The W3C Credentials Community Group

Verifiable Claims and Digital Verification

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Credentials CG Telecon

Minutes for 2020-06-23

Wayne Vaughn: Connections?
Manu Sporny is scribing.
Heather Vescent: Welcome to the call - standard IP note - standard queueing notes.

Topic: Introductions / Reintroductions

Heather Vescent: Anyone want to introduce themselves / reintroduce yourself?
Lucy Yang: I'm currently involved in COVID-19 credentials initiative... here to learn.
Heather Vescent: Sam, Dan?
Sam Smith: Hi Sam Matthews Chase, founder of Venn Agency - actively building in VC space for last couple of years, very involved in community early on, Kim brought me in, worked w/ Kim a lot on Loci (our product) - credential system to replace fire evacuation maps and safety training, to ensure anyone going into a building has a basic copy of map and prove that they've seen it.
Sam Smith: Creates credential w/ BC government and orgbook guys - keep people safe - about to go to market in Vancouver, excited to be back with everyone again.
Heather Vescent: Sounds great, maybe when you're ready, you can give us a presentation of what we've been working on.
Dan Pape: Hi Heather, congrats on the new Chair position, working on an off with Digital Contract Design, BTCR DID Methods, get that going.
Dan Pape: Haven't been here lately, conflict with another call, but wanted to join this one to hear new Chair soapbox.
Heather Vescent: Maybe you can give us an update of BTCR later.

Topic: Announcements and Reminders

Sam Smith: Thnks for this link @by_caballero
Heather Vescent: Identiverse going on, second week - going through August 7th.
Heather Vescent: It kicked off last week, missed Ian Glaser's talk - any quick report out from folks?
Heather Vescent: Q
Heather Vescent: Good stuff happening based on Twitter.
Heather Vescent: Anil John - Industry Day now - Call Details & Application Form @ (Look for the documents w/ the posting date of June 9, 2020 or later) Application Deadline @ July 10, 2020 - 12:00 PM PT DHS S&T SVIP Info & Eligibility Criteria @
Heather Vescent: Not hearing anyone, moving on. Happening now, Anil John's Industry day - beginning of the call - happening now - interested in call details, applications, on what he just sent.
Heather Vescent: Mention recurring CCG meetings - in addition to additional call today - VCEDU monday 8am PT - led by Kim.
Kim Hamilton Duffy: Verifiable Credentials for Education Task Force - run by me (MIT) and James (McMaster Univeristy) - that's where digital credentials consortium talks about standards/prototypes for educational use cases, but joined by other communities including well known groups in EDU space - IMS GLobal, PESC, IEEE groups.
Kim Hamilton Duffy: We're working on surveys, what's out there, relevant standards, different geographic areas. Now we're identifying different use cases, credentials in pilots, how can you link to competency use cases.
Heather Vescent: ANNOUNCEMENTS:
Dan Burnett: Voip, who's making noise?
Kim Hamilton Duffy: Folks from the publishing group have pointed out overlap - in general, deciding to talk about how these systems will get used in real world, every monday - 8am PT, 11am ET.
Kim Hamilton Duffy: Will send the link to our page.
Heather Vescent: DID Resolution calls... Mondays at 1pm... Markus Sabadello is running those.
Kim Hamilton Duffy: VC-EDU:
Heather Vescent: Secure Data Storage WG calls - Dmitri is one of the Chairs in that group.
Dmitri Zagidulin: Secure Data Storage - joint W3C CCG and DIF group - working on specification that is related to alot of credential identity work, once we have identities, keys, VCs... how can we store them securely - multilayer storage stack can be used to build higher level data servers like Solid like Identity Hubs and similar projects... we meet weekly, free to join if you sign IPR agreement, encourge folks interested in that stuff to drop by.
Heather Vescent: There is an OpenID Connect SIOP happening this Thursday, tickets are sold out - is anyone here planning to attend? Can you do a report out next week?
Wayne Vaughn: I will be attending and I will take the lead to give brief update next week.
Heather Vescent: Anything else that we didn't cover?
Heather Vescent: Q

