The W3C Credentials Community Group

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VC for Education Task Force

Transcript for 2023-07-24

Our Robot Overlords are scribing.

Topic: IP Note

Dmitri Zagidulin: What if you want to make substantive contribution to this or any other CG work item you must be members of w3c's credentials community group with the IP our agreement signed if you'd like to contribute and haven't signed the agreement yet ping one of the chairs or just reach out to anyone will help you get started.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Call is recorded the minutes on the recording will be archived over at the ccg meetings repository on GitHub we use jitsi chat or IRC to queue up the speakers and to add yourself to the queue type the character q and plus to add yourself to the queue.
Dmitri Zagidulin: So if you raise your hand and jitsi that also adds you to the queue very convenience.
Dmitri Zagidulin: I'll next up let's move to introductions and range reductions is anyone new to the call the ones to introduce themselves.

Topic: Introductions and Reintroductions

Dmitri Zagidulin: And also does make me want to do the reintroduction you haven't reintroduced in a long time and we've got a lot of new people coming in for the plugfest.
<sharon_leu> @Manu, it is bloodfest though
Dmitri Zagidulin: Ain't nothing anyone let's go to announcements and reminders does anybody have any Community announcements.

Topic: Announcements and Reminders

Manu Sporny: Yeah just a quick update on what's going on in the verifiable credential working group just on last Friday there was sorry I'm trying to get a link to it quick CLG I just last Friday there was an announcement about demonstration of support for the.
<manu_sporny> Data Integrity Selective Disclosure:
Manu Sporny: Like to disclosure schemes so putting that in chat now data and Peg would be selective disclosure disclosure schemes there we had a number of organizations including Global standards organization so like one edtech from the education Community connects us from the retailer community in gs1 from the supply chain community.
Manu Sporny: Coming out in support of selective disclosure for ecdsa as well as a number of implementers MIT DC Randa identify VCI Flash and so on and so forth Arkansas Bordello from Dan UTech so there are pull requests that have been opened on the select on the ecdsa repository in the verifiable credential working group.
Manu Sporny: Whoop and we're looking for Community feedback on those.
Manu Sporny: And that's it for that item the other item that's a heads up is that in this is I guess pertinent to the discussion today a new version of the chappie playground has been rolled out into the live site it supports we believe the feature set necessary for plugfest 3 so it can do.
Manu Sporny: Issuance multiple verification you can present multiple credentials at the same time right now it supports everything that plugfest one and plugfest to supported as well as some new features that plugfest three needs it supports still multiple issuer backends and multiple verifier back ends that might have some.
Manu Sporny: Sniff occurrence on the.
Manu Sporny: The question that my Pro Rock had on the mailing list about how do you get headless wallets and issuers and verifiers working with plugs Miss three and we are adding support for oid for VCI and the new feature the other new features that it supports as support for Native wallets as well as web-based wallets using.
Manu Sporny: Bible presentation request.
Manu Sporny: I know that was a whole stream of like new features that it has we will summarize those and send them to the mailing list sometime this week that's it.
<kerri_lemoie> Thanks, Manu!
Dmitri Zagidulin: Wonderful thank you so much Manu it's anybody else want to make an announcement.
Dmitri Zagidulin: All right I guess I'll do some quick reminders we've got some good Community conferences relevant to this crowd coming up in September we have rebooting web of trust in Cologne Germany on September 19 through 20 seconds the week before that is w3c tpack which is the technical technical planning architecture committee.
Dmitri Zagidulin: In Seville Spain.
<phil_t3> ASU signed the SD data integrity support doc, as well ;-)
Dmitri Zagidulin: Before that actually is a very first instance of a new conference this is distributed Web Camp spreading into Brazil so this is the first time do webcam Brazil is happening so if you're in the area you should definitely come by and then of course in October 10 through 12 we have our W and V plugfest 3 is going to be held there the day before so I looked over.
<manu_sporny> Thank you to ASU for their support! :)
Dmitri Zagidulin: So let's move on to our name topic which is.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Technical questions for plugfest 3.

Topic: Plugfest 3 Technical Question

Topic: Plugfest #3 Technical Questions

Dmitri Zagidulin: We have a couple of questions brought up on the mailing list thread in preparation.
