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VC for Education Task Force

Transcript for 2023-10-16

<kerri_lemoie> Hello all - we'll get started in a couple of minutes.
<tallted> hmmm... Jitsi says the host hasn't arrived yet, but Kerri has the host crown... audio comes in from Kerri & Dmitri, but I can't unmute... gonna drop and rejoin. noting here for later jitsi analysis
Our Robot Overlords are scribing.
Kerri Lemoie: Hello everyone welcome to the Monday October 16th verify the credentials for Education task force today our topic is a review of plugfest 3 and then also I W if there's anybody here who would like to share their experiences I'm a Dy w.
Kerri Lemoie: Go through the the beginning boilerplate and then we'll jump into our topic our main topic.
Kerri Lemoie: Where is IP note.

Topic: IP Note

<kate_giovacchini> Good morning!
Kerri Lemoie: Anyone can participate in these calls however any substitute of contributions to the ccg work items must be made by members of the ccg with full IP our agreement signed we send out those links in the agenda email that goes to the vcg mailing list I believe these links are also in this ECG mailing list pretty frequently so if you'd like to contribute to the specs please review those member agreements.

Topic: Call Notes

Kerri Lemoie: Please calls are recorded and as you can see there is a robot transcriber in the chat we also use a cue system for participating in the call so if you would like to join in the conversation or ask a question just spit in that way to take Q Plus and you will be added to the queue and q- will review remove you from the queue just.
Kerri Lemoie: Like I did in the chat just now.

Topic: Introductions & Reintroductions

Kerri Lemoie: You can also use the hand icon and the lower bottom dashboard of did see or if you are unable to do any of those things just let us know and we'll add you to the kids okay next topic is introductions and reintroductions is there anybody here today who would like to introduce themselves or reintroduce themselves on this so just add yourself to the queue.
Kerri Lemoie: Patrick from ideal AB you have the floor.
Kerri Lemoie: Hey Patrick we can't hear you or I can't hear you it could be me.
Dmitri Zagidulin: No I can't either.
Kerri Lemoie: Can others here Patrick or am I having volume trouble I'm okay.
<patrick_(idlab)> i will rejoin!
Kerri Lemoie: Patrick thank you please do and put yourself up when you come back it's probably not here right now anybody else that would like to introduce themselves tell us about your work.
Kerri Lemoie: What come back 20 Patrick is back let's see if we can hear Patrick.
Kerri Lemoie: We got you Patrick go ahead.
Patrick_(IDLab): Okay perfect awesome sometimes you'd see give me a issue with certain browsers it's happened before.
Patrick_(IDLab): Yeah just wanted to introduce myself it's my first time on the Visa did you call I've been attending the VC API calls for some time and that is about as much active participation I do want the wtcg I do however try to follow different nsh serve to the public mailing list so I enjoy having a look at what is happening and I had the pleasure to meet some people here at the plug.
Patrick_(IDLab): Fest and I had W and it was a.
Patrick_(IDLab): Experience just wanted to introduce myself and say hi to everyone I work for I D lab where a Canadian nonprofit that specialize in digital identity that's it.
Kerri Lemoie: Oh that's great Patrick thank you for introducing yourself.
Kerri Lemoie: I don't see anybody else on the list for introductions so why don't we go to announcements and reminders does anybody have any announcements that they would like to make.

Topic: Announcements & Reminders

Kerri Lemoie: Or any reminders of things coming up that you'd like us to know about.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Yeah I think we're getting into the part of the Year where there's blessedly few conferences and reminders of them.
Kerri Lemoie: Blessedly fuse and good way to put that I'm happy to be home.
<kate_giovacchini> Congratulations on your new role!
Kerri Lemoie: I actually have an announcement to make so I'll go ahead and then you can take it from there so today is my day last day hosting a VC edgy call as a co-chair I'm going to be stepping down as a co-chair because I have I've taken on a new role as director of the digital credential Consortium and I'm it's a big time commitment it is hard to be hard for me to balance both so I need to make some room for this new.
Kerri Lemoie: Ooh roll.
