The W3C Credentials Community Group

Meeting Transcriptions and Audio Recordings (2014-today)

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W3C CCG Weekly Teleconference

Transcript for 2024-04-30

Agenda
https://www.w3.org/Search/Mail/Public/advanced_search?hdr-1-name=subject&hdr-1-query=%5BAGENDA&period_month=Apr&period_year=2024&index-grp=Public__FULL&index-type=t&type-index=public-credentials&resultsperpage=20&sortby=date
Organizer
Mike Prorock, Kimberly Linson, Harrison Tang
Scribe
Our Robot Overlords
Present
Harrison Tang, Bob Wyman, Will Abramson, Jennie M, Erica Connell, Gregory Natran, TallTed // Ted Thibodeau (he/him) (OpenLinkSw.com), Tim Bloomfield, Laura Paglione, Jeff O - HumanOS, Nis Jespersen , Joe Andrieu, Dmitri Zagidulin, Geun-Hyung Kim, Kaliya Young, pauld gs1, David I. Lehn, Mike Xu, PL/T3, Alex H, Gerald Glickman, Rashmi Siravara
Audio Log
Our Robot Overlords are scribing.
Harrison_Tang: So hello everyone welcome to this week's uh w3c reading so today uh we're going to hold a discussion in regards to the ccg road map and uh know what why are people like joining ccgs and the why should you join ccg as well as uh talk about how do you kind of submit work items and what kind of work items we want to work on so uh well later I will actually uh uh do a quick presentation in regards to uh these topics and then uh moderated discussions uh around uh the ccg road map uh but before that I just want to quickly go through the agendas uh so first of all just want to make sure that we respect code of conducts and professional conduct uh just want to make sure that uh you know we hold a respectful and constructive uh conversations.
Harrison_Tang: Um a quick note on the intellectual property uh anyone can participate in these calls however all successive contributions to any CCU work items must be members of the ccg with full IPR agreement signed uh so make sure you have a w3c account and if you have any questions regards to getting a w3c account or uh the the IP notes uh just let any of the cultures know.
Harrison_Tang: Uh these uh meetings are being automatically recorded and transcribed uh we try to uh publish them uh within the next uh day or 2 um so you can use uh GT chat uh to uh raise questions uh so you can type in Q Plus to add yourself to the queue uh and Q minus to remove uh you can type in Q question mark uh to see who's in the queue.
Harrison_Tang: Hi just want to take a quick moment moment in regards to introductions where reintroduction so if you're new to the community or you haven't been active and want to uh re-engage uh feel free to just uh unmute uh and introduce yourself.
Harrison_Tang: All right later uh.
Harrison_Tang: But will is the moderating the discussions on ccg maybe he'll call on some people so just uh get prepared.
Harrison_Tang: All right um next uh announcements and reminders uh any new announcements or reminders in regards to events or uh new Publications.
Harrison_Tang: All right a quick uh preview uh in regards to the upcoming meetings so today we're talking about ccg road map uh holding the uh discussions around that uh next Tuesday May 7th uh we will have monu to talk about parallel signatures in verifiable credentials.
Harrison_Tang: And then the week after that we'll have the CEO of Life uh to talk about global legal entity identifier and uh their Foundation as well as their uh latest initiatives.
Harrison_Tang: and then the.
Harrison_Tang: That on May 21st uh we will have the culture of oawf credential format comparison group to talk about credential format comparisons.
Harrison_Tang: And then the week after that we'll have a Neil John to talk about the DHS de Department of Homeland Security's uh technical implementation requirements for decentralized identity.
Harrison_Tang: So that's the upcoming meetings.
Harrison_Tang: All right last calls for announcements and reminders or introductions and reintroductions.
Harrison_Tang: All right and then the.
Harrison_Tang: Updates on the existing work items or maybe uh will you can talk about that uh later in the discussion.
Harrison_Tang: I can ask your screen oh good.
Harrison_Tang: I can see it now yep.
Harrison_Tang: I'm I'm moderator Joe.
Joe Andrieu: Okay thanks um yeah I just wanted to mention the VC task force so the verifiable credentials work.
Joe Andrieu: Actually came out of the ccg and it had stabilized as a task force.
<tallted_//_ted_thibodeau_(he/him)_(openlinksw.com)> A Task Force is a subset of the CCG, typically being those who self-select to work on one or more Work Items. It can be thought of like a subcommittee.
Joe Andrieu: The main reason is because you want to meet every week like to have a regular rhythm um and I don't know how long the VC task force works but that was how I first got involved um and the the entire point was really to incubate to the point of having a charter that could be adopted and so the community notes that were developed alongside that like the VC use cases were intended to eventually go to the working group so that was how we have leveraged that in the past to good effect um assuming you like verifiable credentials.