Dmitri Zagidulin: For for the skull one from Mike Pro Rock Mike are you on the call.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Possibly not and then we had another set of questions from Neal's and some did Cam related questions from Mario so if you have I seen eels on here and I see re also go please let yourselves to the Q&A.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Go ahead.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Thanks Nilsa all excellent questions firstly let's remind everyone that for aside from Big questions like this that we can talk about in the mailing list during calls like this day-to-day coordination between the various testing communities the VCI the open ID Connect Four.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Issuance and.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Their final presentations All Those Questions great place to ask them is the is the plugfest three slack channel so if you do use slack please reach out to to Sharon and we'll get you set up and added to those slack generals so maleness plaque channel two main questions to ask exactly these kind of questions as they come up after today's call.
Dmitri Zagidulin: All so.
<sharon_leu> Send me a message if you need to be added to Plugfest3 slack!
Dmitri Zagidulin: The purpose of the plugfest and Sharon please feel free to jump in here and elaborate is to demonstrate interoperability not to a particular spec but within a community right so for example for plugfest one and to be open as you connect participants we're using I believe the ngi Atlantic interoperability profile and since then the in our profile.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Work has.
<kerri_lemoie> Can also use the vc-edu listserv. Archives and subscribe mailto link here:
Dmitri Zagidulin: Continued we have some new profiles so my recommendation would be and again Sharon please please feel free to jump in that we we asked the the current set of interrupt profile since that's going to be the largest presumably the largest community of interoperable software.
Dmitri Zagidulin: I carry a Sharon do you wanna go ahead mom.
Manu Sporny: I'd like to hear from Carrie and Sharon first before I go sorry.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Okay great yep not a problem not a problem.
Dmitri Zagidulin: No that's okay.
Sharon Leu: Sorry unmute problems that yes Dimitri I think I think that's right this is a community interrupt demonstration we want people to principally work together I think we are agnostic about which particular version or set but we want this to be the set that are most commonly used by the participants of the best three that like even if it's not the most current or if it is or if it is.
Sharon Leu: I like the.
Sharon Leu: That the agreement that people have chosen it because they think that it's the best thing for the community and also I think part of this is to be a little bit experimental so that we can have an opportunity to test out like what works and what doesn't work and recorded so that the people who including people in plugfest and on this call who are working on the various specs can take that data and make improvements that ultimately.
Sharon Leu: We will make it more robust.
Dmitri Zagidulin: So I see Ariella Hugh before before we get to you I want to make sure that we answer Nils is other questions on the mailing list which is probably no that's that's not.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Yeah yeah so which is how do you prove the requirements of plugfest one because in order to participate in three you have to have sort of demonstrated that you went through stages one and two and because plugs last one was about displaying a credential in the wallet question naturally arises that if you have a API side or system side wallet how do you display a credential especially the image part.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Ice if there is no.
Dmitri Zagidulin: And that's a that's a great question I'd love to hear from the community both wallet implementers and of course Sharon and the other organizers all right so let's easiest way to do this is let's go to the queue so Ariel go ahead you're up next.
Ariel_Gentile: Yeah hi everyone yeah I think that my question is already answered by you by but yeah because men mostly what I wanted to know is about what we are implementers of did calm so we wanted to know if we needed to support the vidcom V1 which is the one that came from from Ares Community or the V2 which is the one that has been.
Ariel_Gentile: transferred on unpublished.
Ariel_Gentile: A suspect in the diff so may I think from from what you answered before is that we should ask on the slack channel right to see what I mean to to coordinate with with the community to see which which versions We we are going to use in the plugfest.
Ariel_Gentile: I'm correct.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Yeah that that's exactly it yeah I think everybody understands that in any of these protocols supporting all of the versions especially going backwards in time is not feasible so yeah we definitely expect the community to pick a subset that they're comfortable supporting.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Thank you Monty go ahead.
<sharon_leu> @ariel It might be helpful to see what people used for plugfest2:
Manu Sporny: Yeah it's coming has to do with the kind of headless API driven verifiable credential you know ecosystem participants in plugfest to we added support in the chappie playground which is which is getting renamed to the verifiable credentials playground because we're going to support oid for and chappy and VC API.