<phil_t3> You will be deeply missed as one of the leaders of VC-EDU
Kerri Lemoie: You also know I'm very proud of the work we've done together and I have no plans on like running away from this group or anything I just need to step back from planning agendas and doing that sort of thing but I still plan to be involved and and also DCC will be heavily involved because we have Dimitri who is who works with us at DC he's our lead architect and he still will be co-chair so these Hedges gonna be looking for another co-chair and there's going to be an election and.
Kerri Lemoie: And if you're interested you could reach out to Dmitri or Simoni or me and.
Kerri Lemoie: And all of that Dimitri do you have anything you'd like to say about that right now.
Dmitri Zagidulin: No so I guess so we can mention the mechanism so we'll just like previously I think this was in 23 years ago I forget will be doing a rank Choice voting for have more than one candidate volunteer and will will host a call where candidates can introduce themselves.
Dmitri Zagidulin: So yeah let's let's start with that so Kerry thank you so much for Heroic and Titanic work that you've done for this group over all the years and like I'm really.
<susan_stroud> Congrats, Kerri! We've appreciated your contributions to this group and look forward to where this is going!
Dmitri Zagidulin: The been more like honored and happy working with you and learned a ton and of course we'll the group the task force is in good hands so little.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Looking forward to your involvement as as an attendee.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Of course absolutely.
Kerri Lemoie: Thanks Dmitri I really appreciate that. I definitely feel like it is in good hands and there's definitely some things I would like to do is part of this group so maybe I'll have a little bit more availability to do that, attend the meetings maybe once in a while Dmitri & Simone will let me host a call.
Kerri Lemoie: Just for fun.
Kerri Lemoie: Thank you all really appreciate that.

Topic: Plugfest 3

Kerri Lemoie: Now let's move on to our main topic Sharon Lee I'm going to hand the floor over to you to give us a recap of plugfest hurry and I know there's some folks here who participated who might want to join in this conversation too but I'll let you kick us off.
Sharon Leu: Morning so first of all to I guess Echo what Dimitri said really going to miss you as one of the co-chairs of this group and thank you for all the support that you and smoothie and Dimitri have given to this jmf team for doing these plugfest I feel like I've had a ton of fun working together on this and look forward to doing other and different things with you and the new co-chair whoever that person may be so with.
Sharon Leu: That said I just want to put a link into the.
<kerri_lemoie> Thanks :heart: It's been my honor.
<sharon_leu> Recording of the day is available for viewing here:
Sharon Leu: Is the the VC edu page where we have all of the information about the contest and at this point we have 22 of the 24 videos posted we also have a link that I'm going to drop into the chat with I guess the recording of the day as well as the presentation deck that people can replay if they run out of things on Netflix.
Sharon Leu: Is that.
Sharon Leu: Be interested in watching I actually want to watch it again myself for a couple of reasons first I think that whenever you're the host of an event you're always worried about like if the sandwiches are going to be delivered on time but like and you don't get as much sort of real-time opportunity to really reflect but also because I want to admire what I think is one of our greatest accomplishments which is we paid money to have people do.
Sharon Leu: Do the.
Sharon Leu: A visual production of the event so we are hoping that it was the best of the three as far as the hybrid in-person virtual participation and if you have any additional feedback on whether you dialed in or whether you were in the room and you felt like you were able to be heard and participate that would be really helpful for us just from like an event Logistics perspective so that we can know how to improve moving forward so.
Sharon Leu: Oh that's I think just details and.
Sharon Leu: And I think I will just start by saying that I really appreciate this community and everyone that did the hard work of participating in the in these plug vests when we first started doing them they were just like a yeah we should do this because Anil John does them and they seemed like a good way to help us accomplish our goals and so I like I think our team wasn't quite sure what kind of response we would get from the community but I think that we have been.
Sharon Leu: Really excited to see so many people.
Sharon Leu: Working on these activities are goals always we're not technical I am not a technical person deeply myself and neither is my team I think what we are is committed to this idea that individuals can control their credentials and to use them in mix-and-match them so that they can best represent themselves as they pursue Workforce or education opportunities and I think that we threw this work at the.