Harrison_Tang: Thanks Joe Kenn you're next.
Geun-Hyung Kim: Um so I started the vceda you know we we could have started work items in you know gone met sort of met within the ccg meetings run it as a you know sort of like you asked for a status on work items at the beginning kind of thing um but we had enough of our own sort of momentum conversations we had to have and um a set of work items and it is also that we didn't know we were still sort of Designing what that would look like so I'll put in the charter I think the main thing um it it to do this it's good to make sure upfront you have a reasonable set of people that that are really committed to participating in it um.
Geun-Hyung Kim: Manu called this Charter the best charter he'd ever seen written so I probably should have retired after after writing that but um so like being very clear about what your intended deliverables are which uh how you relate to other organizations so that you're not um you know sort of.
Geun-Hyung Kim: Overlapping too much so um so yeah that group has been really successful um in terms of you know sort of just figuring out which use cases they want to address um coming up with data formats that are appropriate for it they've um you know even promoted some of the work into IMS or now called 1 Ed Tech um uh standards so um yeah that was the context on VCU.
Harrison_Tang: Uh by the way will um I think your your sound is a little bit on the lighter side we cannot really see you.
Geun-Hyung Kim: Yeah we had for a while a practice in the ccg of saying um the task forces must report out status with some certain Cadence so um I don't know if that's done much anymore but it was a good practice on both sides um yeah.
Harrison_Tang: Actually Ted Ted you're in the queue.
TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): Yeah just quickly um task force is roughly like a subcommittee um we'll get together outside of the main sessions to.
TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): Work on a work item 1 or more work items um whether or not the task force reports out its results to the main group sort of depends on the work item whether that makes sense uh.
TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): It may be set out as a work item because nobody else is interested and only that sub Cruise group cares and so they don't need to report out necessarily unless there is a real Milestone hit if it's just ongoing discussions then there's nothing to report out and that's fine.
TallTed_//_Ted_Thibodeau_(he/him)_(OpenLinkSw.com): Yeah hopefully that helps clarify things a little bit.
Harrison_Tang: By the way dimitry uh I think you're in the queue do you have a comment or question.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Yeah I was wondering um.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Just just had a random idea as as we're talking about this about how to improve connections between the task force and uh the main ccg.
Dmitri Zagidulin: And I was wondering.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Be worth uh working it in to part of our boilerplate ritual right when we say are their introductions in the introductions and Community announcements uh what if we had a section uh any of the task forces or work item leaders want to report something right so just just leave it at that right as a reminder as a weekly reminder to connect.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Yeah that's a good that's a good idea.
Harrison_Tang: You're in the queue.
Geun-Hyung Kim: Yeah I mean I we I remember these conversations at Joe's on the call as well um we really leaned into um uh embracing this uh Power of Silence awkward silence um you know and calling on on people to make them accountable to uh to to the work items so I think for a while it was part of the role that we would say like um you know we would tell task forces you will uh report out on this date and then so we would call on them but then also we would cycle through work items and um even if people so it was just part of our ritual and um often the answer would be nothing's been done nothing's been done but it was still kind of a good forcing function because eventually progress would be made and I do think that we were trying to do something for a while about you know after there's not progressed after.
Geun-Hyung Kim: After a certain time.
Geun-Hyung Kim: Uh the chairs put a comment in the issue and say this doesn't progress by X time we will assume it's on hold um because I think for a while we were just dealing with so many work items that we had to start being a little more forceful about to make sure our attention could focus.
Harrison_Tang: Joe do you have a comment.
Joe Andrieu: Uh yeah I just yeah in part to plus 1 the awkward silence um is a good way to get people to speak but also queue up.
Joe Andrieu: So that people have an advanced notice that uh Hey in 2 weeks we're going to want an update from you guys or hey we need something in the in the next month we'd love to have you when's convenient for you right so you could you could have a queue where you're trying to work through the work items to to give them an explicit uh Catalyst to come in and give a report um and then I want to Echo what uh Kim was saying inflected as triage like I think the group should do some triage about the current work items and then have that be a regular practice like are these things active enough to keep active I don't think we asked that question as a group very often and I think we could we could get into that process um both maybe in the the chair meetings when you guys are planning what's our next topic we're going to talk about um and and even bubble up into here uh into this you know weekly call.
Joe Andrieu: Let me add to that is to also ask how can we help.
Joe Andrieu: So you know within the last year um the folks at checked proposed a a work item uh related to link resources or something named similar to that because I had similar work so we had some engagement about it um and I'd love to see that like moving forward I haven't heard of it moving forward but a question you know we might bubble up to Anchor or other folks who are involved in that is hey how can we help.