Topic: Action Items

Heather Vescent: A little update - when getting up to speed on Co-Chair, there are a lot of action items.
Heather Vescent: One of the challenges we have is completing items...
Heather Vescent: It might make sense to go back to participants to check in and see where things are... lot has changed in context of need for these things, capabilities for technology, as we have new leadership, it makes sense to go through and see what status is on these things.
Heather Vescent: Let's have an honest look at where we are - true possibility of completing these - if you've been working on one of these items, I'll send an email asking questions about it - just an opprotunity to tell me what state is and either recommit or get it off of your plate. Will be contacting you in a week.
Heather Vescent: Wayne, kim, anything else regarding that?
Kim Hamilton Duffy: I have one thing, Action item -- process summary for VCWG - resolved over email - wanted to make sure.
Kim Hamilton Duffy: Sounds like Dan has written something up, Dan will ping group with that.
Kim Hamilton Duffy: Some combination of Dan and Manu will follow up.
Dan Burnett: The link is in issue, please take a look - Manu and I worked it up - manu came up with most of it, outline there, it should be turned into something fuller. We think it might be good to start with this process.
Dan Burnett: We can figure out where to send this next.
Dan Burnett: The context for this -- the Verifiable Credentials Maintenance WG is active now, that WG exists solely to provide IPR and scope charter checks, but not do any work... the expectation is that W3C CCG will do work and make proposals as pull requests and send to VCWG for review. That gorup will then gather long enough to review document pull request, see if it meets IPR requirements, if yes, goes forward as a maintenance change.
Wayne Vaughn: Oops
Heather Vescent: What's the next step?
Dan Burnett: People should comment.
Heather Vescent: What is the timeline? Is there a deadline?
Dan Burnett: There are people that have said they want to make some modifications. Orie wants to make some changes, for example. Feel free to set deadline if you wish, otherwise, when folks want to do something.
Heather Vescent: SHould we set two weeks for deadline for comments?
Dan Burnett: Sure, that's fine.
Dan Burnett: I don't wnat to create work for group, if people don't want to change document, ...
Heather Vescent: Yes, but don't want it to fall off... welcome to heather's project management... get ready to get pinned to deadlines. :)
Heather Vescent: I'll follow up with email to list, please make comments within two weeks, give it another week, have this be a topic for CCG... In three weeks from today, we'll discuss this, anyone make comments can make comments at that point, then dialog during this call, then week after that, we'll lock this down. In four weeks, this'll be knocked off of our todo list.
Heather Vescent: Juan, you're up.