Sharon Leu: Bug vest and with you in partnership with the VC Edge.
Sharon Leu: And this group have been a pretty far down the road there as far as credentials being moved in and out of different faiths who have demonstrated that individuals can point their data so logistically we had about 2014 submit their final videos two of them aren't posted yet that is not not because of them it's because of us but we will get to that when we have additional final information and we also know that some people have expressed interest in.
Sharon Leu: Eating a different video.
Sharon Leu: Fine and so we'll wait and do one final batch upload again when we have all of this in the next week or so really really pleased with the two different sort of groups that demonstrated interoperability both with the VC API chappie protocol as well as with the oid sort of family of protocols and also really just interesting things that we noticed I'll just say a couple of them so number one I think that using this.
Sharon Leu: A sort of.
Sharon Leu: To model really worked very well because I think it freed up people's resources to focus on refining the things that they needed to do to so that the workflow worked for the presentation exchange so I'll say the technical requirements for this were that you have to grab three credentials either from you know one of the sort of protocols appropriate like sandboxes like the chappie the VC playground or I think we also use the matter Launchpad for this extensively.
Sharon Leu: I grabbed three different credentials into your wallet and then.
Sharon Leu: Eva request for presentation package them up into a VP and send them back to the requester for the most part I think that it was interesting to see how the different user experiences were for us on the different wallet interfaces I see coyote on the call I think they really appreciated how on some of the wallets there was some a lot of thought given to allow select the credentials that they wanted to present and then create the package and then also how.
Sharon Leu: Some people went a little bit above and beyond and also.
Sharon Leu: We saw this a ton with the sort of teams that use the open ID protocol and and also really noticed that people who used BC API and chappie tended to enjoy putting music to their videos more so than the others so I think those were my general observations and I guess I'll leave it to others if so right now next up the Wi-Fi in the plane wasn't super great and our team is getting.
Sharon Leu: Ying just caught up right now we.
Sharon Leu: I'm sending individual emails to every one of the participants in the next couple of days to either say like yeah go ahead and invoice us like it looks great or to ask if you would like to resubmit a video or to provide some clarification once that's all done in the next couple of months we will be sort of sourcing ideas for how this community hopes to proceed for example if there are technical things that we should work on together.
Sharon Leu: Straight like additional interrupt whether it's creating users sort of stories or workflows that are a little bit be aligned to the real world or if there are some you know just other questions that anyone has so I'm going to stop I noticed Dimitri in the queue so perfect person to take it over from here.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Thanks Sharon and in addition to just give a couple thoughts on the plugfest day you know I was going to ask so can we start that conversation now just even in the brainstorming and idea Gathering even though you said after the team gets done with everything else.
Sharon Leu: Oh yeah absolutely open for ideas.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Excellent okay right on okay so yeah I was once again extremely impressed with all of the teams I know a lot of whom I had to do some heavy lifting to enable these external enabled handling external requests for credentials from their fires and relying parties so good job everyone I want to give a special shout-out to Brian Richter of aviary.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Tech who I think was the only.
Kerri Lemoie: :Clap:
Dmitri Zagidulin: To handle all three families of protocols DC API open ID and and did come to so it is possible so good job Brian let's see what else.
Dmitri Zagidulin: I yeah I think we'll start with that I'd love to hear from some of the other attendees thoughts what were the easier the difficult Parts implementing.
<sharon_leu> And Brian was a/ the first to send a video; and b/ had interesting music
Dmitri Zagidulin: And what are some ideas you have for next.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Next interop plug Festival which is inevitably coming just just to see the conversation so far our sort of conversations among the jmf team have been one focusing on the end to end or the minimal viable ecosystem which is a lovely term that just that we picked up from I.
<kate_giovacchini> Would be very interested to see execution of a use case centered around a learner/earner.
Dmitri Zagidulin: So that's that's thought number one and then number two is continuing pushing the not really the envelope but but pushing the implementation percentage of some of these crucial specifications that we have in the wallet World such as for example.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Export and import or otherwise wallet transport so one of the one of the cornerstones what are the pillars of the verifiable credential world.