Harrison_Tang: So I do I do have a quick comment I think if someone has a proposal and would like to kind of present it uh during the meeting like uh we can also um you know hold a meeting um on our calendar to kind of discuss the proposal in more details uh the ccg does have like more than 500 uh members and we do have an active uh you know email list and active discussions um and then the you know addition to that we're trying to uh leverage CCT as a as a kind of a Nexus uh to connect different uh communities in the decentralized identity space so I think it will be it's actually a good form to actually submit your ideas and then solicit feedback from different uh people in the community so in the different companies so so yeah so I think uh you know that's just 1 know I want to add is that it doesn't have to be just an idea.
Harrison_Tang: Um but we can actually have more in depth discussion on our calendar as well.
<kim_duffy> 2016ish were the days!
<kim_duffy> Joe -- did you make that diagram? It looks like a Joe thing
<harrison_tang> Joe likes Gannt charts?
<joe_andrieu> LOL. I think @manu gets credit for that one
<kim_duffy> He likes fanciful comprehensive diagrams
<joe_andrieu> I do like fanciful comprehensive diagrams
Joe Andrieu: Uh yeah I just want to comment on that the um.
Joe Andrieu: The roadmap um I I do think that was mayonnaise I had put 1 together for I think uh TPAC in Leon and uh I went I made a tragic failure which was I just thought through myself what might be in our future like how do we get to like information you can actually rely on because that's what VCS are sort of about um and so I made a road map that really didn't have any um grounding um so I don't know how useful it was 1 of the challenges that we have as a community is there is no single entity who has uh funding and emission to say hey here's how we're going to schedule how we realize our mission right so it's it's hurting cats and so the road map is more a discovery of where are we in the different things we might do together as opposed to a top-down statement of this is what we're going to do in q1 and if we get that done in q1 then Q2 will move to this right so it's a different notion of road map I just want to invite the group to consider.
Harrison_Tang: Yeah I just want to uh make a note not necessary on the work items but uh I would just uh encourage people to uh kind of share their ideas and also maybe news that uh they've seen that's identity related on our mailing list uh I think Stephen Curry mostly uh most recently kind of shared uh MIT research paper um meaty right and then I think Manu does that uh several people do that too but I would just encourage more people to do that um.
Harrison_Tang: Like uh we.
Harrison_Tang: I have a feeling like some people might feel a little bit right um because I I too uh was in that uh situation uh years ago uh to kind of uh share their thoughts right in the public forum uh especially something as technical as ccg but I would just uh encourage people to leverage that mailing list uh we used to have a little bit more spicy comments uh in the years past uh not recently I don't know exactly what happened maybe our.
Harrison_Tang: Every meeting past scare people off but uh but I I actually enjoy those kind of spicy comments and if you really get out of hand the the the cultures will actually kind of pull people off the side uh you only happen once in the past 2 years or so uh but I I would just say hey you know encourage people to kind of make comments uh straight up what they heard um and you know that's have a little bit more um conversations and I I I personally really appreciate those conversations.
Geun-Hyung Kim: Yeah in terms of the kind of work items you know I was thinking about like the 2016 ish was definitely the um you know felt like a Heyday of having you know this.
Geun-Hyung Kim: There wasn't as much fragmentation as there is now so like I at the recent IBEW um what really stood out is that everyone is speaking different languages about you know the technical Stacks are so different these there's you know every day I wake up there's a new VC format and it's fine you know everyone's going to support all of them but it's really increasingly hard to even talk about how to you know what's in common for them um so that that really stands out as a sort of like broad concern I think you know this group has done a great job of getting all the groups into report out and um you know so that at least people are aware of what's happening and perhaps a an area a good thing to focus on that could cut through it would be something you know much more use case right.
<kaliya_identity_woman> Just so you know I was using the APP on my phone this morning to dial in and there was no audio. (Just got home so now I'm here).
Geun-Hyung Kim: Best practices or something like that oriented ideally you know to the point of having someone drive it like it does make the most sense if someone's got some skin in the game for it so ideally if it's aligned with their business goals um.
Geun-Hyung Kim: But but yeah it it just stands out that a lot of the things we were doing then is harder now because the um you know because a lot of the core data models are are sort of going in a lot of different directions but um you know also the point to unifying like to the point that uh people will ultimately want to be interoperable how do you how do you reconcile that so that's a a challenge and possibly opportunity as well.
Geun-Hyung Kim: Yeah and we've done that in the past like we have liaison relationships and so for a while um back in when it was called encrypted data vaults like that was a co-run um you know uh sort of work items so there is a precedent for that kind of thing.
Geun-Hyung Kim: Yeah I mean I think I want to go back to Harrison's point about like you know I don't I don't know um how to get past the challenge of you know getting people to have sort of I don't know if it's lack of confidence to sort of speak up share their perspective but you could also think about it is like you know so people are taking the time to join the call like it would be really interesting to hear from people just you know.