Manu Sporny: I am.
Manu Sporny: Well for us to also support did calm but we need you know people to work with and in order to do that one of the things we did in the in on Wiz we enabled people to provide issuer back-end systems like issuing systems Engine Systems so if people remember from plugfest to we had like 17 plus issuers that provided back in infrastructure you could select from a list so you could pick like the jmf plugfest.
Manu Sporny: Seneschal and then you could pick one of many issuing back.
Manu Sporny: To issue that.
Manu Sporny: Into a digital wallet in at least that's how some people you know provided or demonstrated support for subset of the ecosystem like the back end providers were able to plug in as issuers the chappie you know playground we see playground has been updated so that people can plug in back and verify our systems and that would support what mic Pro Rock I think is is asking for the only.
Manu Sporny: Problem there is the.
Manu Sporny: To be able to display a verifiable credential so it's kind of like is that a requirement that I think the question is is that a requirement for back and service providers to participate in the plugfest because that's typically only done in wallets it's not done in the you know the parts of the ecosystem that they're providing access to it so what I'm trying to say is it is totally possible to provide you know back end.
Manu Sporny: From a technical perspective it is totally.
Manu Sporny: To provide back and issuing platforms and back and verification platforms but it's not clear if people can participate in the plugfest in that capacity that's.
Dmitri Zagidulin: A great question and it sounds like carry on the Queue is getting into answer that Manu as a.
Manu Sporny: Yes yep yeah let me let me get that set up.
Dmitri Zagidulin: If it's at all possible would it be about would you be able to demo the current state of verifiably prevent credentials playground in case some of the implementers are haven't picked a method yet excellent alright so we'll give you a minute to prepare here you're up next.
Kerri Lemoie: Thanks soup I'm going to give me is he probably won't laugh and that's that this series of protests really has to do with clothes all right this is the these three public restroom really very specifically have to do with interactions with wallets and this is just because of what jmf is working towards so that is our Focus for these slugfests it doesn't mean that system to system transactions can happen we'd love to see it but as far as like.
Kerri Lemoie: The official participation in the podcast it should follow.
Kerri Lemoie: B and used wallets and way that Sharon's describe the requirements.
Kerri Lemoie: Does that.
Dmitri Zagidulin: To to add to that I am really curious to ask the system wallet agent like implementers.
Dmitri Zagidulin: So that does do those wallets really have no user interface in which case how do users interact with them and and what are the use cases that these walls are targeting.
Dmitri Zagidulin: At Neil's go ahead.
<manu_sporny> Supply Chain VCs don't use Wallets for much of their work, just FYI... fully automated flows.
<manu_sporny> They do use UIs for management... Supply Chain is largely machine-to-machine.
<manu_sporny> So, maybe instead of saying "Wallet" you can say "UI"
<manu_sporny> (that is, the supply chain VCs /are/ rendered at some point on a management UI)
<phil_t3> Sounds like this might suggest a further elaboration of the plugfest framework for services provided to wallets, that is, assuming that more wallets develop service APIs for plugging in service features.
<sharon_leu> That's right. I guess we should have actually asked - in the vc-edu use cases, would this be necessary.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Thanks hon unfortunately I don't think my Croc is on the call but will pursue the conversation on the mailing list so Manu in in the GT chat is pointing out that the supply chain ecosystem for if I were Naturals does not use a.
<manu_sporny> Just an idea... not married to it... just trying to help :)
Dmitri Zagidulin: Does not have like a graphical user interface a lot of the workflows are done in batches are machine to machine and so Manu is proposing that we use the term instead of saying wallets you can say you I I'm not sure I agree with that because we are talking about wallets as a repository of right again this sort of goes in to verify the credentials data model philosophy and discussion of okay.
Dmitri Zagidulin: So what's what is actually wallet how do we Define it.
Dmitri Zagidulin: I think for this type of blood tests it makes sense to Define wallets as repositories of learner work or credentials.
Dmitri Zagidulin: That's Lord them on behalf of natural persons and where issuers can add credentials into them and then on the other end which is what plugs S3 is about verifiers can ask for credentials from from those repositories.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Let's see who's who's on the queue as I see Carrie I think I think that's up from previous lessons you have another comment and Mano.