Dmitri Zagidulin: And everything that care or that Sharon has mentioned before is this notion of user Choice the learner choice so if they it's crucial that we enable the situation that if they have credentials in one wallet and if for some reason I don't like it or even just if the the implementer of the wallet has when I do.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Business or disappeared or otherwise.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Continued that they're able to release that credentials from that wall and transferred to another one that they're using.
<sharon_leu> @kate - Can you elaborate on what needs to be in place for this to happen? which stakeholders need to join? etc.
Dmitri Zagidulin: All right so we'll start with that let's see who else is on the Queue Patrick go ahead.
Patrick_(IDLab): A question regarding this there are some credential types an example and on creds which the credential is binded to the wallet so within that make this unfeasible in certain situation.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Fantastic question so hat at this previous iwi one of the one of the sessions I thought was really exciting was Sam Clarence session on let's see what is it called at Universal wallet container export format which is SPAC I think being incubated in a diff right now and possibly over trust over IP know it is it isn't trust over IP.
Dmitri Zagidulin: A body in our community that defines a very very rough container essentially zipped in Cryptid set of files and directories that a wallet export would live in and even though in the session discussing the sort of the roadmap for it this exact question has been brought up some.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Some credentials are bound to a particular trusted Hardware module which cannot export keys and some credentials like you like you said like the Anon creds and various other selective disclosure methods are just not able to be exported at all so when we say while it transfer or while it exports is we always have that asterisk in mind of whenever possible right so some keys.
Dmitri Zagidulin: These are just not physically able to be exported.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Credentials not physically able to be exported however one of the one of the items that was brought up during the discussion which which I think we have to debate as a community is would it be helpful or not to export not the an exportable credentials but essentially a receipt or an IOU this notion that hey I once had a credential to remind the user to go get and have it reissued.
Dmitri Zagidulin: That's a yeah so whatever possible plus reminders.
Patrick_(IDLab): That's an interesting idea.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Yeah definitely something to think about all of us Susan go.
Susan_Stroud: Couldn't dream this is Susan's drought from with clipped and we did get a chance to participate in the park fastest passed around and we are really excited to do that in very thankful for the experience and the partnership they received especially in the conversations and slack and just how much support our team had and being able to really work through blockers very quickly whenever maybe we didn't understand something or we needed to work through a particular piece so I think that really made our experience.
Susan_Stroud: I don't know I am a techie so I'll call it enjoyable.
Susan_Stroud: In terms of you know how teams work together to resolve connectivity and interoperability issues so thank you for that we also heard in that conversation about how many ux experience issues that we have overall I mean a lot of really tough problems came up and the answer is you know that's a ux issue that's a ux issue and while I don't disagree with some of the categorizations and you know what needs what the wallets need to be able to do to move forward there's a lot of change management for Mikey.
Susan_Stroud: Manatee perspective kind of goes with some of those that you X-Bow.
Susan_Stroud: About what kind of use cases are really helpful going forward to me it's really about having some purpose built some very intentional use cases that include the verifier actually accepting the VP that's requested there's a lot of interesting things that can be done with Selective disclosure in that in terms of being able to you know build out you know what actually the what the the holder right what is the holder want to present outright they're not always secondary in this process they.
Susan_Stroud: they may be wanting to push.
Susan_Stroud: Information and so as you think about that as a way to kind of meet halfway between a barrel fire and you know what their current experiences are and how we can kind of Drive adoption forward I think having specific verifiers ready to accept you know very specific VPS for very specific purposes at all still comply with all of the interoperability and security and really just privacy standards that exist to me that's where when you start talking about those into ends that you can really start to get somewhere because it's not a one-size-fits-all.
Susan_Stroud: all which does bring in render method to be honest in terms of a you know you won't have a good bite about what is it one size fits all or.
Susan_Stroud: Something else and.
Kerri Lemoie: +1 RenderMethod
Susan_Stroud: That's another really important component I think to being able to create accessible applications for holders so that were able to represent information at least you know and minimal and consistent way you do let's say for example with an ALT name on an image for example on a website today with the really has to be some strong consideration around render method and what it's really there to do and what it isn't there to do as much as probably anything else because that's where I see a lot of folks getting caught up and.
