that would really help education as a space really adopt credentials is trying to solve these problems in a kind of simple fashion so a simple but practical my credential that will be standards-based and a verifiable credentialed this is you know hopefully I single kind of single assertion common Atomic unit of data that can be combined and constructed in different ways but fundamentally is a simple thing that can be.\
Nader Helmy: Be shared and expressed and understood so.\
Nader Helmy: What is the.\
Nader Helmy: The idea behind what we're doing we're very keen to understand how this lens with all of you and you know what kinds of problems you care about in our thinking about if you think these are an appropriate set of trade-offs and if you think this work kind of is liable to continue into the future so yeah.\
<deb_everhart_(credential_engine)> thanks Nader!\
Kerri Lemoie: Yeah okay so I have a lot of thoughts about this Nader for is a lead really interesting that you guys have done this work and I understand the desire to try and simplify this bag this is why we originally proposed open badges being aligned with BC because we thought that was going to be the first one of the standards that would be the most simplest but but will you may have noticed by working with pass.\
Kerri Lemoie: Ask and other centers bodies is.\
Kerri Lemoie: Come from the business side of these organizations right and and unfortunately this is something we've had to deal with America the European learning model sort of branched out of that work to right it's like the more you try to the work we've been doing a VC had you said I was going to put the charger in here just so you understand where we are as a group as we've been doing the work that you're describing is trying to do this and honestly what has been has been a way to approach this.\
Kerri Lemoie: This is to be grateful for the existence of json-ld and thus a vote.\
Kerri Lemoie: So that all of these models co-exist but yet can be understood like perhaps like with a translation model in between all of them so that's one approach that I would leave in suggesting here so just you know that's what we've been talking about another thing is we're not it's a VCI do isn't a standards body we're just a task force we don't we don't have any standards we just sort of make recommendations as to what the standards bodies can do so.\
Kerri Lemoie: So I think it is really trust me I think was very interesting to come up with the most.\
Kerri Lemoie: A to express an achievement I think the world needs that but I think one thing to think about is where you going to do that right I'm going to discuss how is this going to be managed as a standard will be dead at Pasco which you know be great but it will be open work from local communities how will decisions be made what's the governance so there's like there's like those complexities that I know you're thinking of because you're like that start symbol but I just wanted to mention that as you get going with this.\
Nader Helmy: Yeah yeah absolutely like I think that's probably my number one question coming is group is knowing that it is a task force like and that correct me if I'm wrong I don't think we can like set up in like well I could be wrong but it may be not be like an IP protected workstream around this to to kind of collaborate on the vocab layer we think that because we're not you know.\
Nader Helmy: Like Reinventing a rehashing.\
Nader Helmy: The existing standards layer in other words like the core VC stuff and and the proof format like the the security layer and we're just focusing on semantics right like this whole thing is focusing on the semantic layer we're hoping that it's easier to work on then potentially some of this other stuff which so I don't know where the line is exactly in other words in terms of like what we could work potentially like at the vce to you on like set up a kind of work stream.\
Nader Helmy: Or those interested in.\
Nader Helmy: Like what would be the boundaries of that thing or is it just that any any work very substance would have to have a different home I don't know these are questions.\
Kerri Lemoie: Yeah these are those are things that have to be thought through and maybe this is the called the day of we could talk about it in the future if you'd like and then I see Devin feel broker a credential engine queued up and they've been working a lot on properties for credentials from their mission to leave it to them for a little while but thank you for being here today either appreciate it.\
Nader Helmy: Absolutely yeah I'm very keen to hear from the others.\
Deb_Everhart_(Credential_Engine): Thanks and thank you neither this is really useful I just wanted to double what Carrie just said about Thanking us for json-ld because the the linked data lets you connect two additional complexity as much or as little as you need you know I often say that the ctd L is usefully complex with over 900 terms in that link data structure and no one's going to use.\
Deb_Everhart_(Credential_Engine): all of it so if you have a very simple.\
Deb_Everhart_(Credential_Engine): Nation of a micro credential you're not likely to have very good transparency because there are so many different interpretations of what micro-credentials represent an increase so to be able to have references to linked data that illuminates as much of that as is useful to meet the use cases is a I think a really elegant solution.\
Nader Helmy: Thank you yeah no I definitely agree this idea of like the additional complexity is there if you need it or want to use it we think is absolutely the approach I guess I guess the question I have would have for you is sort of like what is the.\
Nader Helmy: What is the simplest thing that we can all agree on essentially right because even in that world they're sort of almost needs to be like a like some line that we can draw and say below this line we all agree right like we are all using the same thing because if we're building fundamentally on different kind of starting points it's very hard to like like you like you like caring mentioned earlier you need like a translation or like a mapping layer that separate like that is actually very non-trivial.\
Nader Helmy: To build right like very very difficult so.\
Nader Helmy: Fleet seems like a big win would be like what and what if the simplest possible thing we can all agree on and maybe it's like something that is for Fields right like something that is exceedingly I don't know what it is but like you know yeah.\
Deb_Everhart_(Credential_Engine): Yeah I would say it's actually even simpler than that I mean what we're advocating for is that the digital credential will be cro be has has a CT ID that links to uses linked data to link to see TBL doesn't need to be in our registry it can be cgl that's anywhere and then that link data you know people can follow that link.\
Deb_Everhart_(Credential_Engine): link and learn more about it but also.\
Deb_Everhart_(Credential_Engine): Stems can follow that link to pull the data that they need and if the data they need isn't there then it's failed to use case but it has provided his added no additional complexity to the digital credential other than adding the link to the link data does it make sense.\
Nader Helmy: Yeah yeah yeah that does make sense.\
Nader Helmy: Yeah I think we're very keen to stay very close and connected to past throughout this process and kind of any insights that were end and kind of progress that were able to make with this crowd to kind of bring back to pest I think as well like the as mentioned you know I'm from matter and we were working with digit area on this project and I believe someone to correct me if I'm wrong that there are.\
Nader Helmy: Digitarium members on that Jason.\
Nader Helmy: It could be running that but I believe that's the case so there's connection point there in like very much like we want this to be one thing and not to be two separate things right.\
<deb_everhart_(credential_engine)> badge publisher tool provides a simple way of adding CTDL links to badges, and this strategy is applicable to any digital credentials even though this tool focuses on Open Badges\
Nader Helmy: Awesome thank you for having me and and invited me in to speak and I'm will share this deck kind of after the fact and very keen to I don't know we'll figure out a way to kind of gauge interest in in this right people who want to work on this kind of thing and are interested in it we'll figure it out maybe it's the mailing list maybe it's hopefully not another wedding let's maybe we'll figure out a more elegant way to do that kind of gauge who's interested.\
Nader Helmy: Added and yeah take it from there but we're very young.\
Nader Helmy: You know this work and where we've been following closely what's going on in this working group as well and very you know like like interested in and what you guys are doing and the kinds of problems you guys are trying to tackle because we think we're is a lot of certainly a lot of overlap there.\
Kerri Lemoie: Oh yeah not a question I'll be real quick I made her feel free to leverage this group I know I mentioned earlier that we create a special topic group for the enrollment status credential anyone in this community is welcome to create a special topic group so if you'd like to do that let's talk about that we can help you set that up you can use our mailing list like you can leave MW3 resources to do this if you'd like so let's talk some more about it.\
Nader Helmy: Yeah that would be awesome.\
Kerri Lemoie: If we may not be like we're not really a standards group but you could do the work.\
Kerri Lemoie: And then figure that.\
Kerri Lemoie: After all right so okay thank you.\
Nader Helmy: Okay perfect will do.\