Topic: DIF Virtual Face to Face Update

Heather Vescent: Q
Juan Caballero: I'm reading from my notes, soon to be a Medium post.
Juan Caballero: Just wanted to provide structure and major news items... all videos going on youtube. There will be a Medium post and links as well as links people can share in chat.
Juan Caballero: There were a good number of people there - about 101 people were observed in one of the sessions -- interop session -- update session -- somewhere near the middle.
Juan Caballero: After kick off logistics, first after introduction - code of conduct - IIW29 made an expanded code of conduct, voted on as we speak, within steering committee of DIF - more structure, more friendly to first timers, etc.
Juan Caballero: That is going live soon - then there was interop WG - had previously been interop project.
Juan Caballero: The refactoring/restructuring into WG is to have non-IPR protected WG that does not build anything, does not write specs, simply exists for coordination for DIF and adjacent groups - identify roadblocks to interop, best possible non-redundant home for roadblocks.
Juan Caballero: The new vision for interop group won't work w/o steady reliable attendance that are connected to adjacent communities.
Juan Caballero: That is being hashed out, first meeting was open to public, Friday 9am PT, 12pm ET, 6pm CET.
Juan Caballero: If anyone is interested in joining that, that is a long free-form session, Anil spoke a bit about how interop relates to Aries interop, SVIP interop, W3C interop processes, the goal of interop is to be as open as possible and as productive as possible.
Juan Caballero: Anyone that has been coming to CCG, folks are welcome from here, but if CCG doesn't show up, we're shutting it down! no pressure :)
Juan Caballero: Test suites, who hosts and maintains, big fan of modular things so that might be a big part of conversation friday - do come to that.
Juan Caballero: Three 1 hour sessions that were a cluster of WGs and work items.
Juan Caballero: What's going on in those groups report out, lot of comments on people sort of new to DIF, new to a lot of these groups, things they're working on that may or may not be congruous.
Juan Caballero: First of these was DID Layer and Protocol Layer groups, ID and Discovery group, sidetree WG - ion things, highlights there, if you haven't been -- ID and Discovery group, obviously connected to Markus' group at CCG, two sides of same kind, Universal Resolver -- little more production ready/grade.
Juan Caballero: Philip from Danube, making instances that are CI/CD - audit releases, integrate everything up to date, mark which drivers aren't updated, autodeprecate things falling out of compliance, exciting project, that's progressing.
Juan Caballero: Also talked about 3 things that are open sourced - key recovery schemes, Microsoft research -- from sam smith - john callahan, open sourcing biometric key recovery scheme.
Juan Caballero: These three things are going to be documented as complementary solutions, modular combinable solutions.
Juan Caballero: Did:peer going to be open sourced in coming months as well.
Juan Caballero: Something you can follow on Github...
Heather Vescent: Q
Adrian Gropper: We also have our Trust Over IP and reconstituted Sovrin Foundation come on the scene... not a question for Juan, but rather a comment or placeholder for our group here - I am getting confused by these parallel efforts and sort of feel like we need to address this - partition work around itnerop/governance - does someone have something more useful than what I just said?
Heather Vescent: I'm hearing concern around multiple work efforts and division of labor.
Adrian Gropper: I'm seeing an exploding number of parallel efforts.
Heather Vescent: There are some efforts to try and bring conversations between different groups to reduce these types of activities - the desire is always to minimize overlap. Reality is that no matter how much we want there to be one place to go, it just never seems to happen in tech space. But don't want to jump ahead to the soapbox, trying to facililate/streamline efforts. Is this a conversatin we should have in CCG?
Heather Vescent: Q
Sam Smith: I think best way to discuss is write an article... isn't really a here problem.
Juan Caballero: As far as interop group - I would make sure to show up in DIF group... maybe not a here problem.
Sam Smith: +1 Manu
Manu Sporny: YYY
Heather Vescent: Yes, these things happen elsewhere and we need to engage, not ideal, but it happens and we need to engage.
Heather Vescent: Any other comments around DIF F2F?
Juan Caballero: Correct: I would make sure to show up to THIS group (CCG)