Susan_Stroud: taking it you know maybe a little bit too far so those were some of the key.
Phil Long: +1 For considering render method and +1 to look at selective disclosure methods
Susan_Stroud: I wanted to kind of bring up the other area is actually around creating more support for Native mobile applications and really being able to beef up some of our notification and just the overall experience around verifiable and verifiable presentation request you know we obviously we do but we did and we did a great job working together to make that work but in terms of scaling that overall solution I think there's a little bit more conversation to happen there so that could be another place we really talk about some of those in.
Susan_Stroud: and experiences how do we think about what that looks like for a mobile.
Susan_Stroud: You know app that is native to the product and we're not looking to create a different experience for that so that's all I wanted to say I just wanted to share those thoughts about ways that we participated thank you so much and also some things that are important to us going forward.
<kerri_lemoie> Thanks Susan!
Dmitri Zagidulin: Thanks Susan I that that's really helpful insight and also speaking of support of course I got to give a shout out to again the amazing effort that our.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Aha the the implementers who created the credential playground the menu matter playground and then some of the other verifiers and play go and implementers that have supported thank you all I see we have some of them on our call here we have least half Morgan from digital bizarre who put together the credential playground and if anybody else from any of those teams are here.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Thank you very much for supporting all of these.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Alright let's see here you're up next.
<morgan_lemmer_webber> It was wonderful helping you all integrate with the VC Playground!
Kerri Lemoie: And put myself in the queue to where's about thanks Susan for those great remarks and to talk a little bit about render method because we found out in our discussion after we watch the videos last Monday that render method is something that's sort of been considered to be on the chopping block at the ccg the many of us feel like this is the the best way to approach you know for for issuers to suggest display of credentials.
Kerri Lemoie: And we should do a call on that sub.
Kerri Lemoie: Dimitri I say we but you guys should do a call on that at some point because it's you for part of the plugfest the first one was just this plane open badge credential and then in the third one we had different types of credentials but we didn't really care about how they were displayed because we're focusing on the presentation but if we were to say hey let's display all these types of credentials think Walt would have a really hard time trying to decide how would they do that unless.
Kerri Lemoie: We specifically said these are the credentials we these are the fields we.
Kerri Lemoie: Display there are hundreds of properties like json-ld properties and others that can be used in credentials and yeah well we really need to think through how we're going to be displaying them I'm not in the only in the wallet maybe you know from the wall and outside the wallet so if you hear a render method and people wanting to cut render method and you see that in the mailing list please voice your support or help us think of some other way to go about that.
Kerri Lemoie: That's all I was thinking of saying.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Thanks Gary yeah that and I think we'll definitely have another call not too distant future discussing where under method is at currently so just reminded for everybody it's a work item picked up by the ccg so active work is being done on the specification and we also gathered a lot of really good feedback for some of the limitations or features.
Dmitri Zagidulin: H or.
Dmitri Zagidulin: His ability details of render method during these past few weeks talking to some of you at plugfest others about W and so on so yeah we're definitely very excited about these the work on render method specifically anybody else want to share their thoughts.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Either on the implementation detail or on what the next upcoming plugfest that should involve.
Kerri Lemoie: Yeah I would love to hear thoughts and you know what what could plugfest for be what would be the next step the next logical step for this.
Patrick_(IDLab): Yeah I could just end up surveys tonight I had during the event and even after the event there seem to be a strong representation of Json web token as a format for credentials in the various platform especially during the verification of the credential and I was actually wondering during this plugfest what's.
Patrick_(IDLab): next you know because it seems like.
Patrick_(IDLab): Ed that it was a very logical sequence up to now the verification which you know we could say is like the the end of the the ultimate purpose of a very full credential is to get it verified to access whatever service or something one thing that was identified for the future iteration is how to represent these credentials which I think is very interesting I think also there could be more on a phone.
<kaliya_identitywoman> more formats = more work
Patrick_(IDLab): Different specs sort of coexisting here it was a lot like for an example for here the exchange was primarily YDC you know it's getting a lot of traction I think there could be an interesting angle to have multiple whether it's two different exchange exchange mechanism in one floor sort of a well-used it come from.