Dmitri Zagidulin: All right I got mine.
<sharon_leu> That's right. This work is funded to support the VC-EDU use cases, that is learner and workers. We describe it more fully:
<niels_klomp_-_sphereon> I think the idea behind JFF Plugfests is to enable people, so that is not really M2M
Manu Sporny: All right um I think you had asked for kind of a showing where the current infrastructure is for chappie playground soon to be renamed the BT playground let me see if I can share my screen can folks see this.
Kerri Lemoie: +1 Niels
Manu Sporny: Okay so for those of you that are new to the plugfest is one of the kind of infrastructure systems we use to demonstrate interop both in Phase 1 and Phase 2 chappie stands for the credential Handler API which is a very confusing name because it's supposed to support or he does support all of the protocols meaning.
Manu Sporny: You can h.
Manu Sporny: Previously you could only use VC API in verifiable presentation request to initiate exchanges with chappie chappies been upgraded this thing has been upgraded now to support open ID flows and we're starting to work with folks to work on did Cam flows as well so chappies agnostic to the type of protocol in the type of messages that that move over to it that move over it.
Manu Sporny:
Manu Sporny: There's a bunch of documentation here so if you go to chappy dot IO there's a bunch of documentation here on how you can integrate with it to do open Wallet selection there's write-ups for if you're a verifiable credential issuer or if you're a digital wallet which is probably pertinent to this current iteration of Fest and if your verifier there's also a fact that we ended up having to write during the last plugfest to try and support as many and implementers as.
Manu Sporny: Also just go to chappie die oh that's how you get to this site that I'm demonstrating.
Manu Sporny: Able to run through this exact demo there when you click on try the chappy playground this is the new update that we've added to support plugfest three so before all you could do was like issue credentials using multiple ensure back ends now the thing that's new today is this verifier demo so the ability to do multi-shot verification so if you are a.
Manu Sporny: Digital wallet provider you can.
Manu Sporny: Select multiple you know credentials to request from the wallet and then that is delivered in one shot to the verifier the verifier looks at the verifiable presentation and looks at the BCS and verifies all of that so I think and please correct me if I'm wrong that you know this is what is required this is at least one infrastructure that's required to demonstrate success in plugfest 3.
Manu Sporny: So there's this site this is the.
Manu Sporny: For structure site.
Manu Sporny: And then I'm just going to use various wallet to do the demo a day we have run this demo using other wallets that pass plugfest through to in a subset of them do also pass plugfest 3 now but they have some kind of small UI glitches so that we didn't want to put people on the spot you know if we were going to demo this so okay so let me launch into the demo here I'm going to issue.
Manu Sporny: Shoo I guess plugfest 3 requires.
Manu Sporny: It's really sees all su3 VCS and then request those three VCS from the wallet so the first step here is you go to the issuer demo in you select the VC that you want to issue one of the VCS I think is the is the permanent resident card VC this environment lets you do did author or not so.
Manu Sporny: Some wall.
Manu Sporny: Got some don't but I'm going to go ahead and demo with did auth sign in with your did sorry this is the wallet selection screen that chappy provides it supports both native wallets and web-based wallets it is protocol agnostic so if your wallet supports oid for VCI it can show up here if you have a native wallet it can show up here if you have web-based wallet it shows up here so this is this will show any wallet.
Manu Sporny: Supporting any protocol.
Manu Sporny: Click on remember my choice for this site so we don't see the wallet selectors throughout the rest of the demo but I'll go ahead and click the wallet that I want to do the demo with this is basically asking me if I want to authenticate so it's the website this is the wallet interface popping up and saying hey this website chappie playground issuer would like you to authenticate I click authenticate and then imma authenticated in the chappie playground using data with it generates an issues.
Manu Sporny: Use the credential the permanent resident card that I asked for.
Manu Sporny: You can kind of look.
Manu Sporny: At you know what credential was issued here and then when I click store in wallet again chap you pops up my wallet pops up and asked me to store this credential in my wallet so I go ahead and click store in wallet and that's the issuance process so if I go over to my wallet which was empty before and I refresh it the permanent resident card shows up in the wallet there.