Topic: New Chair Soapbox

Heather Vescent: We wanted to set stage for things we're thinking about doing in course of new leadership with this group. Kim, Wayne, one of you want to go first?
Kim Hamilton Duffy: I can go first, tried to convince Chairs not to have me do this, but it was a good idea. :)
Kim Hamilton Duffy: Looking forwrad to next year - just to reiterate some things I've said in the past - I've been in EDU space for a while. it's been interesting trying to merge educational credentials and use cases with emerging Decentralized Standards.
Kim Hamilton Duffy: What makes it better/worse is the prior art - ther eis a lot of work already done in defining schemas, but not based around decentrlaized trust, direct transfer between orgs, getting these to work in a decentrlaized framework to promote learner/recipient control is challenging. We have made progress.
Kim Hamilton Duffy: Some efforts in T3 Innovatio nNetwork and W3C CCG VCEDU - got VCs being used as interop wrapper, so that's good... but still have to make progress on value proposition, identity related standards, and also little focus on exchange protocols. Lot of work on data models, less on exchange protocols.
Kim Hamilton Duffy: Those are one of the intersting areas, other thing that comes up - first vertical where we find ourselves hitting real world use cases - to some extent, we don't know how to do basic things with VCs, like legal signature requirements, we know they can work but there is work is required.
Kim Hamilton Duffy: I'm itnerested in bringing in work items that are affected by those use cases, allow the standards we build here used in educational use cases and beyond, in some cases, we need to tweak/extend standards, others require just more education/discussion - interested in championing that over the next year.
Sam Smith: I love listening to you talk about credentials kim <3
Kim Hamilton Duffy: We are running into issues before others are, so use of standards in real use cases are very important ... second of three areas that are of interest.
Kim Hamilton Duffy: All of Chairs care about opening up participation, reflecting on situation we have now - non-tech folks feel like they can't contribute. In rush to get technical spec going, hitting checkmarks, we really do go heads-down on specs and fail to take use cases to next level, from broader basis, how do we start using these in real systems? Legal perspective, ethical, hold ourselves more accountable. With this set of chairs, strong focus on broadening
Kim Hamilton Duffy: That's one way, other way is more confrete around process overhead - how do we make sure people can contribute work items while keeping IPR concerns straight, but not saying "do everythin gin Github right away".
Juan Caballero: +1
Kim Hamilton Duffy: I think we can do better... way tthat could manifest, types of deliverable work items that CCG releases, Community Notes/Reports can serve as powerful statements. Would like us to contribute in that way, no need to write technical specs.
Kim Hamilton Duffy: Third is as we've alluded to - working with other communities, streamline how we work with other communities - minimize friction - endless rehashing of work that happens elsewhere.
Heather Vescent: Thanks Kim, very inspiring to hear what we're going to be doing.
Wayne Vaughn: Ultimately, I'd like to see diverse and productive work items make it through - want diverse perspectives, when I say "diversity" - but dimensions across tech/industry but also society. Like how do we interop with IETF, GNAP (TxAuth) -- figuring out next iteration after OAuth2 - have Credentials there... look at OpenID Connect.
Wayne Vaughn: Interested in technical interop - Linux Foundation - Hyperledger, Trust over IP, how can we foster collaboration w/ Oasis and DIF?
Wayne Vaughn: Permissioning frameworks... another kind of interop is with industry and government - VCEDU - supply chain, national identity systems, governments that are interested.
Wayne Vaughn: Any guidelines? Bad idea? We need to have discussion to get to those issues.
Wayne Vaughn: Society - large implications to our work, preliminary discussions with EFF, ID2020 - UNICEF and UN concerns, how can we reflect those perspectives into our technical work. I hope members here can choose what they want to hear about.
Juan Caballero: NZ!
Wayne Vaughn: Global initiative, CCG meeting accessible in APAC - 3 DID groups in South Korea, Japan, Singapore... Australia... Mattr is based there, get their involvement.
Wayne Vaughn: Also, hosting another meeting... doing an IP janitor and better communication infrastructure ... shout out to Manu that's been working on that ... hopefully we'll see something soon on that.
Heather Vescent: Q
Wayne Vaughn: Looking forward to helping on that.
Kim Hamilton Duffy: Heather, should we start next meeting with your soapbox?
Kim Hamilton Duffy: I want to make sure you have time
Heather Vescent: No need. I just need 1 min
Juan Caballero: Got through most of groups - didn't mention DID Auth demos and glossary group - cochair w/ glossary group - looking for people to help w/ next round of glossary.
Heather Vescent: I'm interested in many of the things that kim and wayne said -- wanted to take a few minutes... one item very important to me - that's about strategic planning and project management, I want to enable us a community to work better, more streamlined, and more messy... can put things in place that make it easy for us to do messy hard difficult work.
Heather Vescent: This is like a tomato cage, balance between order and chaos, too much order and you get rigidity and lack of creativity, you don't want to go too far in the other direction.
Heather Vescent: If you grow a tomato without a tomato cage, you get a plant on the ground, bugs spoiled fruit. However, if you get a tomato cage in place, you support the plan so it can produce the most.
Heather Vescent: I'm going to be doing some work on strategic planning in this community - don't need to have a background, I will lead, would love a colead -- also, will go through our historical work processes so they support the work we're getting done and support the way we work and change.
Heather Vescent: There are great processes that have been put in place by past chairs, at same time, things can get over complex... we'll go ahead and wrap up for now, more planning in the future.
Heather Vescent: If anyone has any questions, or if you want to present, please reach out.
Heather Vescent: That's it for today!