Patrick_(IDLab): the issuance.
Patrick_(IDLab): You see for the presentation using the same credentials and the same wallet I think that could be interesting and also maybe in the same Spirit do multiple credential different credentialed types or formats yeah those would be my thought so maybe Focus now that it has been the flow made more streamlined way but see how we can sort of mix different.
Patrick_(IDLab): specification and.
Patrick_(IDLab): Than coexist would be my head.
Dmitri Zagidulin: That's really interesting that's a very cool suggestion so it's definitely challenging for the plugfest team because we.
Dmitri Zagidulin: We really did a technology neutral organ hasta krait so I our goal is to prevent present use cases and then see what formats are protocols implementers the put forward to solve those use cases right many of the wallets in this particular plugfest did support multiple protocols and then as I mentioned Brian's one keep supported all three which.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Definitely belongs in the bonus points category at not not something we can we can require only because there are multiple vendors in our ecosystem committed to only supporting 11 format one protocol and would give a lot of pushback will give a lot of resistance to being forced to support more than one.
Dmitri Zagidulin: It's always tricky in that regard.
Patrick_(IDLab): Yeah you see that's a this is probably decide that I would be less familiar with and people who have been here maybe longer than me would be identified so I can now see the how that would be definitely a problem.
Patrick_(IDLab): Because I think so maybe this wouldn't be the right place for this because I think this this sort of exercise would help to identify maybe where one's specification lacks you know like they're not all equal it could also maybe help for example the feedback I heard about the YDC is that they were multiple different versions and some platform we're using one version and others the other one that which made it sort of.
Patrick_(IDLab): cult even if it was one.
Patrick_(IDLab): An ism that well which version of the section exchange mechanism they're using.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Yeah that's definitely a challenge currently in the open I do community which will hoping they will store sort out sharing your next.
Sharon Leu: I just have quick comments about the credential formats and then sort of another question which the quick comments are I think that one.
Dmitri Zagidulin: I think you hit mute by by accident Sharon.
Sharon Leu: Just anything oh sorry okay okay I'm back so I think that it was interesting that once BC playground had like added the functionality to be able to have credentials in a different format other than the Capi chappie like it allows the oid see credentials we saw a number of wallet to were only going to use who I think we're initially just going to use the VC API chappie protocol but.
Sharon Leu: We're able to take an oid C credential also off the.
Sharon Leu: I think the existence of that tool made it so that you could go to one place and grab the credential in whatever format was available so I'm glad to see Morgan adding herself to the queue so I thought that was interesting I guess I want to like respond to a couple of things that Patrick and then Susan and others have mentioned about the rid of all of this like next step by reframing it in the in the context of questions that came up while you guys were talking which is number one.
Sharon Leu: Like what do you.
Sharon Leu: To the mark either the market conditions or the technical conditions that need to be in place in order for this kind of sort of VC workflow to be like rather you get the ubiquitous right so not just gather some more market like traction but actually be the done the way that things are done and in that context like what specific kinds of like I don't know pieces need to be.
Sharon Leu: In place to drive if.
Sharon Leu: Like create it like what are the next things that the community needs to do in order to get a state where this is just what everyone does and I'm curious whether it's like challenging application developer you know developers to understand you know render or is it or or fix some of the ux things or is it to work more specifically with verifiers so that there's more of a sort of demand side pull anyway I don't want to like pivot this too much away from the.
Sharon Leu: Technical discussion but that's sort of how I also am thinking in my head.
Sharon Leu: The right next technical step.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Thanks Sharon Phil you're up next.
<phil_t3> No audio
Dmitri Zagidulin: And if you're speaking can't hear you.
<phil_t3> Will come back
Dmitri Zagidulin: Okay so so we'll come back so I think Morgan you're up next.
Chris Webber: I just wanted to comment on the VC playground and adding support for other protocols and one of the things that we wish we could have gotten done in time for this plugfest but just didn't have time to do was so one we have plans to do well ID for VP support and then also qr-code support so we realize as care as sorry Sharon said a bunch.
Chris Webber: Bunch of people who were planning to do.