Manu Sporny: So I'm going to go through that two more times.
Manu Sporny: Plug fits three I guess requires two more credentials I'll do jmf plugfest to badge and then dude it off again this is annoying and repetitive I think we're going to try and integrate it into the site itself so you only have to do it all at once so I'm going to store the Joe plugfest to badge and so if I refresh here.
Manu Sporny: I see.
Manu Sporny: Plugfest to badge in the the government of Utopia credential so here's the plugfest to badge and then let's do a Workforce skills credential it's safe Chef certified this is a food safety credential so I'll issue that into the wallet do a did othe stored in the wallet.
Manu Sporny: And then say yes.
Manu Sporny: So I want to store it in the wallet okay so that was basically what we did in plugfest to in plugfest 3 is where we use this new interface the verifier demo.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Can Mom can you pass that adjust I just want to highlight so how what Mana demonstrated there are sort of the prerequisites that we expect participants for plug this 32 also be able to fulfill to pass the plugs as to which means get a credential into your wallet using one of the recognized Community Open Standards which is V Capi open I do.
Dmitri Zagidulin: For VC issuance and.
Dmitri Zagidulin: I did come to so that that bit the part where mono just use it to provision potentials into the wallet those are steps you want to pass yourselves as well go ahead and 10.
Manu Sporny: Gamers on the Queue I don't know if we want to take question.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Yeah go ahead Bama.
Dmitri Zagidulin: I think you might be muted though.
Dmitri Zagidulin: All right Guillermo feel free to unmute at any point in time and ask you a question so go ahead go ahead Mountain.
Manu Sporny: Okay I guess the other thing we'll do is a verifier demo the one thing to point out about the issue or demo is while I demonstrated web-based wallet it works for Native wallets as well the Integrations uses the URL Handler to do that so we're typing up the instructions on how to do that now but chappie supports both web and Native and is protocol.
Manu Sporny: Stick in query language.
Manu Sporny: I'll stick the next thing is the verifier demo so this is new for plugfest 3 in what the verifier UI looks like here is it allows you to multi-select credential so it says you can usually just do you know like one at a time but the verifier demo allows you to multi-select to say I want a permanent resident card and I want to plugfest to credential and I want a safe Chef certification so in a single shot you can.
Manu Sporny: Do a request for three types of credentials and then the.
Manu Sporny: Theory pops up with a UI that allows you to say which one of those credentials to send over if not all of them and then it's sent over so this happens pretty quickly but what I'm doing here is I'm selecting three credentials on the chappie playground saying that I want to receive those from a wallet I click the button the wallet pops up it receives the request in provides an interface that allows me to multi-select the.
Manu Sporny: Essentials and in this case the wallet implements like.
<heather_carle_(territorium)> So the requirement for PF is to support 3 wallet import requests at one time? Not do them individually?
Manu Sporny: Already makes the selection for the individual and then they can choose to actually send them over or not so when I click share that set of credentials will be sent back to the verifier playground and as you can see here there are three verifiable credentials one two three and if I open them up there the credentials that I asked for so the permanent resident card the jmf plugfest to badge in the.
Manu Sporny: The this is what is it.
Manu Sporny: Safety certification sorry right there food safety certification credential so the infrastructure here receives all the VCS receives the verifiable present presentation and then checks the proof on the presentation and checks the proof on all the verifiable credentials to make sure that it's all it's all right and then it'll give a rat you know a presentation verified thing down here at the bottom.
<kayode_ezike> @Manu, was that request delivered to the wallet as a Verifiable Presentation Request? What does that request look like?
Dmitri Zagidulin: Wait one sec what's the while we're roller at the screen and looking at the presentation I want to highlight the fact that we are asking for did authentication for the wallet to perform data authentication when handing over the credentials which just means we want.
Dmitri Zagidulin: The wallet to sign.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Bundle of credentials that it hands over to the relying party with a proof purpose authentication exactly like it using whatever key sweet you using and whichever different credential proof serialization method you're using but we do we do expect the presentation to be signed by go ahead Manos.
Dmitri Zagidulin: But I'll accept you talking we lost audio.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Cause you're muted yep noise.
<sharon_leu> @Heather, are you referring to issue or verify?