Geun-Hyung Kim: Get over the awkwardness of it and you know why are you here what could you get out of it um I think that it would be really good to hear just people's thoughts on that um you know I mean I guess there's a aspect of staying on top of the news in decentralized identity but um I it is a good ongoing um focus for people like um what could you get out of this if you know what could what could these sort of groups be doing such that um you your job would be easier or you could you're you know you could be more impactful those kinds of things so um I do want to go back to sort of Harrison's point that comes out of the meronem discussion which is great.
<laura_paglione> As a newcomer to the community, I very much value that this forum provides an exposure to the broad and varied topics
Harrison_Tang: By the way well there's a comment from Laura uh she says that as a newcomer to the community I very much value that this form provides an exposure to the broad and very topic and I and I agree with that so Laura do you have anything else to add or.
Laura_Paglione: Uh not really but except to say that um you know I don't I have no idea what I don't know about and it's been helpful I mean I've only been going coming to these meetings for the last couple of months and.
Laura_Paglione: Having this many different topics coming at me um helps me to put a framework around the overall field uh and maybe once I have more of a framework I'd be able to like have conversations or um you know provide comments or get involved but right now there's it's just so broad it's hard to get my arms around everything.
Harrison_Tang: And and I want to ask something that uh you know I think I shared with the community before like I joined this group uh thanks to Kalia and then I just want to kind of learn about the Southside identity and decentralized identity space and ccg has helped me do that uh quite a bit and as a culture I have the luxury to just uh invite uh people that I think uh I can learn from so really uh thankful for what ccg uh has brought to me and uh in regards to work items 1 of the things that I.
Harrison_Tang: always want.
Harrison_Tang: Work on but haven't had the time to uh uh Works related to trust Frameworks I think we have a lot of uh.
Harrison_Tang: Topics uh and work items in regards to uh basically the technology side of things like whether its data schema uh the cryptography you know uh.
<laura_paglione> I would love to work on Trust frameworks with you.
<gerald_glickman> Also very interested in learning about and contributing to trust frameworks in any way that I can
Harrison_Tang: Exchange uh kind of protocols and those kind of things but at the end of the day um you know trust is not just about technology it's about processes and people as well right so so I think any entity can create a decentralized identifiers and uh um you know and how do you actually uh make sure that uh how do you know that you can trust this particular entity and uh 1 can say that uh trust inherently is decentralized uh and it depends on what fires want to do but I think for all intents and purposes for regular folks the Layman's out there they just want to know if there's a framework that they can trust right so 1 of the things that I think will be great for Ci or any of the companies out there is to kind of create this.
Harrison_Tang: uh um.
Harrison_Tang: Centralized framework right but something uh decentralized in a way that it's a open Community right so it's not owned by the single entity or a company um but you know a trust framework uh to talk about hey you know what issuers and verifiers that people can trust so anyway so if people are interested in this just uh pay me and then the hopefully uh if there's enough interest that kind of motivates motivates and pushes me uh to to work on this kind of things that I always want to work on but haven't had time to.
Harrison_Tang: Uh sorry dimitry you're on the queue.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Yeah so I wanted to uh I know we're almost at time but I wanted to uh say big plus 1 to what you said about trust Registries and in general 1 of the 1 of the reasons I find this group incredibly valuable is its forward-looking it's if you can think of uh if I can make an analogy of the standards groups rail uh laying down railroad tracks.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Uh the sort of 1 of the purposes of the ccg is to scout ahead make sure there's no uh there's no obstacles uh like level the ground and all that stuff so 1 so trust registry is is an excellent example uh 1 of the things that.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Uh for example I'm uh 1 of the co-chairs of the VC edu task force and 1 of the things we ran into in implementation is exactly that I need for.
Dmitri Zagidulin: For trust.
Dmitri Zagidulin: And so 1 of 1 of the things the task force uh would be kicking off um with the digital credentials Consortium and credential engine is this overview of existing trust registry Frameworks comparison and uh further discussion but uh similarly we ran into the problem of uh the render method uh render the problem of verifiable governance and all uh the Eternal search for uh really good did methods and and next week's uh trusted did web is an excellent example of that um big thing about this so all all of that to say is uh this group is doing important work clearing the way for credentials work and I absolutely agree with you that specifically no issue or lists and Trust Registries is I think the number 1 technical CH Technical and organizational challenge facing the credentials community so.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Definitely uh we should take a more um active role in.
Harrison_Tang: Thank you Dimitri and by the way I just want to uh.
Harrison_Tang: Say big thank you Dimitri over the years for that kind of teaching me a lot of things so just want to publicly acknowledge uh your help so thanks a lot.
<jeff_o_-_humanos> Thx All!
<harrison_tang> Thanks!!