Chris Webber: Just be Capi entropy were able to add oid for because we added that to the playground but we also realized that it wasn't easy for projects that were planning to do oid for to use the VC playground because we didn't have all the infrastructure for that in place yet so one of digital bazaars plans in the future is to implement those things so that it's not just being able to do that in addition to VC API and crappy but being able to use the.
Chris Webber: DC playground for boys.
<sharon_leu> Another interesting observation is the EU/US edu divide in protocol choice.
Chris Webber: 40 ID specific projects as well.
Chris Webber: Also just a disclaimer I am not one of the developers who created that so if there are.
Dmitri Zagidulin: You representing though you're representing the.
Chris Webber: Something but just just if you have very technical questions about those plans I am not the correct person to answer them.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Thanks Mark and I are really grateful for your individual desires work and sounds like there's more improvements coming down the line I think about next on the Queue and I just wanted to give a couple thoughts to Sharon's question about.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Your question correctly it was what can we do to reduce the plethora of choices of formats and protocols down to one hopefully to make interop and implementer jobs much easier and that's always a great question that that's certainly something I would like to see on the other hand we may never get there's a community and that's okay meaning we may always be.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Be a man.
<susan_stroud> Verifiers need the ability to review a VP that has been provided to them and use that data to advance their workflows. We won't know about new tech challenges to bringing this to market adoption unless we have VPs being accepted by the Verifiers and get their feedback.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Matt Community even if even for example if on the verifiable credential side we sorted out and pick one there's always going to be other formats from outside communities such as mobile driver's license right so the EM Doc mobile document format is likely to be to continue being very different from the verifiable credentials and they're very various flavors so.
Dmitri Zagidulin: So It's Tricky.
Dmitri Zagidulin: I could see it either way Patrick you.
Patrick_(IDLab): Hey if you think this a baseball that so I'll start with the latest point you just mentioned I think having multiple formats available is a good thing but like you said not force everyone just you know choose one and do it because that can give a good representation of which Protocols are format or mostly used in the community you know I believe that forcing this sort of let's all converge to one specification.
Patrick_(IDLab): I don't know it doesn't.
Patrick_(IDLab): For me I believe like let specification come in and they will naturally sort of live or die based on adoption and Community using them so that would be one thing I have to say a good example for this is mentioned earlier like the and on creds sort of credential format or type so a non-credit has a specific way of storing different objects and verifying prove doing selectors closure.
Patrick_(IDLab): and zero.
Patrick_(IDLab): It works you know it's there's plenty of wall that using it it's pretty intrapreneurial and you know at the moment the PC is looking too well how can we take the functionalities of an uncredited but use the variable control data model to sort of carry those implementations so they will they would adopt the verifiable credential as the sort of official credential format for an on grades and it would instead of being what it is which is a.
Patrick_(IDLab): bunch of resources while it would become a new.
Patrick_(IDLab): Type so that's a good example of so the community naturally deciding where it's going to go you know and this this particular example it was it makes it only makes sense to use the referable credential data model as a sort of body and I think same would go with credential exchange you know if it's a new specification that is with to obscure you know.
Patrick_(IDLab): it won't get much.
Patrick_(IDLab): Still showcasing it's out there we'll only at this that so that was just my point we're going this I had another idea for maybe a next iteration of plugfest it could be focus on wallet functions and features I know they were discussion around sort of wallet notification maybe a short of credential refresh so you get a credential that will expire and you need to renew it so.
Patrick_(IDLab): this I think.
Patrick_(IDLab): It could be very interesting because I believe this was one of the limitation of the oid see exchange was to do like further notification afterwards like once you get your credentials issued okay well how can I be notified that my credential was revoked and how can I sort of request a new credential so I think I think this is this would be a good idea finally regarding the.
Patrick_(IDLab): the sort of.
Patrick_(IDLab): The VC playground and these platform I think it's nice to have multiple platform I don't hear a lot people show the interoperability with the matter platform and I think it's always very interesting to sort of issue a credential for one platform and presented in the different platform I think that has a great element of interoperability menu so that those are three points I just thought.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Next thanks I like some ideas also reminds me that one of the one of the other features we could explore the next plugfest is of course revocation everyone's favorite subject I see we have Phil who's backfill go ahead.