Manu Sporny: Sorry I figured on me apologies so in the plugfest one and two we used did key so we support did key today we also support various one but I don't think anyone's going to you know I think everyone's using dead key to kind of demonstrate interop at this point we can put in support for other did methods but you know there needs to be a community of people that are like we really want to use X or Y the.
Manu Sporny: I don't know you know because.
<niels_klomp_-_sphereon> For PF2 and OID4VCI did:jwk was used
Manu Sporny: Well I'll just stop there are putting in other did methods will require more work its work we're willing to do as long as enough you know implementers want to want to do that or there is there any guidance on like.
Manu Sporny: Did methods You're Expecting when they thought is being done.
<heather_carle_(territorium)> Both. I'm trying to be clear, we need import 3 to our wallet (at the same time) and then also issue 3 to be verified? Just trying to be clear.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Great question so we we pulled the participants for which did method they're planning to support and so we have we have the usual distribution the most common ones I believe are being did key did jwk as Neo points out a lot of the open ID connect for VCI folks we're using digital BK 4 plus 2 and then of course did web is the third major popular one.
Dmitri Zagidulin: And Sharon just.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Posted the link to the spreadsheet of the participant responders in chats so go ahead and take a look you should be able to gauge on which ones.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Our popular Heather in chat is asking this is a great question because it's come up in other venues as well does the wallet need to handle the request for multiple credentials in one go.
<azeem> How is the participation of VC verifier ?
Dmitri Zagidulin: Or is it okay for the verifier for the relying party to ask three different times for a single credential and part of the reason that's relevant is some of the discussion in the open ID Community where a number of the participants were wondering can we get away with just with constraining the verified presentation spec or just the way to see for VP.
Dmitri Zagidulin: It's back to 0.
<azeem> is it possible to participate without a holder wallet .
Dmitri Zagidulin: One credential at a time so is it is it is sort of in the in the letter or the spirit of the plugfest to either ask for two or three at a time or have the request to be sequential and and I'll let Sharon and mono and carry speak to that.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Then yeah k.o.d. by the queue as well so who wants to wants to handle this one.
Manu Sporny: How about let me wrap this up and then the hand it over to Carrie not me how about I wrap this up and then handed over to Carrie and Sharon to talk about in general what one thing I really wanted to make sure is that people Brian Richter has done fantastic work on this I wanted to acknowledge you know his great work putting the verifier Parts in the playground and getting that up and running he's been working for months.
Manu Sporny: It's to make it happen so thank you very much Brian for.
Manu Sporny: That stuff together.
<dmitri_zagidulin> @Aseem - what kind of software are you hoping to enter the plugfest with?
Manu Sporny: The only thing I didn't mention here was the ability to set select multiple back-end issuers and multiple back-end verifiers but I'm hearing that that is not a focus you know this time around we want to focus on the wallets thing so I'm going to stop sharing and then go back into the background at this point.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Excellent okay and as you may see your question about without holder wallet but we'll get back to that in just a second so let's see who wants to do pants yeah so carries on the Queue go ahead and then I'll share my thoughts on this as well go ahead Carrie.
<phil_t3> If this is to test the VP process which is intended to batch together a credential stack, wouldn't that make a single credential per exchange out of scope?
Kerri Lemoie: Hey there you know for once everybody I'm actually sitting next to Sharon person because I'm in Boulder Colorado badge Summit so we were just chatting about this because he hadn't actually really discussed this so I'm glad you brought it up Heather so the preference is that the credentials be combined in a presentation and that's because it's a it's a better user experience right you'd rather be that okay these are the credentials you need go to those credentials packaging them up and return them back so ideally.
Kerri Lemoie: It be packaged together in the presentation.
<heather_carle_(territorium)> Ok thanks
Dmitri Zagidulin: Alex C so chaotic go ahead you're next.
Kayode Ezike: So this is a question from Manu and so I was wondering for the verifier demo that you just showed kind of what the format of the request looks like is it going to be something like a verifiable presentation request when you click on that button to request the credentials from the wallet or and and it's so what would that look like.