Dmitri Zagidulin: I can't hear you Phil you may need to restart browser or switch to a different one.
<phil_t3> No -not getting audio - will do.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Okay alright so I feel so having audio trouble Adam go ahead.
Adam_(Tangle_Labs): Thank you um yeah I am looking at these videos and it's amazing how far everybody's come in the progress that's made and just looking forward we were unfortunately we weren't able to participate in this event but progression I think.
Adam_(Tangle_Labs): So if user experience stuff going on and I think that's kind of just taking a step too far too soon maybe looking at multiple credential flows as you just mentioned as well Dimitri revocation is super important and maybe exploring selective disclosure in the different protocols I think those are kind of like the next progressions this this whole back up.
<kaliya_identitywoman> see that paper for understanding the current data format landscape.
Adam_(Tangle_Labs): About it's talked about in pretty much every standards Community I'm a part of it's like this this mysterious thing that nobody can achieve at the moment so I think that's something definitely to discuss but for the next stages I think multiple credential flows is really important like presenting multiple credentials like as a digital CV or.
Adam_(Tangle_Labs): thing like that.
<kerri_lemoie> Thanks for sharing @kaliya
Adam_(Tangle_Labs): Elective disclosure to choose which parts of which credentials you share that's that's kind of kind of be the future of this technology and it's something I think might be very important to look at these sorts of this sort of stage anyway.
Phil_L_(P1): How about now Dimitri.
<kerri_lemoie> :)
Dmitri Zagidulin: Thanks yeah and then for what it's worth this this particular plug first required multiple credentials to be presented as a package but you're right there's of course always more room to explore mixing and matching let's see doing who else yes we can yeah welcome back to.
Phil_L_(P1): Third time's a try third time's a charm first of all I wanted to put you put a plus one around render method as a an approach this take took a while for the browser's to come up with CSS which became clearly the approach to rendering on browser environments and I think that render method is sort of the same kind of thing and while it may be early on it seems like the most profitable approach because it doesn't rule out individual wallets from doing their own thing it just gives them an option.
Phil_L_(P1): to do something in a public and open transparent way to choose.
Phil_L_(P1): Templates for rendering on their own platform and and then customizing it thereafter secondly I'm interested in whether it's still too early but I hope not to include or consider selective disclosure methods for the next time around since it's such an important attribute of user agency or holder agency to be able to choose what they express and what they don't it's ironic that the mdl has got that sort of built-in in their exchange process.
Phil_L_(P1): but we don't yet.
<kaliya_identitywoman> The credentials have to be SIGNED differently to get selective disclosure.
Phil_L_(P1): That on the credential wallet side for VCS and the last thing I wanted to note was in response to Sharon's comment I think that the one thing that we have and it may be sort of buried in the concept that that Sharon was describing with respect to focusing more on the verifiers but the one thing we have been sort of missing is a focus on the actual employers recept receiving these credentials in a way that they can.
Phil_L_(P1): Primary entry points for job applications of credential applicant people sending credentials as applicants to positions and on the one hand I've heard it said that that's a relatively trivial thing to do but they still have to receive the credential in some fashion and at this point asking them to Simply do it by an individual with an a wallet at an employer it's probably not the most effective approach so I'd be very interested in that particular.
Phil_L_(P1): Allure elephant in the room which is Howard their stacks of.
Phil_L_(P1): He actually getting into the hands of employers in a way they can use it you on the platforms that they currently use for aggregating applications thanks.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Thanks Phil see anyone else.
Dmitri Zagidulin: All right well and we are getting towards the top of the hour and we would like to leave people few minutes between calls.
Dmitri Zagidulin: So any last thoughts of words.
Kerri Lemoie: No thank you for the discussion everyone really appreciate this and we'll stay in touch and keep working together on this.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Thanks again Carrie will see you as.
<sharon_leu> Thanks, all!
Dmitri Zagidulin: As an attendee cheers all bye.
<phil_l_(p1)> Another round of applause to Kerri!