Manu Sporny: Yeah excellent question so it depends on the protocol so that the chappie playground /vc playground is protocol agnostic depending on the the mechanism that is picked me try to be more specific so we're trying to be a protocol agnostic in so if you're using let me do issuance.
Manu Sporny: For example if.
Manu Sporny: ID for BCI then the request will come over using that mechanism one way that it can happen is a VPR can talk about interaction modes and it can list like I support issuance using the C API and oid for VP and did come in based on that you know message that the wild guess.
Manu Sporny: Yes it can.
Manu Sporny: Which protocol it wants to use to do the issuance process so that's documented right now and we are open to changes or modifications you know based on what the community needs so we're trying to make this infrastructure responsive to like what the community needs to demonstrate interrupt so if that doesn't work for people like please you know let everyone know on the on the dev Channel or on the mailing list and then we can try and make modifications.
Manu Sporny: Coyote did that answer your question it's so sorry that was the General answer the more specific answer that you asked was like for the verified demo for presentations we only so I think what's being said is the presentations are expected to be multi-shot presentations meaning that when you present the thing to the verifier you are expected to have three verifiable credentials.
Manu Sporny: He's in there in one shot it's.
<kerri_lemoie> That's correct, Manu.
Manu Sporny: At one and then present the second one and then present the third one we only know how to do that in a verifiable presentation request so verifiable presentation supports it verifiable presentation request support said we don't know how the community wants to do that with oid for VP yet and we're looking for the oid for VP Community to propose something so that we.
Manu Sporny: I can build that in the playground so.
<nikos_voutsinas> Is the deployment of CHAPI a prerequisite for this PF3?
Manu Sporny: Again to be to be clear the yd 4 VC VC I is fairly straightforward because I think everyone said like you expect people to pick those credentials up one at a time and oid for VCI supports that however oid for VP I don't know if there is a profile today that supports Multi Shot presentation I think the underlying presentation exchange object supports it but I don't know what the communities using for.
Manu Sporny: For multi-shot presentation with oid for VP.
<kayode_ezike> Great, thanks for clarifying that @Manu
Dmitri Zagidulin: I believe I believe that's currently being finalized by the combination of diff and 084 VP community so previously they were using presentation exchange version 2 I believe they're racing to finalize another.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Iteration of presentation exchange of simplified iteration presentations change let's say 2.1.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Things like using it in front bloodfest 3 let's see who else is on the Queue Sharon go ahead.
Sharon Leu: I don't actually have much something to add I was just going to say that like you I think that like this is a complicated issue and I would hate for us to be sort of setting down precedent for doing something that ultimately is not sort of good for the long-term like sort of vision of like this particular protocol so I feel like even though for us the presentation which is the package of individual credentials is sort of the goal.
Sharon Leu: Goal if 2.12.
<niels_klomp_-_sphereon> I can comment on PE 2.1 etc
Sharon Leu: Quickly enough or if there are other sort of intermediary solutions that the community wants to try out on the way to that sort of more perfect specification then we can entertain that I think that this is certainly to carries point because we see the creation of the verifiable presentation as the way that it's technically manifests our functional use case which is a lot of the use cases that are either in the VC use case document or the VC Andrews case stuff.
Sharon Leu: Doing that which is individuals bundling a set of credentials for.
Sharon Leu: I'm kind of.
Sharon Leu: That's like an application to a job or an institution so we certainly want to get there as a goal and we understand that there are some Club complexity in there and we do want to work with you on figuring out what is the best solution for everyone on this call and then for the long ride so I just wanted to say that there's not really I'm not like adding anything to the technical conversation just sort of describing our functional use case but it seems I'm I don't know if that is helpful that I see meals with his hand up and say I wonder if Neil's wanted to contribute to that.
Sharon Leu: As well.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Meals to you I thank you so much for clarifying do you remember in the did come to world.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Is it not fairly common to be able to request multiple credentials in okay yeah.
Dmitri Zagidulin: I'm in any other questions that people have that we can answer in the next 8 minutes that we have.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Excellent that means we've answered all questions no so we encourage obviously we have a couple of these open discussions about what are we considering.
Dmitri Zagidulin: As headless wallets and whether such a thing can exist on the learner worker level.
Dmitri Zagidulin: After this this notion of what do the open ID for VP folks do far from multiple credentials that that's still sort of discussion so we're going to continue these conversations on the mailing list and in the slack Channel and of course.
Dmitri Zagidulin: I'm not sure.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Sharon and Kari and I are planning another one of these plugfest specific VC edu calls before September.
<kerri_lemoie> We can if folks want it
<niels_klomp_-_sphereon> For OID4VP it has to be 1 VP with multiple credentials, as there would be no way to connect multiple presentation definitions together
Dmitri Zagidulin: Yeah so Carrie mentions in chat that we can schedule another one of these calls if there's a demand for it Kerry guide.
<manu_sporny> Agree with Niels... unless server keeps state.
Kerri Lemoie: There's only wondering in terms of this oid see for those of you who are using that when would be a good time good timing for us to make a final decision on it because it sounds like we don't know when the decisions will be made and chewy yeah I just want to put you all they make you wait on us for this so let us know when you think you really want to know the answer by we'll just go with that for this podcast just so you're not left hanging.
<manu_sporny> Like, the server would have to start a series of OID4VP exchanges... taking one in at a time... and do the linking on the server.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Let's see so some mono in chat is saying.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Yeah so nice pointed out that.
Dmitri Zagidulin: You're going to go ahead and yeah you can explain better.
<kerri_lemoie> Meant OID4 - not OIDC4 - sorry :)
Manu Sporny: Yeah I I'm I'm thinking out loud with Nils on how ID for VP could possibly work for this plugfest if they can only do or if it can only do single-shot credentials now there's a possibility of us adding something to the VC playground that keeps State on the server that will receive multiple oid for.
Manu Sporny: PP presentations one.
Manu Sporny: Time and then do The Binding of all those credentials together on the server but I mean like this is there's there's probably a better way to do this so I'm so sorry I didn't want it to come across this like that's the only way it could work clearly the community probably has a you know better mechanism than that.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Thank you and.
<manu_sporny> Yes, I agree with Niels.
<niels_klomp_-_sphereon> To be clear you can have multiple VPs in one exchange
<niels_klomp_-_sphereon> And then have 1 or more VCs per VP
<niels_klomp_-_sphereon> But there is not really a defined way to have multiple VPs in serial order
Dmitri Zagidulin: Go ahead wonderful thank you David and we appreciate your leadership in the previous log vests as well as this one real quick before before we adjourn one of the questions from I think it was the mailing list asking specifically what is the verifier going to verify on the other end.
Dmitri Zagidulin: As we know in the community there's difference between verification and validation verification being essentially just checking the signature and then validation can have any number of steps that are business rules specific so expiration whether or not the issuer is in a known issue or list all sorts of other steps so.
Dmitri Zagidulin: For plug.
Dmitri Zagidulin: We're just expecting the signature to validate and we do expect did authentication / holder binding meaning their five presentation that gets handed off by the wallet needs to be signed with the users did.
Dmitri Zagidulin: So hopefully that answers that question.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Anyone else last moment.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Oh great question that's that's over to Sharon can issuers.
<niels_klomp_-_sphereon> It would be good to have some verifiers, like I also mentioned last call
Dmitri Zagidulin: Participate or I don't know get a badge for the previous blood test versions.
<niels_klomp_-_sphereon> Otherwise you are only testing interop between wallets and 1 verifier
Sharon Leu: I mean okay so I okay so this is a great question because one of the ongoing conversations that we have is how to continue to grow this community and obviously we want the community of issuers to be able to issue credentials into multiple logs as well so we don't have the solution for you right now but I think that we will have an answer to your question in the next two to four months as far as like what we do for right now I think out all of the documentation and the credentials and the technical information for what issuers did to earn their.
Sharon Leu: Plug those two badge were available are available on the plumpest to website so you should feel free to play around.
Sharon Leu: Send me a message if you would like to talk more about this and you can be part of like the solution that we.
Sharon Leu: So if you if you have a verifier solution I would love to talk to you so definitely send me a note and like will try to work that out.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Thank you azim thank you Sharon.
Dmitri Zagidulin: All right we are at the top of the hour thank you everyone I've there's any questions left unanswered has asked on the VC edu mailing list and on the slack Channel thanks again see you all next week.